Some advice for Control4 diy'ers

[dogdvr]

Well Dan,

I can guarantee you I will not discuss it further with you.

But for future reference, let me break down a post for you,

"Well James,

I don't know why you are worried, after all you do not sell C4"

As you can see, this part of the post was addressed to James, not Dan. And last time I checked you are not the hall monitor for this forum.

Stay out of it.

"Master codes from dealers will still open the project up, so customers can switch dealers, they just can't have EX dealers program their system.

* HUGE CAVEOT*

I do not know any of this for a fact. these are rumors and maybe unfounded.

ALL details will be provided when Control4 releases 2.0"

This information was given to the community, if you have a problem with this information, then please correct me.

But when I talked to James, then consider it none of your business.

Good Day Sir

[urbanmark]

Control4 has chosen to limit the programming of their system to trained dealers to protect their image. There are systems out there that do not have this protection and when the programming is not done correctly makes the product look bad.

In my opinion, "bad C4 dealers" pose more of a threat to Control4's image than "C4 enthusiasts".... all the "good dealers" participating on this forum excluded, of course.

Alan... enjoy the honeymoon!

[GoGo Delicious]

Well James,

I don't know why you are worried, after all you do not sell C4.

For those that know me, which most really do not, you will know that above all I am a business person. I own one corporation that owns quite a few other companies. One of the companies under our corporate umbrella is DSW (Digital Studio Werks) which, to be honest, is one of the smallest companies I do own. As far as the question goes, it has nothing to do with selling Crestron vs C4, thats the shallow point of view and one most would take.

The Railroads had a lock on the transportation industry one point in time. Then came the automobile and then air flight. Little by little the railroads lost out in the transportation arena. Why?

The person who answers the question correctly will then know 1) why I asked the question and 2) why it's has nothing to do with Crestron, C4 etc.

[GoGo Delicious]

I agree with GoGo's implied concerns. (or maybe he sees this as a benefit if he sells a competing product ?)

How does crestron deal with this dealer vs DIYer trade-off?

Crestron does not support DIYer's at all. All sales and programming either goes through a Crestron dealer or CAIP (Crestron Authorized Independent Programmer) for programming only.

With that said, all Crestron training is free to the dealers. As a dealer I can sponsor a person, company or school and send them to the various Crestron classes at no cost and give them access to Crestron software. As far as a DIYer goes it's up to me as a dealer if I want to sponsor a DIYer (Maybe a DIYer wants to be a CAIP). Have I ever sponsored a DIYer? No, and I doubt that I will.

[RyanE]

As far as I know, none of the changes in 2.0 cause any dealer lock-in any more than any previous versions have had, which is to say:

* Any dealer can still service your system.

RyanE

[wingzz]

Well Dan,

I can guarantee you I will not discuss it further with you.

But for future reference, let me break down a post for you,

"Well James,

I don't know why you are worried, after all you do not sell C4"

As you can see, this part of the post was addressed to James, not Dan. And last time I checked you are not the hall monitor for this forum.

Stay out of it.

"Master codes from dealers will still open the project up, so customers can switch dealers, they just can't have EX dealers program their system.

* HUGE CAVEOT*

I do not know any of this for a fact. these are rumors and maybe unfounded.

ALL details will be provided when Control4 releases 2.0"

This information was given to the community, if you have a problem with this information, then please correct me.

But when I talked to James, then consider it none of your business.

Good Day Sir

wow, if you dont want people to respond to your posts on a semi public forum, go away and stick to emails, things posted here are for anyone to comment on and if you dont like it then take your ball and go home, geeze

[dannyboy]

As far as I know, none of the changes in 2.0 cause any dealer lock-in any more than any previous versions have had, which is to say:

* Any dealer can still service your system.

RyanE

This certainly makes me feel more comfortable. Thank-you

[dgbrown]

Control4 has chosen to limit the programming of their system to trained dealers to protect their image. There are systems out there that do not have this protection and when the programming is not done correctly makes the product look bad.

In my opinion' date=' "bad C4 dealers" pose more of a threat to Control4's image than "C4 enthusiasts".... all the "good dealers" participating on this forum excluded, of course.

Alan... enjoy the honeymoon![/quote']

I tend to agree with this perspective - there's a number (you pick your own #) of dealers out there that should not be. Selling off opening inventory and surplus inventory (we don't like s/w piracy but we'll fuel the market), shoddy programming, poor business practices, etc.

Depending on some anti-piracy licensing restrictions to protect your business is a week strategy. Grow some balls and do some business planning, differentiate your services and super serve the customer. The minute I saw this thread I knew it would be a magnet. You guys are really unbelievable wining about this.

Thanks for asking "the question" GoGo. And Ryan, thanks for the answer.

C4's current model is dated and not suited for the long term - trying to cultivate, maintain and expand will come at a snails pace - particularly when thinking about the 4store. I'm sure they'll figure it out though. JMHO.

[thecodeman]

The Railroads had a lock on the transportation industry one point in time. Then came the automobile and then air flight. Little by little the railroads lost out in the transportation arena. Why?

I'm going to take a stab and say that the railroads had a lock on transportation. Then they figured they could make more money on freight and gave the freight trains higher priority than the passenger service, ultimately causing passenger service to suffer horribly (previously passenger service had priority). Then along came the trucking industry which could go a lot of places trains couldn't or didn't, and airlines for passenger service. And in the end, rail lost a lot to both industries because they got greedy IMO. Now we need passenger rail service like high speed trains to compete with the airline industry and to counter the horrible traffic situations and red ozone days in metropolitan areas.

Boy talk about a tangent... sorry folks :/

[GoGo Delicious]

The Railroads had a lock on the transportation industry one point in time. Then came the automobile and then air flight. Little by little the railroads lost out in the transportation arena. Why?

I'm going to take a stab and say that the railroads had a lock on transportation. Then they figured they could make more money on freight and gave the freight trains higher priority than the passenger service' date=' ultimately causing passenger service to suffer horribly (previously passenger service had priority). Then along came the trucking industry which could go a lot of places trains couldn't or didn't, and airlines for passenger service. And in the end, rail lost a lot to both industries because they got greedy IMO. Now we need passenger rail service like high speed trains to compete with the airline industry and to counter the horrible traffic situations and red ozone days in metropolitan areas.

Boy talk about a tangent... sorry folks :/[/quote']

Very good stab.

So here is the answer. I gave a huge clue when I said "Transportation Industry." The railroads didn't see themselves in the "Transportation Industry" but rather they saw themselves in the "Railroad" industry, just as some only see me as a "Crestron" dealer and themselves as a "Control4" dealer.

When the automobile came around they laughed it off and rightly so as auto sales did not really take off until Ford started "assembling" his cars. At that point, if the railroad tycoons realized what industry they were in they would have invested HEAVILY in the auto industry. Think how quickly the auto industry would have grown and how far a head they would be by the time Ford rolled the first car off the assembly line if the railroad tycoons invested heavily in the auto industry after all they had billions. Now the railroad tycoons would have a large piece of the auto industry which would only make them wealthier. Take that same logic and apply it to the airline industry. Now the Gould's, Huntington's, Vanderbuilt's would have a lock on the Railroad, Auto and Airline industry and thus the transportation industry.

Now back to the question that started this

Well James,

I don't know why you are worried, after all you do not sell C4.

This is something that dogdvr would say to a railroad industry tycoon thats on a automotive industry tycoon forum "I don't know why you are worried, after all your not in the auto industry." Although I am a Crestron dealer, I realize what industry I am in (Hint, it is not the CI or automation industry). You have to look beyond the box, go beyond CI or Automation. If you believe you are in the CI or automation industry you are selling yourself short. Very short. Like I said earlier, I own a LLC that owns a quite a few companies. I have learned from the failure of the railroads and bought into the industry, not just the product, and thus C4 does matter.

Now back to our regularly scheduled discussions.

[wappinghigh]

This thread is getting weirder by the minute. Railroads. Automobiles. Airline Industry.

Doesn't C4 have a CEO who started in the Insurance industry?

Probably why the product is so successful. Priced to perfection, and with margins for everyone: Willy Loman, right up to the guy at the top

Most users (like me), are after a BIT more tweekability. That's all..please...so we don't have to get the dealer out to hold our hand EVERY time we want to change the toilet roll....

[tilimil]

Yeah let's talk more about how C4 uses software licensing the protect their dealers revenues. This is all about moving product and growing their business in a sustainable and scalable way. They don't have the resources or the ROI to sell and support their product in a direct model. Instead they offer the dealers a few points on the product and give them the service business. The dealer makes money and C4 sells more product. Unfortunately everyone on here that is not happy with their model (including me) is probably such a minority in their CURRENT customer base that we don't matter. The problem is they are missing a huge market as generation Y comes into the marketplace with expendable income.

I think C4 is missing the boat on how the web and social networks can transform their business model without leaving behind their existing customer/dealer network. Why don't they offer free online training, certification and forums for Gen Y consumers that want to do it themselves? This would cultivate the social networks (like this website) and they would find that people would start supporting the product themselves and innovation would go through the roof. Generation Y would much rather find the solution to the problem on the web and fix it themselves than call a dealer. These "dealer only" portals where they keep information to themselves instead of empowering the customer is a model that cannot last. I hope C4 figures it out or a one of their burgeoning competitors does.

Found the quote below and I think that this sums it up quite nicely:

"So what does this all mean from a customer service perspective? Generation Y is the growing sector in the consumer market today; we baby boomers are on the way out and so are the preferences we have for real conversations with real people. These are still needed as the ultimate in resolving issues but the "instant gratification generation" want to be able to solve their issues quickly and cheaply using the channels they know and understand. If we get it right they are happy and sometimes they tell their friends; if we get it wrong then the whole planet knows 5 minutes later as the viral messages bloom across the networks. Companies must seriously address these customer service challenges with this generation; it's not a choice of whether to address it, it's a question of when."

http://www.customerthink.com/blog/how_does_generation_y_view_customer_service

Tim

[Kevin L]

you can currently change the system password in 1.8.2 but its possible to simply reset the password

as far as 2.0 is concerned because its not out you cant really say if its going to stay the same or not

[dgbrown]

So I'm wondering how the dealer community sees themselves: true innovators, installers, service industry, or other ?

[xc420]

Yeah let's talk more about how C4 uses software licensing the protect their dealers revenues. This is all about moving product and growing their business in a sustainable and scalable way. They don't have the resources or the ROI to sell and support their product in a direct model. Instead they offer the dealers a few points on the product and give them the service business. The dealer makes money and C4 sells more product. Unfortunately everyone on here that is not happy with their model (including me) is probably such a minority in their CURRENT customer base that we don't matter. The problem is they are missing a huge market as generation Y comes into the marketplace with expendable income.

I think C4 is missing the boat on how the web and social networks can transform their business model without leaving behind their existing customer/dealer network. Why don't they offer free online training, certification and forums for Gen Y consumers that want to do it themselves? This would cultivate the social networks (like this website) and they would find that people would start supporting the product themselves and innovation would go through the roof. Generation Y would much rather find the solution to the problem on the web and fix it themselves than call a dealer. These "dealer only" portals where they keep information to themselves instead of empowering the customer is a model that cannot last. I hope C4 figures it out or a one of their burgeoning competitors does.

Found the quote below and I think that this sums it up quite nicely:

"So what does this all mean from a customer service perspective? Generation Y is the growing sector in the consumer market today; we baby boomers are on the way out and so are the preferences we have for real conversations with real people. These are still needed as the ultimate in resolving issues but the "instant gratification generation" want to be able to solve their issues quickly and cheaply using the channels they know and understand. If we get it right they are happy and sometimes they tell their friends; if we get it wrong then the whole planet knows 5 minutes later as the viral messages bloom across the networks. Companies must seriously address these customer service challenges with this generation; it's not a choice of whether to address it, it's a question of when."

http://www.customerthink.com/blog/how_does_generation_y_view_customer_service

Tim

+1

Control4 is EXTREMELY EASY to program, most of the members on this forum could easily program their own system. I can't stress this enough it's VERY VERY EASY to program. As a matter of fact, it damn near programs itself! I think Control4 is locking down ComposerPro to hide this fact and protect their dealer base.

I can understand going through a dealer to purchase equipment and for the initial install 'maybe', but to lock us out of our own system afterwards is absolutely ridiculous.

DON'T UPGRADE!!

[henniae]

+1

Control4 is EXTREMELY EASY to program, most of the members on this forum could easily program their own system. I can't stress this enough it's VERY VERY EASY to program. As a matter of fact, it damn near programs itself! I think Control4 is locking down ComposerPro to hide this fact and protect their dealer base.

I can understand going through a dealer to purchase equipment and for the initial install 'maybe', but to lock us out of our own system afterwards is absolutely ridiculous.

DON'T UPGRADE!!

What makes you think you will be locked out of you system?

[ILoveC4]

I would imagine he means that he won't be able to download Composer Pro and make changes about his system as he see's fit. I know people that share that concern.

EDIT to add: I don't know that is what he is saying, just what it sounds like to me. I have know idea who XC420 is, or if he has Composer Pro. That is just how I read it.

[RyanE]

If Control4 was locking it down to now allow users to see how easy it is to program, they would also discontinue Composer HE.

It's sold on how easy it is to install and program. That's been a benefit from day one.

ComposerPro actually *started out* with software protection, so this is really nothing new, it's just that it had issues and was removed. Now it's coming back.

Control4, despite some early adopters not being dealers and still getting software, and complaints on the forums, has always been a dealer-installed system.

RyanE

[wappinghigh]

As a customer, not a dealer, what customers want is a good initial outcome, and on ongoing positive experience. Sure we haven't spent mega dollars on an over the top Crestron, AMX or Savant system, but we have spent a fair amount all the same. And if customers want to tweek...let them tweek. They'd be insane to lock things down.

And it is to be remembered a purchase from Control4 is more than likely from discretionary money. ie Money that is left over. That could have been spent on another positive experience (like a holiday, new diamond ring for our ladies, another hobby, or whatever). C4 is a luxury item. Not a necessity. Nobody can seriously argue Home Automation is an essential expense of daily living. Like Bread, power, heat and water. So if the customer becomes unhappy, they'll spend this elsewhere. The backlash will be severe. They won't add to their setup. They will put the left over cash into something different in the homebuild or renovation.

The point I am trying to make is Customer 1st. Customer Second. And third rule...don't forget the first two.

That's why I made the point about the Insurance Industry. If selling to the dealers is all that C4 thinks about (the analogy here is keeping the life insurance salesman happy and ignoring the policyholder's interests) they are on a hiding to nowhere IMHO.

[EagleMoon]

My two cents.

1. There is no debate about whether owners should be able to configure their Control4 system; that is a question settled by ComposerHE -- of course we are allowed to make changes. The debate is about where the line should be drawn between owner and dealer control.

2. Taking the Microsoft analogy from a different perspective, imagine if you had to call the dealer where you bought your computer anytime you wanted to install a new hard disk, video card, memory or new application. Desktop computer use exploded for lots of reasons but one important one was the early adoption by corporations. Do you think corporations would have put one on every person's desk if changes and upgrades were like making such a change to the centralized PBX or mainframe computer? Yet that is currently the model for Control4.

The point of that ramble is that the current model may be working okay now, but it's shortsighted and will lead to a relatively stagnant market that allows competing, open technologies to overtake and destroy it. Like the railroad analogy.

And to those who say we knew the deal when we bought Control4: well, of course we did. No one is suggesting otherwise. This is a philosophical debate that affects the long-term viability of the system we all like. It is perfectly okay for us to agitate for changes and more openness, whether here among users and dealers, to our own dealer, or to Control4 directly when given the chance. Telling people basically to "take it or leave it" is not constructive for the discussion and is not going to encourage people who might be just now considering a Control4 system to become owners.

[wappinghigh]

100% +1

My personal opinion. The line needs to drift a bit more towards owner control (as apposed to dealer). At least easy tasks like device, room and zone name changing. Tweeks to the GUI. And downloading upgrades should be customer based...I mean having to have my dealer hang around and make several phone calls just to upgrade Composer HE 1.6, to 1.82. This was embarassing for the dealer. And just silly.

[rtavk4]

Its only a matter of time before the licensing system gets cracked imo. The system is not that complicated, I picked up a HC-300 and Pro and had my multi room system running in about a day and a half. Personally I think the whole dealer only bit is a bad idea there are a lot of DIYers out there and cutting them out of the loop just means they will do something else or hack your system. And I have dealt with a lot of Dealers etc who are actually completely incompetent, even people on these forms mock dealers from different regions. Not sure why I would want to pay high rates to have someone, who others in their field call incompetent, carry out a relatively simple task, just because they have a letter from C4.

[wappinghigh]

Its only a matter of time before the licensing system gets cracked imo. The system is not that complicated, I picked up a HC-300 and Pro and had my multi room system running in about a day and a half. Personally I think the whole dealer only bit is a bad idea there are a lot of DIYers out there and cutting them out of the loop just means they will do something else or hack your system. And I have dealt with a lot of Dealers etc who are actually completely incompetent, even people on these forms mock dealers from different regions. Not sure why I would want to pay high rates to have someone, who others in their field call incompetent, carry out a relatively simple task, just because they have a letter from C4.

Yep. Spot on. The whole dealer control only for anything but menial tasks "model", breaks down if dealers aren't up to speed, and the customer ends up knowing more about the product than the dealer. I'm lucky I have an excellent dealer. Others aren't obviously so fortunate...

[NkySpike65]

Plan and simple....

Will Composer HE work (with) in Composer 2.0?

[RyanE]

Yes, the 2.0 version of ComposerHE will work with your upgraded 2.0 system.

I certainly have never argued that there aren't people on this forum and others who are definitely capable of setting up their own systems.

That just isn't currently Control4's business model. Am I saying 'love it or leave it'? Definitely not.

Many people have done what I consider the best "legal" option at this point: Find a dealer who you can work with for things that are dealer-only, and do the rest with HE.

RyanE