Some advice for Control4 diy'ers

[rayk32]

Yeah let's talk more about how C4 uses software licensing the protect their dealers revenues. This is all about moving product and growing their business in a sustainable and scalable way. They don't have the resources or the ROI to sell and support their product in a direct model. Instead they offer the dealers a few points on the product and give them the service business. The dealer makes money and C4 sells more product. Unfortunately everyone on here that is not happy with their model (including me) is probably such a minority in their CURRENT customer base that we don't matter. The problem is they are missing a huge market as generation Y comes into the marketplace with expendable income.

I think C4 is missing the boat on how the web and social networks can transform their business model without leaving behind their existing customer/dealer network. Why don't they offer free online training, certification and forums for Gen Y consumers that want to do it themselves? This would cultivate the social networks (like this website) and they would find that people would start supporting the product themselves and innovation would go through the roof. Generation Y would much rather find the solution to the problem on the web and fix it themselves than call a dealer. These "dealer only" portals where they keep information to themselves instead of empowering the customer is a model that cannot last. I hope C4 figures it out or a one of their burgeoning competitors does.

Found the quote below and I think that this sums it up quite nicely:

"So what does this all mean from a customer service perspective? Generation Y is the growing sector in the consumer market today; we baby boomers are on the way out and so are the preferences we have for real conversations with real people. These are still needed as the ultimate in resolving issues but the "instant gratification generation" want to be able to solve their issues quickly and cheaply using the channels they know and understand. If we get it right they are happy and sometimes they tell their friends; if we get it wrong then the whole planet knows 5 minutes later as the viral messages bloom across the networks. Companies must seriously address these customer service challenges with this generation; it's not a choice of whether to address it, it's a question of when."

http://www.customerthink.com/blog/how_does_generation_y_view_customer_service

Tim

+1

If I buy it, pay to have it installed and then break it by screwing with it ... it should be my choice alone ... just like every other appliance in my house. If I can't fix it then I call in an expert and pay them money to fix my screw up ... dealer still makes their money.

My wife works in TV as an "on air host" in Washington DC and I suggested to her that she might do a piece on my dealer and the home automation industry as a whole but based on this discussion I'm rethinking the value of that. Most people don't want appliances they don't have "full control" to modify or improve installed in their homes that require a service call to a dealer.

Closed systems are doomed. The only closed systems that provide services to consumers really left in this country are utility companies (gas and electric). Even they are going to be forced to change as more people become "green" and start generating their own energy. It's already happening in the telecom industry with VoIP and now it's happening to the television networks with HULU and indie content providers.

What's funny is Gen Y and beyond will be hacking all this stuff and running their own OPEN SOURCE home automation code on it ... just like they've done to XBOXs, Playstations, iPhones and soon to be ... iPads. It'll have the Control4 logo on the box but the code will be something else entirely.

@Control4 - if you want your product to be ubiquitous and installed in every home ... sell ComposerPro to the folks who want it, sell service contracts that are maintained by your dealer network when endusers break their systems and be Control4 not CONTROLfreaks ... ala Steve Jobs.

[rayk32]

My two cents.

1. There is no debate about whether owners should be able to configure their Control4 system; that is a question settled by ComposerHE -- of course we are allowed to make changes. The debate is about where the line should be drawn between owner and dealer control.

2. Taking the Microsoft analogy from a different perspective, imagine if you had to call the dealer where you bought your computer anytime you wanted to install a new hard disk, video card, memory or new application. Desktop computer use exploded for lots of reasons but one important one was the early adoption by corporations. Do you think corporations would have put one on every person's desk if changes and upgrades were like making such a change to the centralized PBX or mainframe computer? Yet that is currently the model for Control4.

The point of that ramble is that the current model may be working okay now, but it's shortsighted and will lead to a relatively stagnant market that allows competing, open technologies to overtake and destroy it. Like the railroad analogy.

And to those who say we knew the deal when we bought Control4: well, of course we did. No one is suggesting otherwise. This is a philosophical debate that affects the long-term viability of the system we all like. It is perfectly okay for us to agitate for changes and more openness, whether here among users and dealers, to our own dealer, or to Control4 directly when given the chance. Telling people basically to "take it or leave it" is not constructive for the discussion and is not going to encourage people who might be just now considering a Control4 system to become owners.

+++1

[rayk32]

Yes, the 2.0 version of ComposerHE will work with your upgraded 2.0 system.

I certainly have never argued that there aren't people on this forum and others who are definitely capable of setting up their own systems.

That just isn't currently Control4's business model. Am I saying 'love it or leave it'? Definitely not.

Many people have done what I consider the best "legal" option at this point: Find a dealer who you can work with for things that are dealer-only, and do the rest with HE.

RyanE

Does "legal" mean that Control4 would potentially go after someone who has acquired and installed a Control4 system that was not purchased through a Control4 dealer. Does that also mean that Control4 would slap a dealer for providing support to a system that wasn't purchased through a dealer? Is Control4 encouraging dealers to withhold support to people who have acquired products outside of the dealer network? Would Control4 not honor a warranty in those situations? What exactly do you mean?

[EagleMoon]

Many people have done what I consider the best "legal" option at this point: Find a dealer who you can work with for things that are dealer-only, and do the rest with HE.

RyanE

I think that's a reasonable approach -- for now. But it doesn't solve the question of where the line should be. I assure you that it's currently FAR too restrictive against owners.

I'm still a rookie with my three-month-old system, but two specific cases in point:

1. Imagine that I buy a simple analog music source (basic -- not Control4 -- XM dock or an Apple Airport Express). I might like to connect those to my Control4 8-zone amp and select them as a source via the remotes. As far as I can tell today, I have to call my dealer to set that up. To which I can only say, "Are you kidding me!" -- I'm talking about a simple analog audio source, not control of the add-in component and not onscreen display of information from it. No drivers, no nothing except a button with appropriate label on the GUI that switches the current room to that source input on the amp. If I can add that to my non-Control4 system in our other house and add it to my $250 Harmony remote, I ought to be able to add it to my $15,000 Control4 system without dealer involvement.

2. I have a Control4 thermostat and I can use the Control4 GUI to set up the 4 programs for each day of the week. Yet in ComposerHE I can basically change only the single, current set point. My dealer, of course, can use ComposerPro to make the exact same changes I can make from the GUI. But it's not "safe" to allow me to make the very same changes from Composeer? (And why not just use the GUI? Because what if I need to make a change while I'm away?)

If the dealer is going to do that for free, fine. But if he's going to charge me, then it's ridiculous. And utilmately, he's going to want to get paid for his time, so ultimately this is a problem for him, me and Control4. Here's why it's a problem:

Because I would feel it's ridiculous to pay for such simple things, I start looking for alternatives and refuse to get deeper involved with Control4. Dealer loses either because he does work for free to keep me happy or he loses because I don't buy more equipment from him. Control4 loses out on the additional sales, loses out because of a grumpy customer who may infect other potential customers, loses out because dealer is grumpy because Control4 forces him to spend time on free or low-margin work. Bad deals all around.

Now, in my actual case, I've put about $15k into my system and I'm going to spend a few $k more this year. But after that? Upgrades, enhancements, new capabilities depend on this getting opened up more. Further, a co-worker is building a house now who wanted to do Control4 after I described it to him. But he wanted control and even went so far as to check into becoming dealer. Control4 lost that sale and it is a much bigger system than mine.

[Seefour]

Its only a matter of time before the licensing system gets cracked imo. The system is not that complicated' date=' I picked up a HC-300 and Pro and had my multi room system running in about a day and a half. Personally I think the whole dealer only bit is a bad idea there are a lot of DIYers out there and cutting them out of the loop just means they will do something else or hack your system. And I have dealt with a lot of Dealers etc who are actually completely incompetent, even people on these forms mock dealers from different regions. Not sure why I would want to pay high rates to have someone, who others in their field call incompetent, carry out a relatively simple task, just because they have a letter from C4.[/quote']

Yep. Spot on. The whole dealer control only for anything but menial tasks "model", breaks down if dealers aren't up to speed, and the customer ends up knowing more about the product than the dealer. I'm lucky I have an excellent dealer. Others aren't obviously so fortunate...

Unfortunately, I don't personally feel that Control4 will ever direct much attention to end users wishing to have full control of our system. This type of thread and commentary pops up every now and again and the conversation and outcome does not change; "it's not C4's business model right now", "end users stop whining", "why do I know more than my dealer?", "you can do 99.99% with HE"......I have been a C4 user since the first products were shipped and I have been served by two dealers who didn't meet my expectations; my original dealer and now again, five years on. I certainly do feel though, that some good can come of end users continuing to voice interest to see full end user control.

There is no doubt a pool of end users who could clearly do at minimum, an equal job than his/her dealer and complete the overall project much faster. I imagine that this pool is larger and more skillful than perhaps some give credit (and for obvious reasons). No doubt there are some great dealers and some not so great. On these boards, the complexity of installing the system is sometimes over exaggerated but in fact a testament to the quality work C4 has done. However, the biz model is unfortunately currently what it is so may I suggest; a) get quotes from multiple dealers for work, provide them your expectations c) if you have dealer supply in your area ditch your current dealer when he/she does not meet those expectations d) be thankful if you do find a dealer who meets your expectations e) as Ryan stated earlier, work with a dealer only to the point of adding hardware to the system then do everything else yourself with HE. (edit). f) hope the biz model changes.

Also research other HA systems that you may like much better (e.g. Cinemar) and you may well have more fun building these yourself. I am particularly interested to see how Crestron develops their new Prodigy system over time...check it out...(http://www.crestron.com/solutions/prodigy_affordable_home_automation/). Cinemar is also an established product that can do everything you would likely need. It also has a very good forum for DIYers.

[NkySpike65]

Yes, the 2.0 version of ComposerHE will work with your upgraded 2.0 system.

RyanE

???????

Are you saying there will be a new "Composer HE 2.0" also?

Will this be a "FREE" upgrade if you already own Composer HE and decide to upgrade to 2.0? Or this an added cost ( double dip ) to me, just to do what I already payed $149 to do once already? I hope this not the case....

[RyanE]

Does "legal" mean that Control4 would potentially go after someone who has acquired and installed a Control4 system that was not purchased through a Control4 dealer. Does that also mean that Control4 would slap a dealer for providing support to a system that wasn't purchased through a dealer? Is Control4 encouraging dealers to withhold support to people who have acquired products outside of the dealer network? Would Control4 not honor a warranty in those situations? What exactly do you mean?

When I said "legal", and the reason I put it in quotes is that I'm not going to argue legality of having Pro, or accuse someone of "illegally" obtaining it, etc. I don't think that's terribly productive, and isn't really the issue as far as *I'm* concerned. When I say "legal", I mean "front door". That is, your *only* option to come through the "front door" with Control4 ATM is to work with a Control4 dealer to get the system installed and ongoing maintenance (adding / deleting equipment and making bindings).

I certainly can't speak for Control4 to say what Control4 would or would not do in terms of 'enforcing' that end users install through dealers, but I personally don't see Control4 taking those drastic kinds of tactics. IMHO, Control4 is too busy enough growing Control4 and developing new software and hardware products to try and enforce something like that.

Control4 *does* hear feedback from end users wanting additional functionality, and this kind of feedback was one of the driving forces behind Control4 creating ComposerHE, something you won't get from other 'big name' automation companies. Does that mean Control4 will change their model to give more control to end users? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. You're welcome to voice your opinions on the matter, but "where the line is at" is still up to Control4's management to make that decision.

I've seen the company inside and out, and trust in it's management to do what's best for the company.

Each of you has to make your *own* decision about whether the current position of the line is worth it for you.

I think I've said my peace on this subject, and will not likely be participating in this thread going forward.

Thanks.

RyanE

P.S. Just to answer NkySpike's question: Control4 has provided upgrades to ComposerHE, and I would think should continue providing updates for ComposerHE to those who have purchased ComposerHE. That said, you must have your system upgraded to 2.0, which is *not* a free upgrade, unless you've purchased newer equipment under Control4's free upgrade plan that has been mentioned here previously.

[NkySpike65]

Thanks RyanE, for the info.

[bhadams]

I have installed C4 for a number of years now and here's my personal observation:

The vast majority of our clients, nearly all, were happy to pay for dealer installation and programming, and were just as happy to rely on that dealer support in the future. I understand that there is a DIY segment out there, and as loud as it can be (and I believe it should be), it’s still too small and has been too small to change C4’s business model.

I guess I can’t blame C4 yet. There’s only so much development dollars out there. Do you spend the time on the 97% or the 3% DIYers?

[wingzz]

I have installed C4 for a number of years now and here's my personal observation:

The vast majority of our clients, nearly all, were happy to pay for dealer installation and programming, and were just as happy to rely on that dealer support in the future. I understand that there is a DIY segment out there, and as loud as it can be (and I believe it should be), it’s still too small and has been too small to change C4’s business model.

I guess I can’t blame C4 yet. There’s only so much development dollars out there. Do you spend the time on the 97% or the 3% DIYers?

but C4 doesn't have to do anything else, most of the users that are DIY would take responsibility for what they do and if they mess something up they will either pay to have it fixed or figure it out with help from other DIY'er.

the only thing C4 wout have to do is make Pro available to DIY'ers that want to take that risk

[C4RVA]

Seems like control4 is not using a valuable asset. Just like apple's iphone and the jail breaking movement.

So lets look at it. Here I am, a company trying to sell a product. I'm spending money on RD and software development. But I don't want everyone to be able to program my products. About 80 percent (likely more) has NO interest in trying to setup my products on their own. The other 20 percent (likely less) wants to play with my system, find bugs, workarounds, and post the information where I can get it for freeeeeee. The 20 percent are willing to find my private software and learn it with minimal help and turn around an provide valuable RD data ( IE to this forum, ect).

Now I can either embrace this group and support them with registered copies of my software that I can control and collect data from these people to improve my product with little cost to me.

OR

I can continue to try and keep my product locked down and wait for the generation Y kids to come jailbreak my product and develop better software.

So why not develop a RD group of control4 users that you can beta test on. A group that doesn't mind troubleshooting problems. That doesn't mind figuring it out. Most of all they don't mind posting write ups of problems, workarounds, wish lists, and spending lots of time (for free) reading and writing about your product.

Control4 could easily develop this group. They can even limit any software to only work with certain mac addresses on specific controllers. Why waste this valuable research?

I can personally attest that most dealers in VA aren't spending the time on this forum or developing their control4 skills. They don't have time to beta test stuff. Heck. Three of them didn't know c4 was putting out 2.0. They don't have the computer science skills to do more than the basics.

[xc420]

I think the best way to bring about a change in Control4's current business model is for end-users to get organized and voice our opinions collectively. Any ideas? or suggestions on how to proceed?

The number of end-users that want such a change is probably much bigger than management realizes.

Also, I'm sure end-users want their system open and hackable.

Not hackable in the sense that the neighbors can control your house. But in the sense that you are able to control devices with a homemade PC App if you choose or a third party piece of software.

[neildilgee]

This tread is getting way to much attention and all this to say nothing.

Yes we non dealers would love to be incharge of or whole system and I've never needed any dealer to advise me about what to buy. So I definitly don't think that they should be making money there. But we all have had some problems at one stage, some thing you needed advice or special programming for otherwise you be on this forum readind the Bshit I'm writing. I definatly think that a little flexability from C4 would be much appreciated but we shouldn't start throwing stones to the dealer. You might wake up one day and there won't be any help.

Be careful what you wish for.

But that's only my view.

Like Ryan said " I'm done with this tread"

[akg4y]

Its actually been a while since we had a thread like this... used to have one every 3-4 weeks.

Its a tough position for Control4... they need their dealer base for now both for distribution and expertise, plus a lot of time and money has been put into the dealer system (both by Control4 and by the dealers themselves). They could get around the distribution issue pretty easily, selling systems via Best Buy or whatnot, but if they allow users to fully program etc they alienate all of their dealers. At the same time, if they did so their product would probably grow by leaps and bounds (possibly at a rate they couldnt even handle yet). If they allow users to program then that would have both positive and negative effects, the positive being innovation and a wider network of support online and inperson, the negative being people who dont know what theyre doing and screwing up their systems (among others).

The main problem I have with the current system is there are a lot of bad dealers, in fact most every dealer Ive dealt with has had issues with responsiveness and even some of the better dealers know less about some things than I do because I frequent the forums. The simple fact is the person that has the most interest in making my system "just right" for me, is me. Its not worth it for a dealer to spend 20 hours figuring out how to solve my unique problems unless I pay him $50-100/hr for it, and for many of these problems its not worth me paying $2000 to get those little issues fixed. However, seeing as how I will spend time figuring out how to fix those problems anyhow, I wish I was able to do so.

I can see both sides of the story here and as has been said before the best solution in my mind is to create an in-between category of power users that have the ability to program their own systems (but not other peoples'). I would be happy to pay $50/month for the ability to do that, Id save well more than that on dealer costs, and in the end I would probably spend much more on Control4 in general AND I would be able to convince many more of my friends to take the plunge. As it is, when my friends ask me if they should get Control4 my current response is wait and see, but for now no. Why? In my experience (now 3-4 dealers) dealer responsiveness leaves a lot to be desired. If I need a change made often times I need it done within 24-48 hours and it seems that is too much to ask, even for remote programming.

[Ringold]

I absolutely love c4 products. However, If I did not have a means to make modifications, I would have ditched it long ago. My Local A/V business often fails to return phone calls and messages. They seem to have become less responsive after doing the initial installation. And, unfortunately, there is no local alternative. I'm sure my experience is not an isolated one.

I do however, like the c4 product. C4 should understand the situation of losing good customers who have a passion for their product if they do not allow FULL end user programming. Even more, I'm not sure why c4 would want to associate such a great product with individuals such as the above.

End users should voice their opinion to c4 in some organized fashion. (Who will take that charge????) I'm not sure of the best way to achieve this, but if enough individuals were represented, i'm sure change could occur.

[urbanmark]

I can see both sides of the story here and as has been said before the best solution in my mind is to create an in-between category of power users that have the ability to program their own systems (but not other peoples'). I would be happy to pay $50/month for the ability to do that, Id save well more than that on dealer costs, and in the end I would probably spend much more on Control4 in general AND I would be able to convince many more of my friends to take the plunge. As it is, when my friends ask me if they should get Control4 my current response is wait and see, but for now no. Why? In my experience (now 3-4 dealers) dealer responsiveness leaves a lot to be desired. If I need a change made often times I need it done within 24-48 hours and it seems that is too much to ask, even for remote programming.

I'm quite positive about C4's future and how they'll grow their business. I agree with akg4y that in addition to their dealer channel, there's room to further segment their target audience and go after a "tech savvy/HA curious" retail consumer through say, building a direct model? (The reality is, there is an underground direct channel today... why not make it legit, and make money at it). If you have a complex system, have no interest it setting it up yourself... you have a dealer network. If you have a simple system, want to be more involved there's... a direct channel. This benefits C4 as company as it would allow C4 to sell a lot more product, to a lot more people... good dealers thrive/differentiate themselves, bad dealers disappear. For example, I live in a high-tech town with friends who work for Microsoft, Amazon, Apple etc... They're impressed with my C4 system but scoff at the idea of being dependent on a dealer... especially if you have to chase after your dealer to get anything done. Again, I'm not attacking the many good dealers on this forum (no desire to be "blacklisted"), I just want C4 to grow their business which I think benefits us all.

I'm also interested to see what happens with all these C4 partnerships with manufacturers like Sony, Denon, NAD, Pioneer, LG etc... These brands don't just partner with anyone and I'm curious about what those negotiations will bring. For example, it's risky for the Sony brand to integrate the C4 OS (whatever that means) and then turn over that customer relationship to a C4 dealer. If something goes wrong, that consumer blames Sony. These negotiations have to consider these points?

@RyanE... you always to do a great job participating on the forum, balancing different perspectives from the "unofficial inside"... thanks again for that. I also believe you when you say C4 listens to customers. C4 management has interesting decisions to make as they plan for the company's future.

PS: I'm typing this from my C4 equipped hotel room at Aria, Las Vegas!

[ILoveC4]

I live in a high-tech town with friends who work for Microsoft, Amazon, Apple etc... They're impressed with my C4 system but scoff at the idea of being dependent on a dealer...

Your friends at APPLE scoff at the idea of a product being locked down and dependant upon another product (IE: any apple product and iTunes). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

At any rate, here is what I think would be cool, and seems to be realistic in my eyes. Using this new "4Store" let people download drivers for third party devices, and add the products themselves. For example if you buy a Netgear EVA9150, you could go onto the 4Store, download the driver for the product. The GUI would then ask you what room the EVA9150, and could show all the possible connections, and you tell the system what connections you made. I would think doing this would be fairly simple for devices such as TV's, DVD/BluRay Players, Media Player, etc...

It certainly wouldn't give everyone on here the control they are asking for, but it would go a long way in allowing the end user to complete simple tasks like swapping a device out by themselves.

I too hope that Control4 comes out with a way to become a "certified programmer" like Crestron does, and once you are a "certified programmer" you have access to the dealer tools. I would pay $500 - $1,000 per year to maintain that status. I would also pay a reasonable amount ($2,500?) to attend the C4 training to become a certified programmer. I would even pay for calls to tech support on a per call basis after acheiving that status if needed. I wish some of the execs at Control4 would chime in on this, but I see why they don't. They would be nit picked on everything they said, and bombarded with a million peoples opposing view on their statement.

I love the products, and I hope they keep it up. Control4 seems to be a well ran company, and I trust they will make good decisions going forward. I just hope they make them sooner rather than later.

EDIT: It seems like this would be even easier to do with Control4 products! You could pull up the GUI on your TV and tell the system you just bought a new SR-250. It could ask you what room the SR-250 will reside in, and tell you how to identify it. Once it identified, hit okay on the GUI, and there you go. I have to see them moving in this direction to a certain extent, it just makes too much sense (unless they're trying to protect these revenue's for the dealer base).

[zaphod]

Sorry folks I am coming to this debate late but here are what I think are a few relevant points:

- Control4 is going to have to change its business model somewhat in the near future since it is very, very likely that the iPad is going to change the way that C4 sells some types of hardware and software. I believe we have begun to learn a little bit about this with the change to 4sight, etc. Why would anyone buy a C4 touchpad given the option to buy an iPad with a C4 app?

- There have been some posts saying "don't upgrade to 2.0" or "I won't upgrade to 2.0". Is this really an option since won't all new hardware, like dimmers, require at least 1.8 to operate? Once the supply of old hardware is exhausted then you will have to upgrade, at least to 1.8, if you ever want to add new hardware.

- Not all dealers are really experts in all aspects of C4. I came to C4 from my electrician who is a C4 dealer. He put in some new wiring for my hot tub, swimming pool, etc and when I was doing some landscape lighting and interior renos he suggested C4. He is very good at electrical work but he is not a computer/networking guy and he and his staff are not that comfortable around PCs. I happen to be an electrical engineer and a severe computer geek (although I have not worked in engineering for about 17 years). I know far more about computer programming, networking, intefacing between PCs and home A/V systems, etc. than my dealer does and in many ways I am far more qualified than him when it comes to using a product like Composer Pro. But I am not allowed to do so. So when I need changes I have to call him and essentially walk him through the changes. Does that make sense? I have no interest in ever touching any electircal wiring or installing my own dimmers but I think I should be able to add new devices to my system such as a new TV or source.

- Currently Control4 has absolutely no security around the networking communications between the controller and clients like Composer HE - you can easily sniff out commands and write your own apps using port 5020 C4 SOAP XML commands. One could argue that C4 is giving implicit permission to do so since they don't even do basic authentication - it is similar to setting up a wireless router and then not turning on any security. It will be interesting to see if this changes in 2.0.

[wappinghigh]

+1 for all the recent posts.

It would be absolutely ludicrous for a company to ignore it's more intelligent (and experimental) user base. Sure, so what if they are only 3% (or even less) of that base? They are 97% of the end user R&D of the company.

They basically road test and field test the product for C4, FREE of CHARGE. And let me re-emphasise that. All the time, chat, information sharing, intelligence gathering my members on a forum like this is totally FREE to the company.

What's the alternative for the company? Purchase a 100 or so houses. Put in a full C4 platform into those houses? Pay someone with a tertiary education to live in those house 24/7 researching and field testing the product? Employ a huge marketing and customer survey company at Millions of dollars and hour (only to get the wrong feedback anyway)! Run weekly updating seminars to ALL the dealers out there exchanging feedback from customers? And all in hundreds of different markets around the world?

What is learned from this user base (FREE) can then be put into future releases of software and product and rolled out into the hotels, the nursing homes, the hospitals, the mass market, at HUGE profit margin to the company. 100% actually. Because let me say it again. This R&D is FREE to the company.

Locking out such a user base from the software development and feedback loop of the company would be just plain stupid. This is why they need MORE fexibility in Composer HE. Not less! If management is not reading this forum and particularly the concerns raised in this thread they are just plain daft IMHO. Every post should be personaly printed out by Cytexone and express posted for presentation at the next C4 board meeting :cool:

[urbanmark]

I live in a high-tech town with friends who work for Microsoft' date=' Amazon, [b']Apple etc... They're impressed with my C4 system but scoff at the idea of being dependent on a dealer...

Your friends at APPLE scoff at the idea of a product being locked down and dependant upon another product (IE: any apple product and iTunes). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Hey ILoveC4, it's really apparent throughout the forum that you don't like Apple. That's cool. But you don't need to twist every mention of the company into how much you dislike them. We know.

So, where do you figure the idea/concept of a C4 app store comes from? Rhetorical question....

Sent from my iPhone.

[ILoveC4]

I live in a high-tech town with friends who work for Microsoft' date=' Amazon, [b']Apple etc... They're impressed with my C4 system but scoff at the idea of being dependent on a dealer...

Your friends at APPLE scoff at the idea of a product being locked down and dependant upon another product (IE: any apple product and iTunes). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Hey ILoveC4, it's really apparent throughout the forum that you don't like Apple. That's cool. But you don't need to twist every mention of the company into how much you dislike them. We know.

So, where do you figure the idea/concept of a C4 app store comes from? Rhetorical question....

Sent from my iPhone.

LOL.

I actually really like a lot of aspects of Apple, there are just a few things about their products that I cannot stand. How restrictive they are with what you can do with the hardware you purchased is the main thing. The products that this applies to are essentially the iPhone, iPod, and soon to be iPad. I love Apple computers, the hardware is robust and sexy, and I really like the form factor of the mobile products.

It just made me chuckle that you mentioned a friend at Apple scoffing at the fact that you could'nt do whatever you want with a product, because that is case with most of the products Apple sells (iPhone and iPod).

Don't think I have a deep hatred for Apple...sorry if you took offense to my post. I don't try and twist every mention of the company into how I dislike them...sorry if you see it that way.

Sent from my open source Motorola Droid =)

EDIT: Fix typo...

[ILoveC4]

I should also add that I am aware of how the App Store revolutionized the industry. It is a great idea, and I am glad other companies are embracing it and coming out with similar products.

[wappinghigh]

The whole reason why Apple is so successful is it listens to it's customers. And average folk don't need a computer dealer to instal, upgrade or reload software on their computer or other electronic device. They buy product straight from a store in a nice box, take it home and never see a computer dealer in their house. Ever. If they have a problem, they often bypass the dealer and deal straight with the company. There is also a huge respected Apple user base out their in forums like this giving free feedback to the company 24/7. And large numbers of beta software and app testers all providing free service to the company .....mmmm not a bad model for C4 come to think of it......

[wappinghigh]

Oh. And somehow they manage to do it. And they would be 100x the size of Control4. And a computer operating system like OSX is way more complicated than Composer. And if you think a similar "dealer largely absent, for upgrades, tweeking, and problem solving" model can't work for a smaller company in the niche, network based home auto market, look at Sonos. :cool:

[CFUG]

Your friends at APPLE scoff at the idea of a product being locked down and dependant upon another product (IE: any apple product and iTunes). Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Hey ILoveC4' date=' it's really apparent throughout the forum that you don't like Apple. That's cool. But you don't need to twist every mention of the company into how much you dislike them. We know.

So, where do you figure the idea/concept of a C4 app store comes from? Rhetorical question....

[b']Sent from my iPhone.

LOL.

I actually really like a lot of aspects of Apple, there are just a few things about their products that I cannot stand. How restrictive they are with what you can do with the hardware you purchased is the main thing. The products that this applies to are essentially the iPhone, iPod, and soon to be iPad. I love Apple computers, the hardware is robust and sexy, and I really like the form factor of the mobile products.

It just made me chuckle that you mentioned a friend at Apple scoffing at the fact that you could'nt do whatever you want with a product, because that is case with most of the products Apple sells (iPhone and iPod).

Don't think I have a deep hatred for Apple...sorry if you took offense to my post. I don't try and twist every mention of the company into how I dislike them...sorry if you see it that way.

Sent from my open source Motorola Droid =)

EDIT: Fix typo...

In general, the hardware could be called robust. I guess I don't understand what you mean. For example, outside of the Ti laptop, every Apple laptop I've owned twists like a pretzel. In 2006 I bought one of the first Shanghai-built MacBooks. The assembly was not so good and the trackpad and left-click button died.

So, after 27 years of Macs, I've had it.