Help Choosing HDMI Matrix

[JB1]

I need some help deciding between the Atlona 6x6 HDBaseT Matrix Switch model AT-UHD-PRO66M or the Control4 Leaf model C4-LU862D.  The Leaf is at the top of my budget and I'm trying to decide if its worth the extra cost.  Here are some details on my setup and factors I'm considering:

• 7 Inputs (could live with 6 if I went with a 6x6) and 9 TVs. Both models have 8 outputs so I could live with putting a guest room on a Fios box and taking it off of the matrix.  Alternatively, I could move to the Atlona 8x8 which offers 10 outputs and is likely still less money than the Leaf 8x8.
• I have a mix of 4K and older 1080P TVs.  I understand the inherent limitation of this setup which is the source will output to the lowest common denominator if I'm sharing a source with multiple TVs and one of them is a 4K and the other 1080P.  I've thought about JAP but not many installers in the DC area work with it and it seems much more expensive.
• I will have multiple audio needs.  My rec room is a 5.1 setup but my patio, kitchen, and family room require 2 ch stereo, and a few other zones will just have audio coming out the TV.  Will the Leaf matrix shine here because it will downmix the HDMI signal in the matrix to 2 channel stereo that can be output to my audio matrix while also sending 5.1 to my rec room?  This is nice, but does it really matter?  Would this give me more control (for lip sync) and a better audio signal than running RCAs from a source to the audio matrix, or using digital coax and an external DAC to convert to analog and then run to the matrix?
• The Atlona supports 8bit color while the Leaf supports 10bit.  Most new TVs support 10bit, but there are not many sources that support it or much content filmed in 10bit.  So does this really matter?
• Reliability and quality is also a factor.  I've heard the Leaf units are rock solid and Atlona suffered with some quality issues a few years ago.  Is this still an issue I should be concerned about with Atlona?  Altona offers a 10yr warranty, but my preference is to not have to deal with any warranty issues to begin with.
• Are there other factors I didn't mention which would help push the decision to one unit or the other?  If downmixing is over rated should I really be considering the C4-LU862 unit to save some money?  
• Can someone please provide MSRP of the C4-LU862D and C4-LU862?  I can't find any consistent/reliable prices online for these units.

This forum has already proven to be an invaluable resource.  I appreciate any thoughts or insights you can provide.

[Cyknight]

Not sure why you're considering a 6x6 with 7 sources and 9 TVs. I'd be looking at the Leaf 1082D myself. But you'll have to judge cost vs function for yourself.

Based on your needs the Leaf/Control4 will shine - it'll give you the audio needs you want (ability to do surround AND stereo while extracting audio from sources that have no direct stereo out), not to mention the Leaf's ability to lock zones allowing sources to be displayed in 4K where available.

 

Both are solid units these days. We're one that had a lot if issues with Atlona early on, but we've tentatively tried a few Atlonas not that long ago - can't really complain. I run a 1082D myself and it's a great piece too with no issues to report at this time.

[lippavisual]

Both the Atlona and Leaf units will do what you want.

I have yet to try any Leaf units, so can't really give a technical opinion about them.

I've used the Atlona many of times and have had zero issues with them.

Installing an Atlona 6x6 next week actually.

[Matt Lowe]

i would also suggest looking at Just Add Power or Videostorm with the odd number of tvs and sources you have you can really grow and expand those system vs being stuck to a static matrix 

[JB1]

Matt - I looked at Just Add Power 3G units and, from what I could tell, it was almost double the cost of a Leaf or Atlona matrix switch when I compared it to an 8x8 setup.  Is that typical or am I looking at the required hardware incorrectly?

Glad to hear the Atlona and Leaf units are both pretty solid.

Cyknight - If all of my sources have an analog out, aside from Roku and ATV (which I can stick an external DAC in front of) would it still make sense to purchase the Leaf unit with downmixing?  Are there added benefits to pulling all the audio from the HDMI matrix (like adjustments for lip synch issues) vs running audio from each source to a 16x16 audio matrix?

[thecodeman]

34 minutes ago, JB1 said:

Matt - I looked at Just Add Power 3G units and, from what I could tell, it was almost double the cost of a Leaf or Atlona matrix switch when I compared it to an 8x8 setup.  Is that typical or am I looking at the required hardware incorrectly?

Glad to hear the Atlona and Leaf units are both pretty solid.

Cyknight - If all of my sources have an analog out, aside from Roku and ATV (which I can stick an external DAC in front of) would it still make sense to purchase the Leaf unit with downmixing?  Are there added benefits to pulling all the audio from the HDMI matrix (like adjustments for lip synch issues) vs running audio from each source to a 16x16 audio matrix?

It depends on the feature set you need for 3G. They have some newer units, the 3G POE TX and RX, that help make the cost more competitive to HDBaseT. However in our experience we have not had a lot of luck with HDBaseT (C4/Leaf, Binary) and various 4K sources / displays handshaking - like DirecTV c61K or Amazon FireTV - or with EMI on network cable runs in retrofit where we didnt have control over the existing cabling and path. J+P is more forgiving in this regard than HDBaseT. As a result we are starting to spec J+P on more jobs because once it's installed we rarely have any issues with it. So for us, and for the customer's experience, it's worth the premium if video distribution is needed or desired. Plus being modular if any one component goes out it doesnt sink the whole distribution system, just that one source or display.

Ultimately it will be choices from what your dealer offers or is willing to work with.

 

[Cyknight]

22 hours ago, thecodeman said:

It depends on the feature set you need for 3G. They have some newer units, the 3G POE TX and RX, that help make the cost more competitive to HDBaseT.

Well....it makes them less over the top compared to them.

Just to note - JAP is fantastic, and probably my first choice if money isn't the concern. No denying that it's quality comes at a price though.

22 hours ago, thecodeman said:

like DirecTV c61K or Amazon FireTV

DirectTV should be good now with the latest DirecTV firmware if memory serves, this was more on their end than the switch.

That's beside the point though, and doesn't negate that I can only agree that JAP should always be considered for the reasons you list.

Still can't quite get myself to jump on the VideoStorm bandwagon, though it looks great on paper (and have always had great experience with the brand).

23 hours ago, JB1 said:

Cyknight - If all of my sources have an analog out, aside from Roku and ATV (which I can stick an external DAC in front of) would it still make sense to purchase the Leaf unit with downmixing?  Are there added benefits to pulling all the audio from the HDMI matrix (like adjustments for lip synch issues) vs running audio from each source to a 16x16 audio matrix?

'Sense' is based on what you can/are willing to pay.

Not all source will output stereo on analogue while preserving surround (or only do PCM at that point), and yes the Leaf will also give you audio adjustment for sync.

Also keep in mind that more and more sources don't even have optical/coax anymore, so in that scenario you're putting on an HDMI audio extractor, which work but are usually a bit more expensive (especially if you'd want to preserve the encoding)

 

I should note that JAP has all that too on 3G (not all available models so be sure to check specs)

[Matt Lowe]

On 1/23/2017 at 6:56 PM, JB1 said:

Matt - I looked at Just Add Power 3G units and, from what I could tell, it was almost double the cost of a Leaf or Atlona matrix switch when I compared it to an 8x8 setup.  Is that typical or am I looking at the required hardware incorrectly?

the cost should be a break even for an 8x8. its gets really expensive when your needs grow and you need an 8x9 or 9x8. then you are spending  more money than what you did on the original just to throw the original out. the JAP system as a pretty good job on scaling for older equipment to so you wont necessarily  need to buy a whole new matrix for the new device of tomorrow.

[JB1]

On 1/23/2017 at 9:42 PM, thecodeman said:

It depends on the feature set you need for 3G. They have some newer units, the 3G POE TX and RX, that help make the cost more competitive to HDBaseT. However in our experience we have not had a lot of luck with HDBaseT (C4/Leaf, Binary) and various 4K sources / displays handshaking - like DirecTV c61K or Amazon FireTV - or with EMI on network cable runs in retrofit where we didnt have control over the existing cabling and path. J+P is more forgiving in this regard than HDBaseT. As a result we are starting to spec J+P on more jobs because once it's installed we rarely have any issues with it. So for us, and for the customer's experience, it's worth the premium if video distribution is needed or desired. Plus being modular if any one component goes out it doesnt sink the whole distribution system, just that one source or display.

Ultimately it will be choices from what your dealer offers or is willing to work with.

 

Thank you cyknight and thecodeman for the responses. It doesn't look like the new units offer downmixing so I may not benefit from them.

As mentioned above, I've talked to a few dealers in DC, all but 1 pushed against Just Add Power because they've had mixed results or no experience at all with it.  Those with mixed results could only mention projects they tried to take over and fix or a single instance where they've used it and have not gone back to it.  I would attribute their reluctance to suggest it to lack of experience with the product, and not a reflection of the product itself.

Does anyone have experience with any DC Area installers with Just Add Power that would be good to talk to?  I'd like to get a good price on a job with it from a dealer/installer with some experience.

[eggzlot]

3 hours ago, JB1 said:

Thank you cyknight and thecodeman for the responses. It doesn't look like the new units offer downmixing so I may not benefit from them.

As mentioned above, I've talked to a few dealers in DC, all but 1 pushed against Just Add Power because they've had mixed results or no experience at all with it.  Those with mixed results could only mention projects they tried to take over and fix or a single instance where they've used it and have not gone back to it.  I would attribute their reluctance to suggest it to lack of experience with the product, and not a reflection of the product itself.

Does anyone have experience with any DC Area installers with Just Add Power that would be good to talk to?  I'd like to get a good price on a job with it from a dealer/installer with some experience.

cant help with a JAP dealer reference, but I have had Video Storm Netplay (as referenced above) and for 2+ years it has been SOLID.  Their online marketing can be a bit confusing and not sexy, so if you have questions just ask.

I have had issues with numerous other C4 devices and non C4 devices, be it physical issues or design/lack of features.  netplay is perfect.  Set it and totally forget it.  On screen text notifications, video picture notifications, multi PIP with various sources, its own XBMC on each device....They are coming out with some 4k equipment this spring as well to make modular upgrades easy where needed.

I could give you a referral for an online dealer to help you with Netplay, both purchase and programming.  you would obviously need to run the wiring yourself or pay someone to do it locally as this dealer isnt local to the Mid Atlantic.

[thecodeman]

4 hours ago, JB1 said:

Thank you cyknight and thecodeman for the responses. It doesn't look like the new units offer downmixing so I may not benefit from them.

As mentioned above, I've talked to a few dealers in DC, all but 1 pushed against Just Add Power because they've had mixed results or no experience at all with it.  Those with mixed results could only mention projects they tried to take over and fix or a single instance where they've used it and have not gone back to it.  I would attribute their reluctance to suggest it to lack of experience with the product, and not a reflection of the product itself.

Does anyone have experience with any DC Area installers with Just Add Power that would be good to talk to?  I'd like to get a good price on a job with it from a dealer/installer with some experience.

That's true for the encoders, however you can do what I did on a job and mix/match the new POE receivers with the standard 3G transmitters for the audio out.

It's a shame that they aren't familiar with the product, as I'm sure if they spent some time with it and bought from @Kevin L they might reconsider.

[Control-IT]

All things considered I was looking at the 8x8 matrix and with HDbaseT receivers and everything the JAP is no more expensive.  It is actually slightly less since I only have to buy transmitters for the numbers of sources I have. 

For even money would you go with JAP vs. C4 Matrix? 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Control-IT said:

All things considered I was looking at the 8x8 matrix and with HDbaseT receivers and everything the JAP is no more expensive.  It is actually slightly less since I only have to buy transmitters for the numbers of sources I have. 

For even money would you go with JAP vs. C4 Matrix? 

I'd throw Video storm in for a comparison against JAP but...I'd go IP (VS or JAP) any day of the week over a fixed modular system.  Easier to upgrade piece by piece down the road.  If you are maxed out at 8x8 and add another TV or input device you are out of luck, you need an entire new unit.  Have an older unit and now want 4k, need an entire new system.  With an IP system (VS or JAP) you just get another decoder, or just get a 4k encoder/decoder for that particular source/display.  

 

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, Control-IT said:

For even money would you go with JAP vs. C4 Matrix? 

Depends on how much more money. There's extra value to a JAP setup in particular it's flexibility, it's only true downside is that all the components can take up more space, or can be a little more messy to deal with. JAP CAN be a little more 'complicated' (using the word loosely) than an HDBaseT to setup, epsecially if you use the 'official' driver from their site vs BlackWire's driver but....

The only other real generic advantage is that HDBaseT has been tagged by the HDMI group as more or less their 'official' option - but whether that really holds any ground...

The C4/LEAF 'D' series switch is in my experience more flexible in it's audio decoding, but that depends on your needs.

[videostorm]

We (Video Storm) have actually just launched a DIY version of our NetPlay IP system on Kickstarter.

Kickstarter project link

If you are interested in a really powerful system and are considering installing yourself, it can save you a lot of money.

The new NetPlayTV features/functionality are also available through professional dealers as NetPlay Pro (which is also much less expensive than JAP).

It is really a new concept in video distribution.  We are calling it BYOH (bring your own hardware).  The decoders can be any Android or AndroidTV device (such as Sony TVs or Amazon Fire).  We support both our own branded encoders as well as ultra low cost third party encoders.  The flexibility is really amazing.

[GT Slider]

One thing to consider is that as of 2013 Atlona offers a 10 year warranty on their equipment. Makes it pretty attractive when you consider cost.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JB1]

On 1/27/2017 at 8:26 AM, GT Slider said:

One thing to consider is that as of 2013 Atlona offers a 10 year warranty on their equipment. Makes it pretty attractive when you consider cost.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, the 10 year warranty on the pro3 series is definitely a nice feature.  I'm not sure what the failure rate is on either the Atlona or Leaf switches, but wouldn't expect a piece at this price range to fail consistently.  I've read on here and elsewhere that the Leaf switches are pretty reliable.

I'd like to go JAP, but to get an 8x8 or even 6x8 4K configuration, I feel like I'm looking at almost double in price.

 

EDITED for this question:  Does anyone know if there is more latency on the Atlona switch vs. the Leaf switch?  What about lag when changing resolutions?

[JB1]

On 1/26/2017 at 10:06 PM, videostorm said:

We (Video Storm) have actually just launched a DIY version of our NetPlay IP system on Kickstarter.

Kickstarter project link

If you are interested in a really powerful system and are considering installing yourself, it can save you a lot of money.

The new NetPlayTV features/functionality are also available through professional dealers as NetPlay Pro (which is also much less expensive than JAP).

It is really a new concept in video distribution.  We are calling it BYOH (bring your own hardware).  The decoders can be any Android or AndroidTV device (such as Sony TVs or Amazon Fire).  We support both our own branded encoders as well as ultra low cost third party encoders.  The flexibility is really amazing.

Thanks for sharing this.  It looks like a cool project...  Does is it work with 4K resolutions?

[videostorm]

2 hours ago, JB1 said:

Thanks for sharing this.  It looks like a cool project...  Does is it work with 4K resolutions?

Yes, 4K via multiple codecs (h.264, h.265, VP9).  Our decoder software (NetPlayTV) supports the latest Android hardware, so even when 8K comes out (then 12 etc) it will be supported.  You can mix resolutions as well without issues.  HDR is also supported.

IP cams, file sources, cloud stream, etc can be any resolution including 4K. 

For the hdmi encoders, the branded device we sell (VTX) is 1080p.  However, you can buy 3rd party 4K encoders (which we have tested, they work well).  

[lippavisual]

2 hours ago, videostorm said:

However, you can buy 3rd party 4K encoders (which we have tested, they work well).  

Do you have any examples of units that you tested??

[videostorm]

http://z3technology.com/zeus/Product/HE4K-R/22.html

http://z3technology.com/zeus/Product/HE4K-R4/41.html

There are also new ones from Asia that are in prototype right now.  They should be for sale in about a month.  They also support h.265 4K as well as h.264 4K.

The Asian encoders use the same platform as these  https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20170130140600&SearchText=h264+encoder   (just the next gen chipset)

[Control-IT]

Seems like they each have their strengths.  With JAP and VS you can't pass ethernet via the balun (decoder).  JAP doesn't pass IR which VS does.  All things considered I can do a 10x10 4K matrix for just slightly more so even though I don't have 10 sources and don't have 10 TV's yet.  Cost isn't that much different. 

 

[videostorm]

12 minutes ago, Control-IT said:

Seems like they each have their strengths.  With JAP and VS you can't pass ethernet via the balun (decoder).  JAP doesn't pass IR which VS does.  All things considered I can do a 10x10 4K matrix for just slightly more so even though I don't have 10 sources and don't have 10 TV's yet.  Cost isn't that much different. 

 

NetPlay (VS) does have ethernet at the decoder/balun (it is standard ethernet).  In fact, using the new NetPlay Home system there often is not a dedicated decoder/balun at all (it is your Sony TV or a FireTV).  

Plus our cost is a lot lower.  TV licenses are $90 each.  HDMI source encoders can be purchased (3rd party) for under $200 each. 

[poseidonsystems]

Has any one used the 8x8 switches from AV pro store? 

Here's the link:

http://www.avprostore.com/18GBPS-18-Gigabyte-per-second-8x8-Matrix-p/ac-mx88-auhd.htm

[GT Slider]

poseidonsystems for the cost, you're not that for off from the Control4 Leaf 8x8 Matrix.  A much better product to go with.  I don't know about the one in the link, but the Control4 Leaf Matrix handles a single HDCP handshake, which is great if your sourcing just a couple of cable boxes (Comcast reportedly supports no more than 2 handshake events before you get an error message).