thecodeman Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Sure. But what then happens to that second hand gear? There is no market for it Sure, you can try to sell it on eBay, craigslist, trade for a friend for beer, put it in the trash etc. How is the used/second had market going for a 2007 iPhone? I just checked on eBay. I can get one for $50. it will make calls and probably check my email, send texts. Use any current apps? No. 3G data? no. Greater than potato quality camera? No. Hmm. We aren't talking about the second hand market for a 1967 Shelby GT500 Eleanor here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 The dealer only model simply escalates the depreciation to zero the moment new product is announced. It makes old product basically worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 There is a local bike shop I went into one time to get a tire changed. They asked where I bought it and I told them I didn't know (I didn't) and they said they only service bikes they sell. I left. But they are still in business... To each their own Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 There is a local bike shop I went into one time to get a tire changed. They asked where I bought it and I told them I didn't know (I didn't) and they said they only service bikes they sell. I left. But they are still in business... To each their ownSent from my iPhone using TapatalkHugh? At least you have the option to sell this bike to the next guy because the next guy can ride it themselves.. What you have just said proves my point exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 Hugh?At least you have the option to sell this bike to the next guy because the next guy can ride it themselves..What you have just said proves my point exactly. Don't see how that proves your point, but ok Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakeItAMudLight Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 that is what i meant. their hourly rate is higher for gear not sourced from them.Again, this is America. THeir a lot of C4 dealers, if you dont like thier rates, nothing prevents you from finding another one.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Yet my dealer is an Aussie in Canada! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted February 24, 2015 Share Posted February 24, 2015 I just don't understand why if Wap hates c4 so much he spends so much time here Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 24, 2015 Author Share Posted February 24, 2015 ^ Ok. Yep I hate C4 soooo much!!! LOL. So much that I am currently installing it for a second time.. Yes. And I my thought processes are so illogical as well. Yep: Whatever I say makes zero common sense. And I'm drunk as I post this. Yep. I absolutely hate Control4 all right! LOL Wrong. I want to make things better for us all. Wait. The secondary market for Control4 goods is not a sham. No. It's just tickidy boo. It's so easy to do! You just pop your gear on ebay or give it back to your dealer and presto the next guy can just offer you a fair price and is happy because bingo: there it is: He can instal it all in his own time and with little expense by himself. .. Or wait: Here is the alternative. He just calls this 1800 no. and a lovely lady from Control4 gives him a list of thousands of dealers that will simply remote in for him, with smiles on their faces humming merrily to themselves: no questions asked and pop that gear into his home and project... So where is the problem? The current way of passing on second hand gear is just awesome for all !!!! . Yep. All is just dandy. Have a think about it. LOL. Yep. Your used Control4 product is a dead sinch to sell on ebay or back to your Control4 dealer. This is so easy to do! It just walks out the door.. There are thousands and thousands of used Control4 products on ebay because the second hand market is so well supported by Control4. Take a look. LOL. I'll leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Obsessions Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 I tried to digest this thread. But at the end of the day, I fail to see how legacy product support is a "control4 centric" issue? Are you updating this thread with an iPhone v1? Because mine lays dead in a pile of legacy electronics which also have no support or value. I think it's vastly unfair to put blame on one company, when it is obviously a society issue. If you really want to support your system just google the composer pro reference guide, which is freely available, read the 200 pages, and sign up as a third party developer to gain composer access, no one is stopping you, but yourself.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 ^ Yep. These excuses and so called "solutions" are rolled out time and again. But basically this is sweeping the issue under the carpet. The iphone analogy is a nonsense. I'll shoot that down easily by saying after a person buys an iphone (from an Apple dealer. Or in an Apple store)... it's over to them... they upgrade, add software and apps all by themselves, then on sell it: and the next guy does the same.. So that analogy just doesn;t stack up.. Fact is Control4 does NOT make this easy. For the end user. We still get these condescending reasons and so called solutions all the time. Get a remote dealer. Get pro illegal. Get a dealer version of pro. Get a dealer who is pro centric. Get a dealer who is happy to just program (at a different rate.) Swap dealers. All "code" for step around the problem this way... But what if I don't want to do this? What if all I want is the current dealer. And all I want is this awkward situation to just go away...? So we all can be happy? I aint bitter. Don't get me wrong. How could I be? Like I said: I'm re-installing Control4 again as we speak. I love the product. But this festering issue remains hidden in the closet. I stand up for end users. It remains difficult for end users. This is a fact: Like it or not. Take it or leave, it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 ^ Yep. These excuses and so called "solutions" are rolled out time and again. But basically this is sweeping the issue under the carpet.The iphone analogy is a nonsense.I'll shoot that down easily by saying after a person buys an iphone (from an Apple dealer. Or in an Apple store)... it's over to them... they upgrade, add software and apps all by themselves, then on sell it: and the next guy does the same.. So that analogy just doesn;t stack up..Fact is Control4 does NOT make this easy. For the end user.We still get these condescending reasons and so called solutions all the time. Get a remote dealer. Get pro illegal. Get a dealer version of pro. Get a dealer who is pro centric. Get a dealer who is happy to just program (at a different rate.) Swap dealers. All "code" for step around the problem this way...But what if I don't want to do this? What if all I want is the current dealer. And all I want is this awkward situation to just go away...?So we all can be happy? I aint bitter. Don't get me wrong. How could I be? Like I said: I'm re-installing Control4 again as we speak. I love the product.But this festering issue remains hidden in the closet.I stand up for end users.It remains difficult for end users.This is a fact: Like it or not.Take it or leave, it. I actually don't think one person here has recommended getting Pro illegally Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 ^ Ok. Sure. Whatever. Nobody is condoning pro illegal. Least of all me. Look. Take one tiny little thing out of an argument and put whatever spin you like on it. No denying the facts though. It remains awkward. Let's all live in fairy land and pretend the problem will just "go away"... Let's all just continue to put lipstick on a pig. It remains a pig Yep. I'm drunk. I know crap. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 What if I don't want to do this? What if all I want is the current dealer. And all I want is this awkward situation to just go away...? Go on. Counter this argument. Go try... The right course of action from Control4 will eventuate because at the end of the day, it's the right thing to do.. Am I dreaming? Probably. Anyway. I'm outta here.. Adios.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Obsessions Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Do you think he really left ;-)Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyfrezze Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 At the fear of reviving this thread now that it's finally starting to calm down, I have to say while I agree with you for the most part Wapp, I feel you've blinded yourself to the whole truth. Is it inconvenient to depend upon a dealer to get things done for you? Yes, I've often had to fight with dealers to get parts ordered or even just to get a quote on parts. It's annoying and a pain and I do hope it gets resolved, but that is on the dealer and not C4 at large. As for the second hand service, it 100% exist. I've bought light switches off ebay, a 16 ch matrix, and a few other odd's and ends when I could score them for a really good deal. My initial dealer who installed my basic setup when we built our house a few years ago refused to do remote service and would only roll a truck from Denver. To get that to happen though, I had to sign up for their GOLD tier service at around $1800 a year. Needless to say I said F~k that and took my business elsewhere, because I can! Much like MSGREENF's analogy above, be it a tire and bike or my home automation system I was given the choice to go to any support system I could find that would work with me. As for Control4, is everything perfect and exactly how we want it to be? Not right now. Is the company listening, or better yet, is Martin Plaehn the CEO listening to his cusitomer. 100% yes. I truly and honestly wish I could say more, but I can't nor will I. But I can tell you he listens to his customers, he listens to his employee's and that's good for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 The answer is simple: the controller should have an OS license attached to it. If a user (us .1% er's) wanted to program the controller they could do like Lutron; have some online training courses and at the end the could download Composer Pro. Composer Pro could then be accessed using a dealer license or by entering in the controller OS license. This isn't something that has to be advertised but is an option for someone who desperately want to program the system themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 The answer is simple: the controller should have an OS license attached to it. If a user (us .1% er's) wanted to program the controller they could do like Lutron; have some online training courses and at the end the could download Composer Pro. Composer Pro could then be accessed using a dealer license or by entering in the controller OS license.This isn't something that has to be advertised but is an option for someone who desperately want to program the system themselves.And with the current 800 and 250 licences (not pro) are attached. Compare to other threads poster with a dozen controllers and no licence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Let me preface by saying Control4 doesn't market their product for the DIY segment..... Here's a recycling idea though, release an older Composer for the DIY market. Say 2.2.Provides a use for the older processors and touchpanels (and a value) through the resale market without hindering the dealers.Allows DIY to get a taste if they want new features, they can step up to the dealer channel and newer processors. Create a website, be clear on which products and limitations. (no H250 or HC800, no Gen 2 lighting)Market as a green solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 Although I know better than to feed a troll, I do have to mention one thing: To say that it is a *sham* indicates some sort of deception. If wappinghigh can show me where Control4 has *ever* said that *any* Control4 equipment (new, used) may be programmed by end users, I'd agree. RyanE P.S. I'm not speaking officially (or unofficially) for Control4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Leeds UK Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 RAV, Good Post. RyanE - Wap not a Troll more lets say excitable, free thinking kid of poster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Although I know better than to feed a troll, I do have to mention one thing: To say that it is a *sham* indicates some sort of deception. If wappinghigh can show me where Control4 has *ever* said that *any* Control4 equipment (new, used) may be programmed by end users, I'd agree. RyanE P.S. I'm not speaking officially (or unofficially) for Control4.No it does not necessarily indicate some sort of deception. I am not implying there is deception on the part of Control4 (the corporation) I'm saying the secondary market is a sham The word sham can also mean "a thing that is not what it is purported to be" (as a Noun) It's often purported that the purchase of second hand gear is easy, and secondary installation of used gear is a simple task. It's not. ...just simply "get a new dealer to remote in". Or "get a dealer to lend you pro".. or whatever... is not easy to do.... In my opinion to have a robust and viable secondary market product needs to be able to be easily installed and used by an end user of that product. This is because the secondary market is well known not to be supported by the manufacturer or the original dealer who sold the product. Kind regards Wap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 When new product is purchased off a dealer, it is highly likely that the dealer would have sold product to the consumer implying to the customer that he/she : the dealer was the only one who could install the product. This is not necessarily the case with the second hand market, because product can be purchased from a supplier who is not an authorised Control4 dealer. Product appears on ebay and even here on this forum without any disclaimer that the product needs authorised installation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted February 25, 2015 Share Posted February 25, 2015 When new product is purchased off a dealer, it it highly likely that the dealer would have sold product to the consumer implying to the customer that he/she : the dealer was the only one who could install the product.This is not necessarily the case with the second hand market, because product can be purchased without an authorised Control4 dealer. Product appears on ebay and even here on this forum without any disclaimer that the product needs authorised installation.And that is control4 problem how? Control4 can't control how non authorized people portray their product on 3rd party markets Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 ^ No legally speaking it is not directly Control4's problem. And yes. You are correct. Control4 can't control how non authorized people portray their product on 3rd party markets But it's all about perception my friend. And awareness of how the brand is perceived in the marketplace. And that is Control4's problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted February 25, 2015 Author Share Posted February 25, 2015 Or put it another way. Could it actually be, that the perception that the product can't be easily and freely onsold in the secondary market actually prevent new sales and a greater spend...? In other words (as a fan of the product and new purchaser) I might actually hold back new purchase and a larger spend because I perceive I will have trouble on-selling my gear at a later date... ...for whatever reason. Dealer not happy with the situation of taking back and onselling second hand gear. No robust ebay market. Whatever. See? Right or wrong, a perception could hypothetically be affecting new sales... This then does become Control4's problem... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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