Adidaswood Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Hey All, Looking for a little advice... We finished our basement about a year ago, and when it was finished, I just slammed everything back in the AV rack in its new location. No attention was paid to cable management. I've finally grown tired of the mess, tangles and disarray. Its a debacle. Last weekend I went in there and did some minor cleanup and bundled a few cable trunks and learned a few things. The primary thing being some of my home runs are too short. I think I can get all of them to the top of the rack, but certainly not to the bottom and into its gear. I think I can solve this two ways. Patch panels and/or moving my HD Matrix high up in the rack. and now to the advice. Can i put HDBaseT through a patch panel? I'm guessing you all will say I shouldn't but...if I can't make shit reach what do I do? Speakers, What do you guys use for Speaker interconnect wire in the Rack, Planet waves, but seems like this would require use of their bananas? Regular 14ga 2 or 4 wire? Whats easy to work with in the rack? What do you guys recommend and why? For network do you guys like modular Keystones and Blank Panels? or Punchdown Panels? Which ones do you like best and why? Need to get rid of several POE adapters/injectors, 4 to 6 for now. What do you all like for POE. POE switch from Araknis is where I'm leaning, but i've see a lot of people recommending Midspans, but to be fair that was a while back. I am planning to use Planet Waves for my RCA and F type interconnects. I had used regular RG6 and compression fittings before the basement was finished and those were to thick and not very flexible when all done. Also things are moving around in the rack so they need a redo... Thanks for the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Keystone panels are more forgiving. Try the patch panel. The alternative isn't all that different. What you use for your speakers should probably be similar gauge. Use a POE switch from the same platform as your other network equipment. Switches, routers and security appliances can work together if they know each other. If you don't need a lot and just want a midspan injector there are many choices. Even ones where you can cycle power on ports using an API if needed. Only some people need or want that level of control. If you are doing it all yourself you are probably comfortable cycling a poe port by pulling a cable or patch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdougray Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 3 hours ago, Adidaswood said: Hey All, Looking for a little advice... We finished our basement about a year ago, and when it was finished, I just slammed everything back in the AV rack in its new location. No attention was paid to cable management. I've finally grown tired of the mess, tangles and disarray. Its a debacle. Last weekend I went in there and did some minor cleanup and bundled a few cable trunks and learned a few things. The primary thing being some of my home runs are too short. I think I can get all of them to the top of the rack, but certainly not to the bottom and into its gear. I think I can solve this two ways. Patch panels and/or moving my HD Matrix high up in the rack. and now to the advice. 1/ Can i put HDBaseT through a patch panel? I'm guessing you all will say I shouldn't but...if I can't make shit reach what do I do? Thanks for the help. It is perfectly acceptable to run HDBaseT through a patch panel. I run my HDbaseT through a patch panel and have no problems whats so ever in fact a lot of installers do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adidaswood Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 minute ago, tdougray said: It is perfectly acceptable to run HDBaseT through a patch panel. I run my HDbaseT through a patch panel and have no problems whats so ever in fact a lot of installers do this. any special tips here, like a shielded panel or cables? 110 panel, or passthrough keystones?...What works best here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdougray Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 If the patch panels are terminated correctly and well, there is minimal loss of distance with HDBaseT. I am using a standard 110 panel along with good quality patch cables between this and my matrix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adidaswood Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Pounce said: Keystone panels are more forgiving. Try the patch panel. The alternative isn't all that different. What you use for your speakers should probably be similar gauge. Use a POE switch from the same platform as your other network equipment. Switches, routers and security appliances can work together if they know each other. If you don't need a lot and just want a midspan injector there are many choices. Even ones where you can cycle power on ports using an API if needed. Only some people need or want that level of control. If you are doing it all yourself you are probably comfortable cycling a poe port by pulling a cable or patch. so for speaker cable in the rack, if I match the gauge that would likely rule out planet waves. so would you use 4 wire plenum cable like most home runs are made of or would you use lamp cord. What do you guys use to make it look nice. Does anyone use Planetwave for speaker interconnects? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Got a photo of your rack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adidaswood Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 i can get one but not handy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casperspooks Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 It is perfectly acceptable to run HDBaseT through a patch panel. I run my HDbaseT through a patch panel and have no problems whats so ever in fact a lot of installers do this.Patch panels, keystones, and even the "EZ" type CAT 5/6 plugs are adamantly discouraged by most installers and manufacturers for baluns/extenders. As with many things, YMMV. Just not worth the possible headaches. Sent using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, casperspooks said: Patch panels, keystones, and even the "EZ" type CAT 5/6 plugs are adamantly discouraged by most installers and manufacturers for baluns/extenders. As with many things, YMMV. Just not worth the possible headaches. So, what's your suggestion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adidaswood Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Right, what would be your suggestion... I've worked in IT for almost 20 years and I understand there is a difference between best practice and a standard. That said, I think I read that the HDBaseT standard does support a patch, and even further I don't remember if it is only 1 or 2. and even further still, does my binary hd matrix implement the standard correctly. I do understand what you are getting at, that said some of my cables might be too short. I do intend to move the hd matrix up as high as I can to try and mitigate the issue, but if I have to do a patch panel I want to do it right. also I do intend to do the speaker cables and network portions first to get a real good idea how far those cables really will reach. I think most will but there are a couple that are questionable. Pounce, I'll take some pictures later and get them posted, was there something particular you were interested in seeing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crshepard7 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 3 hours ago, casperspooks said: Patch panels, keystones, and even the "EZ" type CAT 5/6 plugs are adamantly discouraged by most installers and manufacturers for baluns/extenders. As with many things, YMMV. Just not worth the possible headaches. Sent using Tapatalk EZ style connectors should definitely be avoided. Patch panels & keystones should be avoided—with non-HDBT extenders. However, use of patch panels & keystones is perfectly acceptable when dealing with HDBT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 6 minutes ago, crshepard7 said: EZ style connectors should definitely be avoided. Patch panels & keystones should be avoided—with non-HDBT extenders. However, use of patch panels & keystones is perfectly acceptable when dealing with HDBT. Note that every HDBaseT manufacturer and the HDBaseT alliance recommends NOT to use patch panels - though they don't usually recommend against it specifically ANY use of a patch panel creates the chance that there's a weaker ('longer') signal. That said, the general chance of it is low. But it is a risk that has a high impact value (as you can't just magically make a cable longer without some sort of 'splice'). IF you choose to do patch panels, plan to keep any whip long enough to reach the rack directly. And yeah, just don't use EZ ends. Really not worth it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crshepard7 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 18 minutes ago, Cyknight said: Note that every HDBaseT manufacturer and the HDBaseT alliance recommends NOT to use patch panels - though they don't usually recommend against it specifically ANY use of a patch panel creates the chance that there's a weaker ('longer') signal. That said, the general chance of it is low. But it is a risk that has a high impact value (as you can't just magically make a cable longer without some sort of 'splice'). IF you choose to do patch panels, plan to keep any whip long enough to reach the rack directly. And yeah, just don't use EZ ends. Really not worth it anyway. Well said. Basically, don’t do it unless you need to; but if you need to, don’t be scared to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 11 hours ago, Adidaswood said: 1 Can i put HDBaseT through a patch panel? I'm guessing you all will say I shouldn't but...if I can't make shit reach what do I do? 2 Speakers, What do you guys use for Speaker interconnect wire in the Rack, Planet waves, but seems like this would require use of their bananas? Regular 14ga 2 or 4 wire? Whats easy to work with in the rack? What do you guys recommend and why? 3 For network do you guys like modular Keystones and Blank Panels? or Punchdown Panels? Which ones do you like best and why? 4 Need to get rid of several POE adapters/injectors, 4 to 6 for now. What do you all like for POE. POE switch from Araknis is where I'm leaning, but i've see a lot of people recommending Midspans, but to be fair that was a while back. 5 I am planning to use Planet Waves for my RCA and F type interconnects. I had used regular RG6 and compression fittings before the basement was finished and those were to thick and not very flexible when all done. Also things are moving around in the rack so they need a redo... 1 Not recommended, chances are it's fine, plus if you have to extend anyway....my suggestion is to use a keystone faceplate instead of pre-made punchdown panel. 2 Speaker wire, unless you have somethings 'special' running through the house is a dime a dozen for the most part. Something nice and flexible is obviously easier to use inside racks - but find something that fits your budget here. The keyston patch panel comes into play here again if you need to extend. There's tons of options there, but there's a few nice ones that take both + and - in a signle keystone that are easy connections . There's push-in and screw down version - I prefer screw down for secure connections, but those tend to be costly (around $10 each) 3 Again, keystone (modular) because it's easy to manage changes - ie if that network cable becomes a video connection, phone or something else, or needs to move locations 4 I still prefer midspans, or even passive multi-injectors, just to not have one signle (expensive) failure point - but with large PopE switches getting cheaper it's becoming a pricey method. There's really no right or wrong in this scenario 5 LOVE the product, and the only thing we use (and I use in my personal system) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casperspooks Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 C4 HDMI & HDBaseT Cabling Guide: https://www.control4.com/docs/product/av-cables/cabling-guide/english/latest/av-cables-cabling-guide-rev-c.pdf I prefer terminating those runs with standard CAT6 plugs to minimize issues. This coming from someone that hates the tediousness of those terminations; a necessary evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdougray Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 12 hours ago, casperspooks said: Patch panels, keystones, and even the "EZ" type CAT 5/6 plugs are adamantly discouraged by most installers and manufacturers for baluns/extenders. As with many things, YMMV. Just not worth the possible headaches. Sent using Tapatalk I agree that manufactures do not actively endorse it and why would they, any pinch point could effect signal lose but to say adamantly discourage is complete fabrication. https://installers.hdbaset.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Dos-and-Donts-WP.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casperspooks Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 I agree that manufactures do not actively endorse it and why would they, any pinch point could effect signal lose but to say adamantly discourage is complete fabrication.https://installers.hdbaset.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Dos-and-Donts-WP.pdf Because YOU haven't heard, seen, or read it doesn't make it a fabrication. Even more valuable than any papers, are the real world experiences exchanged between fellow dealers and manufacturers at trainings, expos, dealer forums, etc: terminate with a standard CAT6 plug and minimize your headaches. A business has better things to do than take unnecessary spins-at-the-wheel. DIY'ers can afford the luxury.Agreed to disagree.Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 2 hours ago, tdougray said: I agree that manufactures do not actively endorse it and why would they, any pinch point could effect signal lose but to say adamantly discourage is complete fabrication. https://installers.hdbaset.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Dos-and-Donts-WP.pdf I would adamantly discourage it based simply off the fact that if you have issues and call into tech support many manufacturers wouldn't even help you if you're using patch panels. I completely understand that there are times where you end up having to do it, but that doesn't mean i wouldn't adamantly discourage it. And that's not fabrication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adidaswood Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Photos as promised. I have shame...BUT this will make for some good before and after photos later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adidaswood Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adidaswood Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 So the goal is to get the cables up off the floor and run across the back of the stairs landing, then up into the rack and down to the gear. The grey cables are what I'm worried about. 3 of them are functioning as HDBaseT. I've ordered some vertical lacer strips and some other cable management accessories to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 9 minutes ago, Adidaswood said: So the goal is to get the cables up off the floor and run across the back of the stairs landing, then up into the rack and down to the gear. The grey cables are what I'm worried about. 3 of them are functioning as HDBaseT. I've ordered some vertical lacer strips and some other cable management accessories to help. we should have an ugly rack contest I think I'd win!! this isnt nearly as bad as some out there (like mine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounce Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 To be honest for 3 cables you can try adding a keystone and another patch cable without a panel. If you have problems then you can try something else. I don't think we have to overthink it. I guess you tried tugging on the cables to see if someone left slack in the wall or ceiling? I leave a loop or two when I can. You can get a punch down splice also. I think they are about 6-10 bucks. We all assume you can't run a new cable and you are DIY and not doing this at a customer... so big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallom Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 we should have an ugly rack contest I think I'd win!! this isnt nearly as bad as some out there (like mine).Thats a great idea!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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