Do I even need my C4 remotes (thinking out loud)?

[pinkoos]

My tvOS 13 and Control4 remote issues got me thinking and reassessing whether I even really need the C4 remotes and if I'd be better served with something like a Harmony remote

My setup:  no distributed video - we have 4 TVs and 4 Apple TVs, I'll describe the setup of each room below

STUDY (also where our main rack is):  Video - Apple TV (main source we use...YouTube TV, iTunes, apps, etc.), bluray (hasn't been used in months), TiVo (not connected to service, still around b/c I have a bunch of stored shows that I occasionally watch). Audio - receiver with overhead speakers.  We don't have direct line of sight with the Apple TV from where we watch (it's in the rack)

MASTER:  Video - Apple TV. Audio - Sonos Beam. We don't have direct line of sight with the Apple TV from where we watch (it's mounted behind the TV)

FAMILY ROOM:  Video - Apple TV. Audio - Sonos Beam. We don't have direct line of sight with the Apple TV from where we watch (it's behind a cabinet)

GAME ROOM:  Video - Apple TV, Xbox One (for kids - games only). Audio - Polk Soundbar (not connected to C4 - my dealer could never get the remote programmed to work, so we have to use a separate Polk remote for the audio). We DO have direct line of sight with the Apple TV (it's under the TV)

So, as you can see, the only real video source that we use on a daily basis for each TV is the Apple TV and they're all local

I started wondering if maybe I can just use Harmony remotes in each room now to control the Apple TV and TV?

For the rooms where there's no line of sight, I would need to get the Harmony Companion (it has a hub that has wifi/BT/IR built in)

For the one room with line of sight (game room), I could just use a the cheap Harmony as all I need is IR

In terms of audio, no one really uses Control4 for music except for me and even I just use it sparingly

We have a Sonos Connect in the rack that can send audio to all the overhead speakers throughout the house but, again, nobody uses it

Generally, I play music through my iPhone to our HomePods or AirPlay 2 it to our Sonos Beams and/or use the Sonos app to play through the Beams or Connect

And, there's always the Control4 app to use for audio if I want (though I never do)

I'm thinking I could just put the SR250s away (we have 3 of them and one SR260) and replace with the Harmonies as mentioned above

One thing I'm not sure about is how would Control4 see the state of the the video device if it's not turned on via Control4?  If I just use the Harmony, will the Control4 app show the TV as being on or not?

Should I just get my dealer to remove any and all programming from my project related to video if I do, in fact, decide to go the Harmony route?

Is there anything I'm missing here?

And, before anybody asks, I used to have distributed video, but got rid of it with the "upgrade" I performed last October (and posted about extensively here) b/c getting an HDMI matrix was going to be too costly

Thanks in advance for any thoughts/suggestions

[mstafford388]

If you were starting from scratch maybe (probably not) but I couldn't imagine putting out that kind of investment to be going backward into a system like harmony at this point.  

 

[OceanDad]

Somehow I think you might be asking that question in the wrong forum  

[pinkoos]

11 minutes ago, OceanDad said:

Somehow I think you might be asking that question in the wrong forum  

I know you're joking around but I just wanted to say that this is exactly the right forum to ask this question

Have gotten tremendous help and advice throughout the years from users and dealers/installers alike

Wouldn't think to ask this anywhere else!

[snipboy]

I haven't used my remotes in years. Just sitting in the closet. I should sell them. 

[pinkoos]

Just now, snipboy said:

I haven't used my remotes in years. Just sitting in the closet. I should sell them. 

What do you use in lieu of the remotes?

[msgreenf]

why are you even using Control4 then?

[pinkoos]

2 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

why are you even using Control4 then?

That question came up at the time of my "upgrade" last October and was part of the reason to go from distributed video to local video

The main reason was that I had already invested so much in it, it seemed a shame to dismantle the whole thing

At the same time, it was too expensive to go from my component matrix to an hdmi matrix - going local was way way way cheaper and fit our needs better

That being said and despite what I said about audio/music, the distributed audio does still come in handy from time to time

The cameras come in handy as well (though now with the SecuritySpy Mac NVR I'm using and great Apple TV app they have, I don't really access the cameras via the Control4 interface)

My wife still likes to see our driveway/garage door feed through the touchscreen at a quick glance

Your point is well taken and is also part of the reason I'm not willing to invest much more money in the system (ie, new EA controller, etc.) - I just don't see myself building out the system in the near (or remote) future to meet our needs - I'm meeting our automation needs in different ways now

I know I come across as "cheap" to some here in the forum, but these upgrades cost a ton of money and I just don't see it as a good use of my resources for to keep on pouring money into a system that I don't see our family as really using to full potential now or anytime soon

To give you an example, here is the quote from my dealer that I just got a few hours ago in terms of if I want to upgrade to an EA controller:

EA Controller and Touch Screen Pricing is as below.
EA1V2 - Retail $550
EA3V2 - Retail $1125
EA5V2 - Retail $2400
T3WALL7 (Black / White) - $950
T3WALL10 (Black / White) - $1300
RCP57B Back Boxes - $20 each (we need to replace these for new screens)

Additonally, he's recommending an EA5 and at least one EA1 to fit our needs.  Moreover, our current TSs would not be compatible, so we would need two new TS (I did mention that my wife still uses them above)

So minimum $5500 and for what, exactly?  And that doesn't even include labor and programming, so add another maybe $500 to that

$6000 to get my remotes working again (LOL!) and, of course, allow for future upgrades which, as I mentioned above, I don't really see myself taking advantage of

[South Africa C4 user]

And you will get a much cooler interface with that spend 

[South Africa C4 user]

More seriously though, some of the things I like about the C4 remote’s include:

1. No need to point them at the TV... they just work.

2. You can program the custom buttons (or colour buttons as your SR250s don’t have custom buttons) to do other things (e.g. turn lights off) - I don’t think you have lighting or anything else, so not that useful for you although you could program them to do something with your distributed music (or cameras) and you just might use them occasionally...?

3. They just work... clearly. It in your case with older hardware and the newer Apple TV OS.

Personally, I would stay with C4 if I was you and either roll the AppleTV OS back a version or pay the big bucks and then use C4 for a lot more in future... but as someone has already stated, you are asking the question on a relatively biased forum.

[msgreenf]

I would love to hear how your experience goes with Harmony, I think you will find itts no where near as complete and based on all the questions youi ask on here you will be finding a new forum for Harmony as you won't have a harmony dealer to help...

[eggzlot]

15 hours ago, pinkoos said:

That question came up at the time of my "upgrade" last October and was part of the reason to go from distributed video to local video

The main reason was that I had already invested so much in it, it seemed a shame to dismantle the whole thing

At the same time, it was too expensive to go from my component matrix to an hdmi matrix - going local was way way way cheaper and fit our needs better

That being said and despite what I said about audio/music, the distributed audio does still come in handy from time to time

The cameras come in handy as well (though now with the SecuritySpy Mac NVR I'm using and great Apple TV app they have, I don't really access the cameras via the Control4 interface)

My wife still likes to see our driveway/garage door feed through the touchscreen at a quick glance

Your point is well taken and is also part of the reason I'm not willing to invest much more money in the system (ie, new EA controller, etc.) - I just don't see myself building out the system in the near (or remote) future to meet our needs - I'm meeting our automation needs in different ways now

I know I come across as "cheap" to some here in the forum, but these upgrades cost a ton of money and I just don't see it as a good use of my resources for to keep on pouring money into a system that I don't see our family as really using to full potential now or anytime soon

To give you an example, here is the quote from my dealer that I just got a few hours ago in terms of if I want to upgrade to an EA controller:

EA Controller and Touch Screen Pricing is as below.
EA1V2 - Retail $550
EA3V2 - Retail $1125
EA5V2 - Retail $2400
T3WALL7 (Black / White) - $950
T3WALL10 (Black / White) - $1300
RCP57B Back Boxes - $20 each (we need to replace these for new screens)

Additonally, he's recommending an EA5 and at least one EA1 to fit our needs.  Moreover, our current TSs would not be compatible, so we would need two new TS (I did mention that my wife still uses them above)

So minimum $5500 and for what, exactly?  And that doesn't even include labor and programming, so add another maybe $500 to that

$6000 to get my remotes working again (LOL!) and, of course, allow for future upgrades which, as I mentioned above, I don't really see myself taking advantage of

It’s expensive anyway you shake it.  I’m in the same boat.  Difference is I have a ton hooked up to c4.  But I won’t spend 5500-8000 on new hardware to get past 2.10.6.  The pretty interface isn’t worth it at this point I agree.  

Ill go against the popular consensus here but cost wise you may be better off with harmony if all you do is look at 2 cameras on your TS.  If that is all it boils down to set up a tablet with NVR software for your wife

harmony wont be perfect either and as mentioned support would be hit or miss.  But it’s a fraction of the price.  I'm well too invested in c4 to consider such a move at this point 

[pinkoos]

Harmony may even be overkill for what I need, as it seems all I need is TV on/off and Apple TV control (in most rooms except the Study)

Maybe it's worth it to just pick up several Inteset remotes for $25 each as recommended here:

https://www.imore.com/best-remotes-apple-tv

My biggest problem right now is how to get the Apple TVs that are not in the line of sight into the line of sight or how to get some IR bud/extender from the Apple TV into the line of sight (not for Control4 purposes but to allow IR control of the Apple TV by one of these 3rd party remotes)

[Neo1738]

Could always pick up 1 harmony remote and see how it goes. Sounds to me like you are slowly divesting yourself of C4 and if it wasn't for mutli-zone audio and TS to see the driveway you would have been done with it already. I agree from reading all of your posts on here you probably are just done with C4 and would be better off with a less professional more consumer solution. Do I think it will work better than a properly configured C4 system, no, but I think from all of your posts it's what's best for you.

[pinkoos]

52 minutes ago, Neo1738 said:

Could always pick up 1 harmony remote and see how it goes. Sounds to me like you are slowly divesting yourself of C4 and if it wasn't for mutli-zone audio and TS to see the driveway you would have been done with it already. I agree from reading all of your posts on here you probably are just done with C4 and would be better off with a less professional more consumer solution. Do I think it will work better than a properly configured C4 system, no, but I think from all of your posts it's what's best for you.

Yes, I think this is exactly it.  I think my wife and I have made the decision to not really pour any more money into the Control4 ecosystem while, at the same, keeping up with the necessary "maintenance" to keep our pre-existing setup functioning and running smoothly (or as smoothly as possible).

The upgrade I did last October was a major upgrade (in terms of cost), but didn't include any new Control4 hardware at all.  We completely redid our network (wired and wireless), got a couple of Wattboxes for remote management, a new backup UPS, new cameras, etc.  These are all items that essentially have nothing directly to do with Control4.

So, now, I need to decide whether the cost of having my dealer come out to take care of IR access to the Apple TVs in order to get our remotes working again via the IR driver would fall under "maintenance" to keep our setup running or if I should just go the 3rd party remote route and let the Control4 remotes/Apple TV issue be part of divesting ourselves from the ecosystem.

[ekohn00]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

It’s expensive anyway you shake it.  I’m in the same boat.  Difference is I have a ton hooked up to c4.  But I won’t spend 5500-8000 on new hardware to get past 2.10.6.  The pretty interface isn’t worth it at this point I agree.  

Ill go against the popular consensus here but cost wise you may be better off with harmony if all you do is look at 2 cameras on your TS.  If that is all it boils down to set up a tablet with NVR software for your wife

harmony wont be perfect either and as mentioned support would be hit or miss.  But it’s a fraction of the price.  I'm well too invested in c4 to consider such a move at this point 

So your dilemma seems to be you basically have 4 rooms of TV and you're looking at a lot of equipment so costs are high.

We have a couple of rooms where the TV is IP enabled.  We also use Apple TV too. I no longer use any controller in those rooms, since there are no physical connection (we've never used the onscreen menu either).    So in your case....maybe look at what you really need to control everything. I assume the above isn't the list for the entire project, but a price list???  If it's the list to upgrade, get a better dealer who wants to understand and help.

PS....I basically have 1xEA3 and 2xEA1 to control 30 lights, alarm, whole home audio,  and 5 TV's (one is a home theater). one of the EA1s is used to extend the zigbee to my pool house, could have used a CA1, but spent a bit more for possible future needs......    My original system was an 1000/800 3xHC300, 2xHC250s....so I've upgraded and scaled back a bit after thinking about things more carefully and moving to IP based devices (TVs).  This is a 10+ yo system....

 

 

 

[pinkoos]

Yes, the EA list is a price list

My system was built in 2010

[snipboy]

On 9/27/2019 at 3:09 PM, pinkoos said:

What do you use in lieu of the remotes?

Our phones and tablets. All iOS products. Secondarily, we use voice commands through Amazon Echos throughout the house. My wife really didn't start using any of the automation I did with C4 until about a year ago. My project started in 2012. Like you, we don't have multi-zone audio or IP distribution in the house. We never did. Those seemed like a good idea on paper when my installer suggested them many years ago, but I've never missed out on it. We have seen the benefit and fun of having multi-room audio through our 9 Echos in the house. That solution was significantly cheaper than what I would have paid in 2012 or 2013 when I was seriously considering it. 

Given how much integration I've done with other HA products like Wemo and my security system, not to mention the additional controls I get with the Amazon platform, my investment in C4 has drastically dropped over the years. That said, there are some things C4 still does much better than anyone else -- and some solutions that were in play back 10 years ago -- are still better than any current providers. The question for me is, what level of control do I want to have over my system. I decided I wanted a basic rock solid lighting and security based system -- not an entertainment focused system. It might be a Frankenstein system to some, but it works very well for my family's needs. 

I've recently been offered an small C4 system for a ridiculously low price and I am tempted to take it. A lot of Sr-250s in that. I am considering reintegrating them into my project given all the issues with the Apple TV lately, but even then, my kids will likely still default to their phones and voice to control everything. 

[pinkoos]

Interesting, thank you for the reply