OceanDad Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 What are people using to do IP over coax when you just can’t run CAT cable to replace old coax ? I don’t need POE as I can use the 12v power line that’s there in the Siamese. Trying to upgrade some old TVI cameras, and the coax runs are pretty long. Hoping for recommendations for some good passive IP over coax baluns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 I use moca adapters if it’s RG6. Go Coax from Amazon is what I’ve been using. Or you can look at Veracity, which is a little more spendy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy.trochez Posted March 5, 2021 Share Posted March 5, 2021 https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1578622-REG/everfocus_palunii_palun_ii_ip_poe.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 I have used some old Motorola MOCA adapters for about 14 years. I have three of them, one to act as a source into my LAN and the other two are the "bridges" - one in my master bedroom and another in a part of my basement. They have worked very well, although I think they only support up to 50 mbps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindedc1 Posted March 6, 2021 Share Posted March 6, 2021 You can't do a "balun", that's a impedance matching transformer, you need something the electrically converts the signal... in this case MOCA is what you need.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanDad Posted March 6, 2021 Author Share Posted March 6, 2021 3 hours ago, mindedc1 said: You can't do a "balun", that's a impedance matching transformer, you need something the electrically converts the signal... in this case MOCA is what you need.. I've used the Channel Vision B-204 with success before, which is most definitely a balun. This is for IP cameras, nothing else. Looking for other recommendations as to what others use. MOCA is a) overkill and b) too bulky to fit at the camera end. No POE required, so although the Palun II will almost certainly do the job, it's quite expensive for POE functionality that's not required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindedc1 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 Ok, learn something new all the time... I wasn't aware of these... I honestly don't understand how it works with Tx and rx on the same wire without shifting the frequencies... unless it just lets them collide and that's why they seem to be 10/100... perhaps that's what they're doing... if that's the case it would be suitable for 1 camera but I wouldn't run anything more than that. If they are more Sophisticated in some way someone let me know, but if it's a passive impedance match and just sums rx/tx and lets csma/cd handle the overlap I would stay away unless for the camera application... Thank you for the education but unless I run into the camera situation I think moca is the more robust solution... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj4 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 On 3/5/2021 at 5:04 PM, eddy.trochez said: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1578622-REG/everfocus_palunii_palun_ii_ip_poe.html Any first hand experience with these? I'd look to use these in a couple spots in the house that already have coax but I could still use PoE without the bulky MoCA adaptor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy.trochez Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 13 minutes ago, tmj4 said: Any first hand experience with these? I'd look to use these in a couple spots in the house that already have coax but I could still use PoE without the bulky MoCA adaptor. That's all I use for all retrofits. Never had a problem. POE is a big plus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj4 Posted March 7, 2021 Share Posted March 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, eddy.trochez said: That's all I use for all retrofits. Never had a problem. POE is a big plus. Great to hear. Any idea if this can power something small like a small Unifi switch (USW Flex Mini) or even just to replace a MoCA adaptor without the bulk and extra power supply? is it able to deliver gigabit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindedc1 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 If you look, those things all are 10/100 because gigabit requires two paths for transmit and two for receive. There is also no shared media construct for 1Gig. I don't know if it even bothers to watch for voltage rise to implement CSMA/CD. I think those baluns are the same thing as running 10 megabit ethernet 10base2 over RG-58 but they include a matching pulse conversion transformer and terminating resistors. That makes the coax wire a collision domain. I never ran anything like that at 100mbit (because it didn't exist, there was TCNS or 100mbit ARCNET over fiber but I digress). I can tell you that on a 10base2 segment you were looking at a maxium of about 3 megabits of throughput due to collisions. It gets worse with more devices on the network. If the scale holds you could potentially get 30 megabits on a 100m link with these things and a few devices chatting. As a matter of fact, you could check the MIB II stats on a network switch and see if there are runts, jabbers, head on collisions like in the old days. Gigabit will not work because it uses all four pairs on the same carrier frequency. They could all be encoded over one wire but it would require frequency shifting or time division multiplexing, all of which are outside the realm of anything passive or this cheap. These things work great for security cameras because 99% of the traffic would be from the camera to the NVR or whatever consumer, not a lot of bi-directional communications.If you put users or media streamers or anything bidirectional it will break down at some point. Use these things if you like but know you can't cheat physics. If you do stick with them please give us a report and let us know how it works. Perhaps it's good enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj4 Posted March 8, 2021 Share Posted March 8, 2021 10 hours ago, mindedc1 said: Use these things if you like but know you can't cheat physics. If you do stick with them please give us a report and let us know how it works. Perhaps it's good enough. I cheat physics every day Will keep you all posted on what I find. It should be delivered tomorrow. mindedc1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshMania Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 On 3/5/2021 at 6:04 PM, eddy.trochez said: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1578622-REG/everfocus_palunii_palun_ii_ip_poe.html So whats the difference between Plaun II (https://www.everfocus.com/product/ins.php?index_m1_id=3&index_m2_id=28&index_m3_id=85&index_id=702) and Netco (https://www.everfocus.com/product/ins.php?index_m1_id=3&index_m2_id=28&index_m3_id=85&index_id=719)? Is the PALUN II POE while the the NETCO Ethernet only? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmj4 Posted March 9, 2021 Share Posted March 9, 2021 On 3/8/2021 at 10:17 AM, tmj4 said: I cheat physics every day Will keep you all posted on what I find. It should be delivered tomorrow. The moment you've all been waiting for....... Theses things can do a whopping 10/100. They do in fact work as advertised, just not as some places have specified as being able to do 10/100/1000. Back to B&H they go as I'll be sticking with my MoCA devices from Actiontec instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 On 3/6/2021 at 2:38 PM, OceanDad said: I've used the Channel Vision B-204 with success before, which is most definitely a balun. No it isn't. A balun is defined as a device that changes a balanced signal to an unbalanced signal (and back). But that's getting technical Where do you think the term BalUn comes from Channel Vision also marks the as 'converters'. But at 10Mbps these are REALLY for low use retrofit where space is a big concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindedc1 Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 So there appear to be two flavors of these things. The completely passive ones are what I was ranting about earlier. They are passive components and make it work like old school 10base2 (google if you don't know what that is). That's going to really stink for anything outside of a camera on the far end due to collisions. The other kind are powered via POE and have active electronics. Looks like some of those are more advanced than others but would potentially get you an actual 100mb out of the wire. The real answer is MOCA. Just in case someone in a year digs this thread up there is another class of ethernet to copper conversion called VDSL. It's similar signaling to ADSL which is now branded Uverse by a certain carrier. Those can operate over any two copper pairs and depending on noise and distance get from 100mb down to a few megabits... Powerline is also a player at a few hundred megabit.... Or just go wifi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanDad Posted March 10, 2021 Author Share Posted March 10, 2021 13 hours ago, Cyknight said: No it isn't. A balun is defined as a device that changes a balanced signal to an unbalanced signal (and back). But that's getting technical Where do you think the term BalUn comes from Channel Vision also marks the as 'converters'. Channel Vision market them as balun over coax converters, whatever that means. https://channelvision.com/product/ip-camera-balun-over-coax-converter-kit/ Good news is they just seem to work - long coax runs, 8MP cameras, no issues so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 2 hours ago, OceanDad said: Channel Vision market them as balun over coax converters, whatever that means. https://channelvision.com/product/ip-camera-balun-over-coax-converter-kit/ Good news is they just seem to work - long coax runs, 8MP cameras, no issues so far. Oh? Those things are rated 10Mb/s. 5MP camera at H264 at high and 60Fps requires more than double that bandwith on the network. Even if you were to lower that to 30 fps and use H265 high you'd need a true 8 Mb/s. And that's single stream (ie not main + sub) So are they REALLY working for 8MP cams? OR can they be made to work by not using that cam to it's potential. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindedc1 Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 The slowdown in a shared media situation is from collisions, if you just have a camera blasting video one way and every once in a while send a packet to it you can get near the 10mbit line rate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanDad Posted March 10, 2021 Author Share Posted March 10, 2021 2 hours ago, Cyknight said: 5MP camera at H264 at high and 60Fps Who runs security cameras at 60FPS ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2021 Share Posted March 10, 2021 1 hour ago, mindedc1 said: The slowdown in a shared media situation is from collisions, if you just have a camera blasting video one way and every once in a while send a packet to it you can get near the 10mbit line rate. Numbers are based on one way traffic. https://www.cctvcalculator.net/en/calculations/bandwidth-calculator/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceanDad Posted March 13, 2021 Author Share Posted March 13, 2021 On 3/10/2021 at 12:15 PM, Cyknight said: So are they REALLY working for 8MP cams? OR can they be made to work by not using that cam to it's potential. So - a little more on this. I've got 6 of the Channel Vision balun/not a balun now installed. All the cameras are happily running at their max resolutions - 3 at 8MP/4K, 2 at 4MP, one at 6MP. Frame rates are set at between 20 and 30FPS for viewing and recording on the main stream, and everything is running very happily. No disconnects since installing, no dropouts or stuttering. You'd never know that these cameras weren't wired over CAT6. I even found a no-brand version of the same piece on Amazon. Bought a couple just to see - worked just the same for half the price. Went back today to see if I could order more - out of stock. Anyway - balun or no balun, these things solved the problem for me. Channel Vision B-204. About $90 per pair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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