Looking For Advice on New Home Build With C4

[Anm3910]

Hey everyone,

 

I've done a bit of digging on here and in the C4 subreddit. There have been a lot of good pieces of info to grab, but I wanted to make this post to hopefully get more (and more up to date) input from those more familiar with C4, since this would be my first experience. To make it clear, i'm pretty committed to using the C4 ecosystem, functionally it seems fantastic. I'm no dummy, but I just want something that will work without me needing to go in and tinker all the time, and it seems like C4 meets that need.

I'm having a new house built, should be ready in april, and as part of "Stage 1" I had the A/V dealer that's partnered with the builder drop a ton of prewiring and conduit into the house. He is also going to to set up the networking and security cameras for the house. Future steps will involve actually putting in the C4 controllers/screens, then audio, lighting/shades etc, so really the full package. 

I understand that there is a premium associated with C4, the dealer network, and a lot of the products/brands in the ecosystem. I understand this is all a "closed system" and therefore pricing and information is kept intentionally opaque from the public. I'm willing to pay that premium where it makes sense to do so. I guess what I'm hoping to get here is really an honest opinion of some of these products being recommended to me from someone other than the sales guy that stands to directly benefit from selling me more stuff. 

As an example, take the Araknis networking equipment I was quoted. The house is 2,400 sqft and 4 stories, do I really need four $746 WAPs? Can I tell him I'll just set up Ubiquiti WAPs for a fraction, and if so what issues am I looking at down the line? Should I really spend $362 on a 16 port unmanaged switch when Cisco sells them for $77. Do I NEED their $2,700 27u rack, or can I buy my own for ~$1,200. I truly don't know. What are areas where I can push back, and what are some areas where, for the sake of having the system "just work" I should just pay the extra cost. Even things like audio. They're heavily pushing Origin "because it works well with the system." Is that just them promoting a high margin product or is it actually the best tool for the job?

 

I hope this didn't come off as a rant; I'm excited about getting this going and I'm willing to spend money on the system, just not willing to throw money away for no reason. I'd be happy to go into more detail about the house, what I want out of the project, or the $80k quote I was given for the full package. Also open to PMs to get into the details.

 

Thanks everyone!

[LollerAgent]

Dealers typically quote you things that:

a) They are comfortable with and knowledgable about
b) That they can get support on from the vendors
c) That they make a decent margin on

SnapOne (who owns C4) owns Araknis, so that is probably why they are quoting the Araknis networking gear.  Personally, I would not pay $750 for an Araknis AP.  In fact, I wouldn't ever install Araknis gear in my own home -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't work -- it's just not my preference.  Ubiquiti works perfectly fine when configured appropriately -- regardless of what folks may tell you.  Your dealer may not be comfortable with Ubiquiti though -- and he certainly isn't going to make as much money selling you Ubiquiti than he would if he sells you Araknis.  He also has someone to call if he needs help with Araknis.  He can probably "guarantee" that it will work as expected, where he may not be able to if you asked him to use Ubiquiti.

Origin makes fantastic speakers -- you really can't go wrong with them if you are willing to pay for them.

[RAV]

Can you supply and maintain your own network, sure.
That's a conversation to be had with your dealer, as mentioned, dealers typically pick a brand rather than trying to learn a dozen.
There are some requirements, and things to watch out for. Networks at that level aren't as plug and play, and many home owners want one person to call to make it right, so that's a decision and a conversation to be had.

As to the rack, maybe hire a 3rd party to review the proposal, there (hopefully) may be more in that line item than just a rack.

[Anm3910]

33 minutes ago, LollerAgent said:

Dealers typically quote you things that:

a) They are comfortable with and knowledgable about
b) That they can get support on from the vendors
c) That they make a decent margin on

SnapOne (who owns C4) owns Araknis, so that is probably why they are quoting the Araknis networking gear.  Personally, I would not pay $750 for an Araknis AP.  In fact, I wouldn't ever install Araknis gear in my own home -- but that doesn't mean it doesn't work -- it's just not my preference.  Ubiquiti works perfectly fine when configured appropriately -- regardless of what folks may tell you.  Your dealer may not be comfortable with Ubiquiti though -- and he certainly isn't going to make as much money selling you Ubiquiti than he would if he sells you Araknis.  He also has someone to call if he needs help with Araknis.  He can probably "guarantee" that it will work as expected, where he may not be able to if you asked him to use Ubiquiti.

Origin makes fantastic speakers -- you really can't go wrong with them if you are willing to pay for them.

Thank you, this is more or less the type of input I am looking for. I don't doubt that the Araknis gear will be easier to troubleshoot for my dealer, I just wondered if it was worth the significant markup. If you ask him, of course, it's worth it, but he has a vested interest. It's just good to know that other options are pretty viable.

 

As far as Origin goes, appreciate the opinion. I'm not an audiophile or anything and just want a quality speaker that wont sound tinny or rattling when we play music or movies.

[Anm3910]

38 minutes ago, RAV said:

Can you supply and maintain your own network, sure.
That's a conversation to be had with your dealer, as mentioned, dealers typically pick a brand rather than trying to learn a dozen.
There are some requirements, and things to watch out for. Networks at that level aren't as plug and play, and many home owners want one person to call to make it right, so that's a decision and a conversation to be had.

As to the rack, maybe hire a 3rd party to review the proposal, there (hopefully) may be more in that line item than just a rack.

Well there was a conversation with my dealer, who essentially gave me a sales pitch about why I should 100% go with their Araknis labeled gear. That conversation is the reason I ended up coming here looking for opinions other than the guy making money off of me. Would you mind outlining some of the things to watch out for? And in your experience, have the added complexities of installing a brand outside of dealers preferred brand been worth the cost savings? I don't mind doing a bit of work myself, but as mentioned in the post what I dont want is to be constantly messing with settings and tinkering around. If you're telling me my best option is to just bite the bullet and pay for the expensive brand then I'll probably do it. But if you're suggesting that I can source some of my own parts without an excess headache in terms of maintenance, then obviously I'd rather go that route.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Anm3910
added a couple words

[RAV]

50 minutes ago, Anm3910 said:

Well there was a conversation with my dealer, who essentially gave me a sales pitch about why I should 100% go with their Araknis labeled gear. That conversation is the reason I ended up coming here looking for opinions other than the guy making money off of me. Would you mind outlining some of the things to watch out for? And in your experience, have the added complexities of installing a brand outside of dealers preferred brand been worth the cost savings? I don't mind doing a bit of work myself, but as mentioned in the post what I dont want is to be constantly messing with settings and tinkering around. If you're telling me my best option is to just bite the bullet and pay for the expensive brand then I'll probably do it. But if you're suggesting that I can source some of my own parts without an excess headache in terms of maintenance, then obviously I'd rather go that route.

Less focus on A vs U brand. (I'm not using names to make the point)
It's more do you want to manage the network, or pay someone else to do it.
If there's a issue with something not staying connected to the network, or needing tweaks, or updates, are you willing to put in the time.
And be sure the dealer will point the finger at the network first. "We don't have that issue on other projects...." right or wrong, it's a likely outcome.

I sell the A. I prefer to have a company that I can call and get support, and warranty replacements, and updates, and tech training, and what not to support my clients.
Most of my clients can't tell a router from a switch and an AP is a website to get news articles.
U is a viable product, but it's not the business plan I wish to work with. It's good gear, but no backside dealer support.

[Control4Savant]

3 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

Hey everyone,

 

I've done a bit of digging on here and in the C4 subreddit. There have been a lot of good pieces of info to grab, but I wanted to make this post to hopefully get more (and more up to date) input from those more familiar with C4, since this would be my first experience. To make it clear, i'm pretty committed to using the C4 ecosystem, functionally it seems fantastic. I'm no dummy, but I just want something that will work without me needing to go in and tinker all the time, and it seems like C4 meets that need.

I'm having a new house built, should be ready in april, and as part of "Stage 1" I had the A/V dealer that's partnered with the builder drop a ton of prewiring and conduit into the house. He is also going to to set up the networking and security cameras for the house. Future steps will involve actually putting in the C4 controllers/screens, then audio, lighting/shades etc, so really the full package. 

I understand that there is a premium associated with C4, the dealer network, and a lot of the products/brands in the ecosystem. I understand this is all a "closed system" and therefore pricing and information is kept intentionally opaque from the public. I'm willing to pay that premium where it makes sense to do so. I guess what I'm hoping to get here is really an honest opinion of some of these products being recommended to me from someone other than the sales guy that stands to directly benefit from selling me more stuff. 

As an example, take the Araknis networking equipment I was quoted. The house is 2,400 sqft and 4 stories, do I really need four $746 WAPs? Can I tell him I'll just set up Ubiquiti WAPs for a fraction, and if so what issues am I looking at down the line? Should I really spend $362 on a 16 port unmanaged switch when Cisco sells them for $77. Do I NEED their $2,700 27u rack, or can I buy my own for ~$1,200. I truly don't know. What are areas where I can push back, and what are some areas where, for the sake of having the system "just work" I should just pay the extra cost. Even things like audio. They're heavily pushing Origin "because it works well with the system." Is that just them promoting a high margin product or is it actually the best tool for the job?

 

I hope this didn't come off as a rant; I'm excited about getting this going and I'm willing to spend money on the system, just not willing to throw money away for no reason. I'd be happy to go into more detail about the house, what I want out of the project, or the $80k quote I was given for the full package. Also open to PMs to get into the details.

 

Thanks everyone!

Yes, unless you do not want to/do not know manage your networking you can absolutely use Ubiquiti aps and 3rd party switches.. Do NOT let your dealer force you into an AV network brand twice as expensive that is half the quality just so he can have large profit margins. 

lol.. $2700 27u rack…

Origin “because it works well with the system” has no validity.  At the end the day it’s another compatible 3rd party AV brand with high profits that they are a dealer of. 

Equal profit margins exist and installation costs shouldnt change. Ask for alternative options. If they don’t have that ability the dealer is about profiting as much as possible. 

 

[Cyknight]

I'll answer as a dealer:

5 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

I had the A/V dealer that's partnered with the builder drop a ton of prewiring and conduit into the house.

Great - getting this in is often underrated.

5 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

The house is 2,400 sqft and 4 stories, do I really need four $746 WAPs?

What type of build is it? All cement/brick then you may well need an AP per floor. If wood studding, I'd start with two noting that if signal is insufficient you may need to add more.

5 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

Can I tell him I'll just set up Ubiquiti WAPs

You can tell him, but understand that he'll likely not support your network if he's not giving the option himself - and that COULD open a can of worms. He may even refuse to do the system outright.

We don't support user setup networks either (though we'll work with an existing setup): I get that you say you're no dummy, but from a company perspective, it's impossible to support something that you don't have control over WHEN IT IS THAT IMPORTANT to the overall function of the system. And networking is soooooooooooo often the cause of issues in a system. So while I don't AGREE with not doing a system unless doing the network as well - that does come with some caveats (most basic being that any service calls that result from networking will not be covered by any warranty or service agreement)

5 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

Should I really spend $362 on a 16 port unmanaged switch when Cisco sells them for $77

Cisco doesn't sell switches for 77. More like 150. Linksys does. Don't use consumer grade networking gear. Not sure what switch he's quoting, but if it's an araknis 2xx series (which i assume based on the price), it's not quite an unmanaged switch. It'll have numerous management/monitoring options. Not saying it has to cost that, but again, a bit more info on what it is would help. Also, don't use consumer networking gear - just don't.

 

5 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

Do I NEED their $2,700 27u rack, or can I buy my own for ~$1,200.

Mid Atlantic likely. Again, hard to say if it's a strange price not knowing what is quoted. But yeah MidA 's racks are fantastic but way to costly UNLESS there's a reason to use them (quake rating for example in commercial setups). Course I don't know if it includes all shelves, wiring guides, added cooling, and all the time needed to install everything.....)

5 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

They're heavily pushing Origin "because it works well with the system."

OK. So GREAT speakers, but if it's just speakers....well they're just that - they don't 'work well' at all, they just work. If it's top notch sound you want, they're a good option. If it's their outdoor gear, or 70v gear, then OK, it does work well. So does Episode by Snap for a fraction of the price. I'm calling full BS on that motivation.

5 hours ago, Anm3910 said:

What are areas where I can push back, and what are some areas where, for the sake of having the system "just work" I should just pay the extra cost.

Welp. It's YOUR home is it not? You are allowed to push back on everything you want to. It's your house, will be your system. Where the dealer will go with that though I couldn't say.

 

From a dealer perspective:

We spec networking to size, and for a reason. We either do it the right way there, or we don't do it. 'Course we also don't overspec the amount of gear....and yes we are not unwilling to have you do your own APs as long as we approve them beforehand: we'll except any decent Wifi that we know do not cause major issues, and no mesh networking (don't expect us to accept EEro mesh setups, ubiquiti? Sure). The pure system networking will be ours to setup (note that of course it's going to be case by case to some degree: commercial setups, existing setups or people that have their company IT contractors....we'll work with)

Controllers: you accept what we offer in most scenarios. If we feel there's wiggle room, we'll have quoted multiple options and explained them. We'll also explain in however much detail why we quote what we did as requested.

Rack: we usually have a much better price than you would ever find, but as long as it's the correct size (in 'U' as well as depth, has rear rack rails for management bars etc etc) and has standard mounting .... don't really care.

A/V: Switching we quote what we know works. Amplification, sources, speakers, we offer multiple options and are willing to discuss if there are client preferences. In most cases, this is no issues to come in yourself to add what you need/want.

 

 

In more general terms:

We provide the core system with the devices we know works, fits the requirements and that -and this is the most important part- we can SUPPORT (and have proper support on the back end). That portion (so basically the core network, C4 controller setup (we don't follow the one controller per TV, which is ridiculous and spec to system size) and any A/V switching we won't budge on equipment as such (we can work with you to make a more basic system of course, dropping some of the luxury/function to drop the bill).

Anything else, we can certainly discuss, and as long as we're comfortable controlling it (ie sources) and we don't feel it's an overall bad idea (crappy amps that will blow up your speakers, wifi we KNOW will cause issues) we can likely accommodate as far as options are concerned.

 

In the end, it's your house, your system. I can't comment on any builder/contractor requirements that may be in place, but once the house is yours, so is the wiring. Nothing stops you from shopping around for other dealers, nothing stops you from pushing back on the current one to get a better budget fitting option.

 

 

Note that I'm talking general terms here: if you feel the quote is too much fora video switch, we can always come up with options, talk about replacing all your TVs with 4K so we don't need scaling video switches, or even grade you down to 1080p for distribution with local 4K sources for major rooms, lower the individual rooms by combining areas etc etc etc - a single quote is never a final quote.

That said, do remember that you get what you pay for: going cheap on everything rarely works out well.

 

[ChzBurger]

I think you've gotten some good advice here. UniFi is fine. A couple of other points:

Really think about how many touch screens you need. It's easy to go overboard and they're expensive. The number required depends on how you use the system. My house came with none and I don't think I really miss having them. Maybe I'd change my mind if I had some?

On the audio side make sure your music sources work well with the system. C4 plays mediocrely with both Apple Music and Spotify. There are some services that do play well with C4. You say your are not an audiophile, so if you expect to use either Apple or Spotify you should at least consider Sonos which works great with both services. Sonos also works well with C4 except browsing music requires use of Sonos/Spotify/Apple apps (so not on C4 touch screens). Sonos may not save money depending on number of zones.

Edited February 25, 2023 by ChzBurger
Clarity

[Anm3910]

11 hours ago, Cyknight said:

I'll answer as a dealer:

Great - getting this in is often underrated.

What type of build is it? All cement/brick then you may well need an AP per floor. If wood studding, I'd start with two noting that if signal is insufficient you may need to add more.

You can tell him, but understand that he'll likely not support your network if he's not giving the option himself - and that COULD open a can of worms. He may even refuse to do the system outright.

We don't support user setup networks either (though we'll work with an existing setup): I get that you say you're no dummy, but from a company perspective, it's impossible to support something that you don't have control over WHEN IT IS THAT IMPORTANT to the overall function of the system. And networking is soooooooooooo often the cause of issues in a system. So while I don't AGREE with not doing a system unless doing the network as well - that does come with some caveats (most basic being that any service calls that result from networking will not be covered by any warranty or service agreement)

Cisco doesn't sell switches for 77. More like 150. Linksys does. Don't use consumer grade networking gear. Not sure what switch he's quoting, but if it's an araknis 2xx series (which i assume based on the price), it's not quite an unmanaged switch. It'll have numerous management/monitoring options. Not saying it has to cost that, but again, a bit more info on what it is would help. Also, don't use consumer networking gear - just don't.

 

Mid Atlantic likely. Again, hard to say if it's a strange price not knowing what is quoted. But yeah MidA 's racks are fantastic but way to costly UNLESS there's a reason to use them (quake rating for example in commercial setups). Course I don't know if it includes all shelves, wiring guides, added cooling, and all the time needed to install everything.....)

OK. So GREAT speakers, but if it's just speakers....well they're just that - they don't 'work well' at all, they just work. If it's top notch sound you want, they're a good option. If it's their outdoor gear, or 70v gear, then OK, it does work well. So does Episode by Snap for a fraction of the price. I'm calling full BS on that motivation.

Welp. It's YOUR home is it not? You are allowed to push back on everything you want to. It's your house, will be your system. Where the dealer will go with that though I couldn't say.

 

From a dealer perspective:

We spec networking to size, and for a reason. We either do it the right way there, or we don't do it. 'Course we also don't overspec the amount of gear....and yes we are not unwilling to have you do your own APs as long as we approve them beforehand: we'll except any decent Wifi that we know do not cause major issues, and no mesh networking (don't expect us to accept EEro mesh setups, ubiquiti? Sure). The pure system networking will be ours to setup (note that of course it's going to be case by case to some degree: commercial setups, existing setups or people that have their company IT contractors....we'll work with)

Controllers: you accept what we offer in most scenarios. If we feel there's wiggle room, we'll have quoted multiple options and explained them. We'll also explain in however much detail why we quote what we did as requested.

Rack: we usually have a much better price than you would ever find, but as long as it's the correct size (in 'U' as well as depth, has rear rack rails for management bars etc etc) and has standard mounting .... don't really care.

A/V: Switching we quote what we know works. Amplification, sources, speakers, we offer multiple options and are willing to discuss if there are client preferences. In most cases, this is no issues to come in yourself to add what you need/want.

 

 

In more general terms:

We provide the core system with the devices we know works, fits the requirements and that -and this is the most important part- we can SUPPORT (and have proper support on the back end). That portion (so basically the core network, C4 controller setup (we don't follow the one controller per TV, which is ridiculous and spec to system size) and any A/V switching we won't budge on equipment as such (we can work with you to make a more basic system of course, dropping some of the luxury/function to drop the bill).

Anything else, we can certainly discuss, and as long as we're comfortable controlling it (ie sources) and we don't feel it's an overall bad idea (crappy amps that will blow up your speakers, wifi we KNOW will cause issues) we can likely accommodate as far as options are concerned.

 

In the end, it's your house, your system. I can't comment on any builder/contractor requirements that may be in place, but once the house is yours, so is the wiring. Nothing stops you from shopping around for other dealers, nothing stops you from pushing back on the current one to get a better budget fitting option.

 

 

Note that I'm talking general terms here: if you feel the quote is too much fora video switch, we can always come up with options, talk about replacing all your TVs with 4K so we don't need scaling video switches, or even grade you down to 1080p for distribution with local 4K sources for major rooms, lower the individual rooms by combining areas etc etc etc - a single quote is never a final quote.

That said, do remember that you get what you pay for: going cheap on everything rarely works out well.

 

Thank you for this really detailed write-up. This is exactly what I was looking for, and helps put into perspective some of the potential hazards of going my own way. I'd definitely be looking for support and so I think it might be best to go with the dealer supported brands (even if I end up going with a different dealer.) When I make a service call I want to be able to have the issue resolved relatively pain free, and it sounds like sourcing my own products could really hamper that. I'll take your advice to call around to a few different dealers as well and see if they have any more flexibility than the dealer I was working with. 

Copy on the speaker comments as well. Luckily, thats a conversation for later in the year, so I have some time before making a decision on brands etc. the prewiring is already all there.

[Anm3910]

52 minutes ago, ChzBurger said:

I think you've gotten some good advice here. UniFi is fine. A couple of other points:

Really think about how many touch screens you need. It's easy to go overboard and they're expensive. The number required depends on how you use the system. My house came with none and I don't think I really miss having them. Maybe I'd change my mind if I had some?

On the audio side make sure your music sources work well with the system. C4 plays mediocrely with both Apple Music and Spotify. There are some services that do play well with C4. You say your are not an audiophile, so if you expect to use either Apple or Spotify you should at least consider Sonos which works great with both services. Sonos also works well with C4 except browsing music requires use of Sonos/Spotify/Apple apps (so not on C4 touch screens). Sonos may not save money depending on number of zones.

This has been a bit of a concern for me as well. When I say not an audiophile, I guess I meant that I don't need top of the line speakers for a dedicated listening room. I just want something that sounds good for everyday listening, parties, and movies. Music will almost ALWAYS be on at the house. I've come up entirely on Apple Music and Spotify, and I would love to continue using them, but want to maintain a seamless experience Are you saying that if I go with a sonos system for AM/Spotify, I'll need to do all of the controls through my phone, and the touchscreen is completely useless? or the touchscreen has limited functionality with these services? Exactly how hampered are you? I have nothing against Tidal, I've just never used it, so am inclined towards the more familiar option unless it hamstrings me.

[Double D]

11 hours ago, Cyknight said:

I'll answer as a dealer:

Great - getting this in is often underrated.

What type of build is it? All cement/brick then you may well need an AP per floor. If wood studding, I'd start with two noting that if signal is insufficient you may need to add more.

You can tell him, but understand that he'll likely not support your network if he's not giving the option himself - and that COULD open a can of worms. He may even refuse to do the system outright.

We don't support user setup networks either (though we'll work with an existing setup): I get that you say you're no dummy, but from a company perspective, it's impossible to support something that you don't have control over WHEN IT IS THAT IMPORTANT to the overall function of the system. And networking is soooooooooooo often the cause of issues in a system. So while I don't AGREE with not doing a system unless doing the network as well - that does come with some caveats (most basic being that any service calls that result from networking will not be covered by any warranty or service agreement)

Cisco doesn't sell switches for 77. More like 150. Linksys does. Don't use consumer grade networking gear. Not sure what switch he's quoting, but if it's an araknis 2xx series (which i assume based on the price), it's not quite an unmanaged switch. It'll have numerous management/monitoring options. Not saying it has to cost that, but again, a bit more info on what it is would help. Also, don't use consumer networking gear - just don't.

 

Mid Atlantic likely. Again, hard to say if it's a strange price not knowing what is quoted. But yeah MidA 's racks are fantastic but way to costly UNLESS there's a reason to use them (quake rating for example in commercial setups). Course I don't know if it includes all shelves, wiring guides, added cooling, and all the time needed to install everything.....)

OK. So GREAT speakers, but if it's just speakers....well they're just that - they don't 'work well' at all, they just work. If it's top notch sound you want, they're a good option. If it's their outdoor gear, or 70v gear, then OK, it does work well. So does Episode by Snap for a fraction of the price. I'm calling full BS on that motivation.

Welp. It's YOUR home is it not? You are allowed to push back on everything you want to. It's your house, will be your system. Where the dealer will go with that though I couldn't say.

 

From a dealer perspective:

We spec networking to size, and for a reason. We either do it the right way there, or we don't do it. 'Course we also don't overspec the amount of gear....and yes we are not unwilling to have you do your own APs as long as we approve them beforehand: we'll except any decent Wifi that we know do not cause major issues, and no mesh networking (don't expect us to accept EEro mesh setups, ubiquiti? Sure). The pure system networking will be ours to setup (note that of course it's going to be case by case to some degree: commercial setups, existing setups or people that have their company IT contractors....we'll work with)

Controllers: you accept what we offer in most scenarios. If we feel there's wiggle room, we'll have quoted multiple options and explained them. We'll also explain in however much detail why we quote what we did as requested.

Rack: we usually have a much better price than you would ever find, but as long as it's the correct size (in 'U' as well as depth, has rear rack rails for management bars etc etc) and has standard mounting .... don't really care.

A/V: Switching we quote what we know works. Amplification, sources, speakers, we offer multiple options and are willing to discuss if there are client preferences. In most cases, this is no issues to come in yourself to add what you need/want.

 

 

In more general terms:

We provide the core system with the devices we know works, fits the requirements and that -and this is the most important part- we can SUPPORT (and have proper support on the back end). That portion (so basically the core network, C4 controller setup (we don't follow the one controller per TV, which is ridiculous and spec to system size) and any A/V switching we won't budge on equipment as such (we can work with you to make a more basic system of course, dropping some of the luxury/function to drop the bill).

Anything else, we can certainly discuss, and as long as we're comfortable controlling it (ie sources) and we don't feel it's an overall bad idea (crappy amps that will blow up your speakers, wifi we KNOW will cause issues) we can likely accommodate as far as options are concerned.

 

In the end, it's your house, your system. I can't comment on any builder/contractor requirements that may be in place, but once the house is yours, so is the wiring. Nothing stops you from shopping around for other dealers, nothing stops you from pushing back on the current one to get a better budget fitting option.

 

 

Note that I'm talking general terms here: if you feel the quote is too much fora video switch, we can always come up with options, talk about replacing all your TVs with 4K so we don't need scaling video switches, or even grade you down to 1080p for distribution with local 4K sources for major rooms, lower the individual rooms by combining areas etc etc etc - a single quote is never a final quote.

That said, do remember that you get what you pay for: going cheap on everything rarely works out well.

 

I agree with almost everything said here, from the dealer perspective.  A very reasonable, balanced take on things.  Your relationship with your dealer should be healthy for both parties.  Dealers obviously need to make their jobs profitable.  The good ones will select products that profitable but not way out of line.  Often these products will have some features that are better/enhanced than similar non-supported online products.  Such as OVRC, the dealer cloud management system, that comes with Araknis.  This allows the dealer full access to every feature of the network remotely, making troubleshooting/servicing issues MUCH quicker/easier and therefore less costly in the long run.  Not to mention, remote reboots, firmware updates, familiarity, total support from the manufacturer and guaranteed compatibility with the overall system (C4, etc).  The Araknis warranty support is outstanding with advanced replacement.  Often the dealer will have the same models in stock for emergency replacements.  ALL of these value adds will likely be billable on a job where the dealer does not provide the network.  Not good for the dealer or client.

 

As far as speakers, the reason given for selecting Origin speakers is sketchy and a possible red flag,  OR possibly just half assed.  The dealer should be able to give you very specific reasons why they chose to support their product lines AND have lower and higher priced alternatives that are still high quality and profitable.  

 

A dealer should bring a TON of added value to a job, far and above the pricing of any individual equipment.  Find a good one that will and that you are comfortable trusting.  Ask for specific reasons on anything questionable.  Definitely find a dealer who is smart, trustworthy and a good match for you even if you need to look elsewhere.  But please realize that this is a very complex business and equipment selection and pricing is a complicated issue.  DM me if you want a quick take of specifics ANM3910.

[Control4Savant]

32 minutes ago, Anm3910 said:

Thank you for this really detailed write-up. This is exactly what I was looking for, and helps put into perspective some of the potential hazards of going my own way. I'd definitely be looking for support and so I think it might be best to go with the dealer supported brands (even if I end up going with a different dealer.) When I make a service call I want to be able to have the issue resolved relatively pain free, and it sounds like sourcing my own products could really hamper that. I'll take your advice to call around to a few different dealers as well and see if they have any more flexibility than the dealer I was working with. 

Copy on the speaker comments as well. Luckily, thats a conversation for later in the year, so I have some time before making a decision on brands etc. the prewiring is already all there.

Plenty of dealers do not support or use Araknis and will immediately remove it for their preferred networking so again, this is all just specific to how each professional wants to do their project. There is no… use product  ‘A’ so that dealers. 2, 3 and 4 all are ok with it as well…. I say this as one of those dealers. 

[ChzBurger]

11 minutes ago, Anm3910 said:

Are you saying that if I go with a sonos system for AM/Spotify, I'll need to do all of the controls through my phone, and the touchscreen is completely useless? or the touchscreen has limited functionality with these services? Exactly how hampered are you? I have nothing against Tidal, I've just never used it, so am inclined towards the more familiar option unless it hamstrings me.

All you lose with Sonos is browsing music within the C4 interface. Sonos playlists and favorites are supported in C4. C4 volume works and what's playing shows in the C4 apps. 

[Cyknight]

On 2/25/2023 at 8:25 AM, Control4Savant said:

this is all just specific to how each professional wants to do their project

Indeed, my write up was -just to be clear- not in specific support of any singular product in any part of the project. The only thing where I just see a million issues is poor networking. This is where I warn against using 'consumer grade' gear.

On 2/25/2023 at 8:25 AM, Control4Savant said:

Plenty of dealers do not support or use Araknis and will immediately remove it for their preferred networking

IMHO ripping out ANY appropriate network setup doesn't need to be ripped out - be it Araknis, Ubiquiti or whatever.

But yes, a lot of dealers, especially those not as familiar with networking do require using their OWN brand. And I don't completely disagree with that stance, other than that I believe no dealer (of C4, Savant, Elan, Crestron and you name it) should be operating without at least someone capable of setting up and managing any (proper) network setup..... but when it comes to Araknis (and now Access Network) at least those dealers have a true full support behind them to manage it all.

[Andrew luecke]

3 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Indeed, my write up was -just to be clear- not in specific support of any singular product in any part of the project. The only thing where I just see a million issues is poor networking. This is where I warn against using 'consumer grade' gear.

IMHO ripping out ANY appropriate network setup doesn't need to be ripped out - be it Araknis, Ubiquiti or whatever.

But yes, a lot of dealers, especially those not as familiar with networking do require using their OWN brand. And I don't completely disagree with that stance, other than that I believe no dealer (of C4, Savant, Elan, Crestron and you name it) should be operating without at least someone capable of setting up and managing any (proper) network setup..... but when it comes to Araknis (and now Access Network) at least those dealers have a true full support behind them to manage it all.

Pretty much this. 

 

Also, suggesting any gear works well with the system is not true, and different brands might cost different rates to implement.

Case in point.

1. Watchguard or other policy based routers. Professional routers, but take ages to set up. Furthermore, a higher level of expertise is required to set these up. Anyone who has set up one before knows a product like watchguard can take longer than an hour to properly deploy. And some consumer routers have bugs which means things need to be set up in a not ideal way. Furthermore, just because a user has more complicated/advanced equipment, doesn't mean they know anything about networking (but they might expect you to use all of their settings, or fix mistakes with their settings for free). Like, I'd love to see some Aruba's onsite, but, I also know if the customer told me they'll set it up themself, that they'll likely mess up the configuration, and I'll have to spend time checking and fixing the settings   
2. Furthermore, if a customer cruises in with a cheap residential router, for a multi-million dollar property that needs VLAN's, it's almost guaranteed you'll be getting phone calls in the night on a Saturday.. I got REALLY tired of seeing crappy cheap TPLink or netgear All-In-One routers.. Some ISP routers actually lose their settings intermittently. 
3. Some equipment has KNOWN serious issues. Orbi as an example. Recent forum posts also seem to be suggesting that TPLink Omada has issues too with Halo too.   In the past, Unifi also had some serious issues (but these seem to be fixed) 
4. 3rd party equipment can increase the risk during install, because the manufacturer may not know the specifics related to home automation if support is needed. This is a big benefit for Araknis and Access Networks (SNAP knows exactly what parameters need to be set to operate best). As an example, in the past, really old samsung on Wifi on Unifi seemed to require UAPSD to connect..  
5. Some of this equipment may also have bad defaults, which may be difficult to identify. The DLINK DGS-1210 series switches used to ship with EEE enabled by default. This causes issues with a lot of things (eventually they changed the default though). Unifi STILL ships with UAPSD turned off, and almost every site I attended, it was disabled (this has a huge impact on battery life, and the speed that devices reconnect after sleeping).  
6. Managed switches. If you're installing something like Control4, you should be installing them.. I'm not really sure why this installer is installing an unmanaged switch unless its a really simple installation. 
7. I have yet to meet a customer who didn't reckon their network wasn't mostly working perfectly, except when network loop protection explicitly kicked in. But, even with a network loop, Netflix and such will appear to work fine because it buffers. But for automation, they'll complain everything works fine, but their home automation is acting funny.. 
8. Some products also don't implement things like 802.11k and 802.11v properly. They also might not have UAPSD. 
9. Some products like Unifi have NO direct support route, and in the past, they have released bad firmware (at one point, they blew up the 5ghz radios). They've gotten a lot better though (I use Unifi at home, and used to install it). Again, this is risk management. 
10. Some manufacturers also used to be on the Do not use networking list (Ubiquiti was actually 1 of them). And it's a reason why some installers are reluctant to use them

Also, I have NEVER heard of an installer that selected Araknis specifically because of the profit margin, but rather risk management (other brands though, yes, as Unifi is notoriously low-margin). The justification always comes down to because its a snap product, they can directly support it (and there is a fallback to them if things aren't working). 

That being said, I wouldn't expect issues with Unifi these days (make sure UAPSD is turned on, and multicast enhancement is off). But, you should only use it if your installer is familiar with it or if you're good at networking. Also, using third party equipment may certainly affect the price of installation. If its a high end property though, you should actually be using Access networks, not Araknis anyway.

[Midnight1982]

On 2/25/2023 at 10:27 AM, RAV said:

Less focus on A vs U brand. (I'm not using names to make the point)
It's more do you want to manage the network, or pay someone else to do it.
If there's a issue with something not staying connected to the network, or needing tweaks, or updates, are you willing to put in the time.
And be sure the dealer will point the finger at the network first. "We don't have that issue on other projects...." right or wrong, it's a likely outcome.

I sell the A. I prefer to have a company that I can call and get support, and warranty replacements, and updates, and tech training, and what not to support my clients.
Most of my clients can't tell a router from a switch and an AP is a website to get news articles.
U is a viable product, but it's not the business plan I wish to work with. It's good gear, but no backside dealer support.

 

 

love the A and U...ive used A and dont rate tho for the on going head ache - Used U before many a time without much hassle or ongoing updates.

 

The P was much the same was at a site other day and 3-4 years old and all the WAP and Router needed updating.