Options for integrating motorized windows

[DLite]

We have a couple of awning windows mounted very high in a hallway. As a result of their position, they are opened and closed via two small motors, each of which are directly connected to wall-mounted paddle switches.

I'd love to be able to integrate them into C4, if possible. E.g., it would be nice to have them close automatically when we arm the security system, etc.  What might be our options for integration?

Thanks

[C4 User]

2 hours ago, DLite said:

We have a couple of awning windows mounted very high in a hallway. As a result of their position, they are opened and closed via two small motors, each of which are directly connected to wall-mounted paddle switches.

I'd love to be able to integrate them into C4, if possible. E.g., it would be nice to have them close automatically when we arm the security system, etc.  What might be our options for integration?

Thanks

What voltage are the paddle switches?

[DLite]

20 minutes ago, C4 User said:

What voltage are the paddle switches?

Hmmm. I may not be smart enough to answer that question accurately.

The motor itself is this model: https://www.meanwell-web.com/en-gb/ac-dc-enclosed-power-supply-output-24vdc-at-6-3a-sp--150--24.

And, I've attached a picture of the back panel of the motor, where everything connects.  

Does this help answer the voltage question, or do I need to get more information?

[SpencerT]

That's the AC to DC power supply (24vdc 150w) for the motor(s).

What does the black sleeved pair of wires on the left connect to?

[DLite]

1 hour ago, SpencerT said:

That's the AC to DC power supply (24vdc 150w) for the motor(s).

What does the black sleeved pair of wires on the left connect to?

I can’t tell exactly, because the wires run inside the wall. However, they seem to be headed towards the wall-mounted switch, rather than the window. Would that make sense?

[C4 User]

Can you open the switch box and give us a pic of the wires in the box?

[Amr]

You said 2 motors, so u have a 2nd PSU doing the same thing, right? In this this case this is a fully opened/Fully Closed setup, what are the motors make? This will give a picture of what can be done, the easiest part is to install a Shelly 2.5 behind one of the 2 switches to drive both of them, u will be able to control them from C4, as well as manually from the switches!

Problem with the Shelly it need a 30-50vdc input to operate with, I can’t think of anything in the market operates with 24vdc.

[booch]

Based on the way that PSU is wired, I'm guessing the switches have three positions: 1) circuit broken (not pressed), 2) connect normal polarity and 3) connect reverse polarity. If that's the case, you basically need a two-channel relay to integrate it. The Shelly Plus 2 will run on 24V (assuming it's wired to the switch location, as I say above) and can do that.

But as others have said, to know for sure, need to take more pics of the wiring.

[Elvis]

15 hours ago, DLite said:

We have a couple of awning windows mounted very high in a hallway. As a result of their position, they are opened and closed via two small motors, each of which are directly connected to wall-mounted paddle switches.

I'd love to be able to integrate them into C4, if possible. E.g., it would be nice to have them close automatically when we arm the security system, etc.  What might be our options for integration?

Thanks

I'm 99% sure this can be done by replacing the switch. As others have pointed out, just need to find out what type of switch you need, normal 110v or low voltage. Taking the plate off the switch and taking a picture of it might help the experts tell you if it is low voltage -- which it most likely is.

Can't really tell what the R.C. Opt is.

Might be able to inline a C4 relay on the low voltage to trigger it, but I think replacing the switch might be easiest.

How does the existing switch work, like a normal light switch? Turn it on and they open, turn it off and they close? Or does it work like a garage door opener. Press it once and it opens or closes?

[DLite]

13 hours ago, C4 User said:

Can you open the switch box and give us a pic of the wires in the box?

Thanks, all.  Attached is the picture of the switch.  The grey-sleeved pair of wires from the left do indeed run down to the switch.

And, @booch, you are right that the switch has three positions.  The "up" position causes the window to open. The "middle" position has no effect. The "down" position causes the window to close.  

@Elvis, if I understand your question correctly, the switch operates more like a light switch.  E.g., if you put the switch in the up position, the window will start to open, but if you put it back into neutral before it is done opening, the window will stop moving.  

[Elvis]

2 hours ago, DLite said:

Thanks, all.  Attached is the picture of the switch.  The grey-sleeved pair of wires from the left do indeed run down to the switch.

And, @booch, you are right that the switch has three positions.  The "up" position causes the window to open. The "middle" position has no effect. The "down" position causes the window to close.  

@Elvis, if I understand your question correctly, the switch operates more like a light switch.  E.g., if you put the switch in the up position, the window will start to open, but if you put it back into neutral before it is done opening, the window will stop moving.  

It's got more wires going into it than I expected. I'll bow out and leave this one for the more experienced. Good luck.

[SpencerT]

1 hour ago, Elvis said:

It's got more wires going into it than I expected. I'll bow out and leave this one for the more experienced. Good luck.

Nah, 2 motors tied to one 24v power supply (wired by a 9 year old). No offense to 9 year olds.

@booch called it. Shelly plus 2pm.

[DLite]

27 minutes ago, SpencerT said:

Nah, 2 motors tied to one 24v power supply (wired by a 9 year old). No offense to 9 year olds.

@booch called it. Shelly plus 2pm.

Thanks a lot.

Just to be clear, there are two different motors, one for each window.  So, does that mean I would need two Shelly plus 2pm devices, one for each motor/window?

Edited February 26, 2023 by DLite
Fixed typo

[SpencerT]

Controlled by this single switch? Or separate switches? A Shelly per switch. 

[DLite]

25 minutes ago, SpencerT said:

Controlled by this single switch? Or separate switches? A Shelly per switch. 

They are controlled by separate switches, one for each motor, and one for each window.

So, I think I get it: I need two Shelly Plus 2pm devices, which get installed behind the two switches. Thanks!

 

[Amr]

Yea that’s it, I didn’t get this part of 2xpsu, turned out to be one PSU per Window, makes sense, for the driver u have 2 options Chowmain and Domaudeo, I have both, same prices

[booch]

Duplicate post (can't delete).

[booch]

On 2/26/2023 at 4:53 PM, DLite said:

They are controlled by separate switches, one for each motor, and one for each window.

So, I think I get it: I need two Shelly Plus 2pm devices, which get installed behind the two switches. Thanks!

 

Yes, that's right.

Wire each channel as a parallel path (to the window motors) so the original switches still work.

If you pull the trigger can draw a wiring diagram for you, if helpful. I'm a little confused though why there appears to be 120v at the switch, so you may need to take a better pic of that.

[Cyknight]

One small note that I do want to make here: If you keep the original switches, the system will not be able to track the state of the blinds properly. That shouldn't be a huge issue for automation in this case as there will be dedicated relays for up and down.

A somewhat bigger concern is that there's the possibility of both the switch AND the system sending voltage to the blind. If in that case one sends up and the other sends down.....well that would be a short, a possible fire hazard and more.

 

I strongly suggest you plan to blank the switch, and/or get an alternative to replace them with that runs through the system.

 

Also....CAN a shelly plus 2 handle this? I though that was a dual relay with a shared neutral - that won't work in this case as you need to reverse polarity.

[DLite]

2 hours ago, Cyknight said:

One small note that I do want to make here: If you keep the original switches, the system will not be able to track the state of the blinds properly. That shouldn't be a huge issue for automation in this case as there will be dedicated relays for up and down.

A somewhat bigger concern is that there's the possibility of both the switch AND the system sending voltage to the blind. If in that case one sends up and the other sends down.....well that would be a short, a possible fire hazard and more.

 

I strongly suggest you plan to blank the switch, and/or get an alternative to replace them with that runs through the system.

 

Also....CAN a shelly plus 2 handle this? I though that was a dual relay with a shared neutral - that won't work in this case as you need to reverse polarity.

Ok, that sounds concerning.  What would be an alternative switch that I could use that would run through C4?  Would a C4 low-voltage switch work?

[booch]

3 hours ago, Cyknight said:

One small note that I do want to make here: If you keep the original switches, the system will not be able to track the state of the blinds properly. That shouldn't be a huge issue for automation in this case as there will be dedicated relays for up and down.

A somewhat bigger concern is that there's the possibility of both the switch AND the system sending voltage to the blind. If in that case one sends up and the other sends down.....well that would be a short, a possible fire hazard and more.

 

I strongly suggest you plan to blank the switch, and/or get an alternative to replace them with that runs through the system.

 

Also....CAN a shelly plus 2 handle this? I though that was a dual relay with a shared neutral - that won't work in this case as you need to reverse polarity.

The simultaneous-use short risk is a good point with the parallel approach, as you're right in that it wouldn't be a true DPDT. (Why I'm only a nights/weekends hacker, ha.)

I just pulled up the Shelly schematics and realized there's another issue -- unsure the 2.5 can do the bi-directional/DPDT mode when DC powered. Not sure who makes (native) bidirectional DC relays for C4, unfortunatly.

Two independent Shelly Plus 1s could do the parallel approach, but as you said, it's imperfect/carries risk. Fuses/breakers could cover the risk/edge case, but would be a bit janky.

[DLite]

2 hours ago, booch said:

The simultaneous-use short risk is a good point with the parallel approach, as you're right in that it wouldn't be a true DPDT. (Why I'm only a nights/weekends hacker, ha.)

I just pulled up the Shelly schematics and realized there's another issue -- unsure the 2.5 can do the bi-directional/DPDT mode when DC powered. Not sure who makes (native) bidirectional DC relays for C4, unfortunatly.

Two independent Shelly Plus 1s could do the parallel approach, but as you said, it's imperfect/carries risk. Fuses/breakers could cover the risk/edge case, but would be a bit janky.

I am not averse to replacing the motors. Is there an option that would integrate more easily?

[booch]

Someone on the forum here may be aware of a bi-directional/DPDT-capable switch that integrates well with C4, which I think would be your best option.

If it were my house (and I didn't have full C4 lighting for switches), I'd use one of these to integrate with the existing switch (sensors) and control the power flow (relays), but that requires custom programming. (I use these boards for other stuff and they work great if you're willing to put in the effort, btw.)

I'm just speculating, but I'd think replacing the motors would be a pain, as the whole setup is probably proprietary and has to gear into a jackscrew, fit into an existing space, etc. But I could be way off there. The nice thing about newer motors is they're generally controled by data or contacts vs. voltage reversal.

[Cyknight]

Somfy and Motion do offer numerous motor options and adapters but I couldn't begin to say if it would be a feasible option for your blinds.

As for the reverse polarity, the right way of doing that with relays isn't super hard, but you need two dual throw relays - ie two relays with a common and both an NO and NC.

 

Basic wiring schematic for that is + to NO and - to NC on the relays, then com actually goes to the motor. This is safe in that at worst you're connecting both + or both - and on DC that means no voltage is applied to the motor.

This is simple to do with a standard C4 controller relay, but a lot more difficult with most small format wireless relays: I couldn't honestly tell you I know of one that you could but behind a switch.

 

For the blind control, what confuses me a bit is WHERE the DC adapter is - is that installed at the blind itself, with 110v at the blind? How much 'room' is up there?

I think it sound like this though:

You have 110v at the blind. The DC supply is mounted at said blind, then a wire is run back and forth from the DC unit to the switch location then back up to the blind.

If so, and there's room to hid say a surface mount single gang or perhaps double gang electrical box, you could possible install a single DPDT relay, a shelly 2 or similar and use the two shelly outputs to control the the external DPDT (it'll take a wiring diagram to explain the how of it).

 

From there - it may be possible to ADD a dual sensor input device (unsure what say a shelly has, but C4 has their own option and there are others as well). That sensor device could then be used to sense when the existing switch's buttons are pressed, in turn telling C4 to control the actual blind again.

 

 

This ends up being a LOT of tinkering however. Nothing against that as such, but you'll have to judge for yourself if that still seems worth it.

[DLite]

9 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Somfy and Motion do offer numerous motor options and adapters but I couldn't begin to say if it would be a feasible option for your blinds.

As for the reverse polarity, the right way of doing that with relays isn't super hard, but you need two dual throw relays - ie two relays with a common and both an NO and NC.

 

Basic wiring schematic for that is + to NO and - to NC on the relays, then com actually goes to the motor. This is safe in that at worst you're connecting both + or both - and on DC that means no voltage is applied to the motor.

This is simple to do with a standard C4 controller relay, but a lot more difficult with most small format wireless relays: I couldn't honestly tell you I know of one that you could but behind a switch.

 

For the blind control, what confuses me a bit is WHERE the DC adapter is - is that installed at the blind itself, with 110v at the blind? How much 'room' is up there?

I think it sound like this though:

You have 110v at the blind. The DC supply is mounted at said blind, then a wire is run back and forth from the DC unit to the switch location then back up to the blind.

If so, and there's room to hid say a surface mount single gang or perhaps double gang electrical box, you could possible install a single DPDT relay, a shelly 2 or similar and use the two shelly outputs to control the the external DPDT (it'll take a wiring diagram to explain the how of it).

 

From there - it may be possible to ADD a dual sensor input device (unsure what say a shelly has, but C4 has their own option and there are others as well). That sensor device could then be used to sense when the existing switch's buttons are pressed, in turn telling C4 to control the actual blind again.

 

 

This ends up being a LOT of tinkering however. Nothing against that as such, but you'll have to judge for yourself if that still seems worth it.

Thanks, @Cyknight. Just to be clear, this is for windows, not blinds.  The two windows in question are awning windows that are hinged at the top and opens out from the bottom.  Each window has a DC motor installed, with wiring running about 15 feet from that motor to the window itself and wiring running about 5 feet from the motor to a wall switch.  
 

If I am understanding you correctly, we would need input sensors so that manual switch activation results in C4 controlling the window. And, effectively, the actual control of the window would be exclusively through C4.

Am I right though that all these issues go away if I get rid of the manual switch and maybe replace it with a C4 keypad that is bound to the Shelly relay? Or are there additional complexities still to navigate?