Can C4 leverage camera face detection signals?

[DLite]

We are getting some quotes for surveillance camera systems.  A couple of the vendors are proposing cameras with face detection -- one proposed ICRealtime cameras with this feature and another proposed Luma cameras with it.  Is it feasible to program against face detection triggers in Control4?  I could imagine it being used in various ways for both familiar faces and unfamiliar faces, but I was kind of skeptical that the face detection signals would actually be exposed in Control4.    

Thanks!

[DanITman]

Almost all camera systems are going to have the same functionality inside Control4.  Control4 proxies only support limited functionality.  You will not be able to view / scrub a timeline of the NVR.  You will only be able to view live camera view and have PTZ functionality.  Some camera drivers do support triggering on smart detection if both the camera and the driver support it. 

I would focus more on which system you like better outside of Control4.  I've found that Unifi protect offers the best experience without having to pay annual fees. It also integrates very well with Control4.  The driver is not free but is worth it. 

I would have you stay away from Luma.  The mobile experience is not very friendly and the cost is on the high end. 

[DLite]

10 minutes ago, DanITman said:

Almost all camera systems are going to have the same functionality inside Control4.  Control4 proxies only support limited functionality.  You will not be able to view / scrub a timeline of the NVR.  You will only be able to view live camera view and have PTZ functionality.  Some camera drivers do support triggering on smart detection if both the camera and the driver support it. 

I would focus more on which system you like better outside of Control4.  I've found that Unifi protect offers the best experience without having to pay annual fees. It also integrates very well with Control4.  The driver is not free but is worth it. 

I would have you stay away from Luma.  The mobile experience is not very friendly and the cost is on the high end. 

Thanks. That is very helpful. In fact, the pitch I was getting on Luma was the claim of tighter C4 integration. It is useful to know that is not a key criterion.

 

[eggzlot]

4 minutes ago, DLite said:

Thanks. That is very helpful. In fact, the pitch I was getting on Luma was the claim of tighter C4 integration. It is useful to know that is not a key criterion.

 

Blue Iris as an NVR has face detection and a driver (free and paid versions) for control4

can ask the developer of the paid one how facial recognition could trigger events in c4

https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5348246/CodeProject-AI-Server-Blue-Iris-and-Face-Recogniti

 https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/blue-iris-vms-camera-driver-motion-touch-trigger-geofence-osd/

[DLite]

1 minute ago, eggzlot said:

Blue Iris as an NVR has face detection and a driver (free and paid versions) for control4

can ask the developer of the paid one how facial recognition could trigger events in c4

https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5348246/CodeProject-AI-Server-Blue-Iris-and-Face-Recogniti

 https://drivercentral.io/platforms/control4-drivers/blue-iris-vms-camera-driver-motion-touch-trigger-geofence-osd/

Very interesting, thanks!
 

If I recall correctly, Blue Iris needs to be run on an always-on PC — is that right, or are there alternatives using Synology NAS or other hardware?

 

[Andrew luecke]

You can also look at the AI based CCTV Cameras like Dahua or Hikvision cameras/NVR. These can fire events based on Face detection, Licence Plates, etc (if you use Chowmain driver, I can't speak on behalf of other developers). Alternatively, if you want something a bit higher end, you could also look at a brand like Axis. 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, DLite said:

Very interesting, thanks!
 

If I recall correctly, Blue Iris needs to be run on an always-on PC — is that right, or are there alternatives using Synology NAS or other hardware?

 

In theory maybe running windows virtual on synology but it’s easier to get a refurbed business PC

 

https://ipcamtalk.com/wiki/choosing-hardware-for-blue-iris/

[cnicholson]

I leverage "AI tagging" signals from my NVR using a kludgy workaround that would, in principle, work for face tagging if my NVR ever supports it.  I use SecuritySpy (an old, but very well maintained, Mac-based system).  A fast Apple Silicon Mac can easily handle 32 4K streams and does realtime human/animal/vehicle tagging.   It can fire off events based on object type, and actions including triggering HomeKit/Siri actions.   

One of things I use this for is to open my front gate when a vehicle is detected coming down my (very long) driveway so the gate is opening by the time you get to gate.   Humans and animals trigger motion record, but not this action.  How I do it is by installing a C4 "Demo" switch driver (call it "Vehicle on Driveway").  I "publish" (and 2-way sync) this device to HomeKit ecosystem via DTI Siri driver (on C4 Side).   On Apple/Homekit side, NVR flips that switch "on" upon vehicle detection.  On C4 side, when the "switch" goes "on," I trigger the "open" relay on DS2.  Works great.  I'm sure you could do a similar thing on a Windows or Linux based system using a URL driver on C4 side.

I'm assuming that, with face detection, you could do the same thing for a finite and static set of "known faces."   Instead of just human/vehicle/animal signals, you'd add "known person 1," "known person 2," etc.   You'd just have to statically "map" this with you C4 Programming.  So seems very doable if you're willing to do some brittle programming.

Obviously, it would be much cleaner with a C4 driver that natively supports these NVR signals.

[Cyknight]

Face detection on numerous cameras is in fact available in C4 as a trigger in the camera driver - though it may require putting the cams on a network switch (vs the back of an NVR).

These triggers can then be used to trigger whatever your C4 system has available.

Clare, Luma, Uniview and Hikvision are four I know have cams (and drivers) that allow this - I'm sure others do as well.

This doesn't change anything on the limitation of C4 not being able to view recordings at this time: but you CAN use camera face detection as a trigger.

[DLite]

51 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Face detection on numerous cameras is in fact available in C4 as a trigger in the camera driver - though it may require putting the cams on a network switch (vs the back of an NVR).

These triggers can then be used to trigger whatever your C4 system has available.

Clare, Luma, Uniview and Hikvision are four I know have cams (and drivers) that allow this - I'm sure others do as well.

This doesn't change anything on the limitation of C4 not being able to view recordings at this time: but you CAN use camera face detection as a trigger.

Cool!  So, just to be clear, these particular examples are all brand-specific drivers, or is there a single generic driver that does this?

[Cyknight]

16 minutes ago, DLite said:

Cool!  So, just to be clear, these particular examples are all brand-specific drivers, or is there a single generic driver that does this?

The ones I mentioned have drivers for them, specific to the brand es. All four have free drivers that do this, though in the case oh HIK and Uniview, Chowmain on drivercentral has more advanced drivers available as well.

 

Again, there may be many more option like ICreal, maybe Dahua and others: I just don't use those brands so don't know the details. My point was first and foremost that face recognition (and human body detection, licenseplate detection, vehicle detection) etc CAN be integrated into C4 as event triggers to do ..well whatever your system is capable of. From alert messages to lights turning on to locks locking...to starting that romantic music playlist...

[Cyknight]

Also note that the quality of the detection and trigger will primarily depend on the camera (and somewhat the driver): C4 just gets a 'trigger' from the driver that {blacklisted face was detected/taggd license plate was detected/human body was detected/etc}. Details on triggers per individual face etc will all purely depend on the camera and the driver.

 

Also, cameras aren't always AS good as a full NVR (which is still a more powerful computer) can be - just something to be aware of.

[DLite]

20 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

You can also look at the AI based CCTV Cameras like Dahua or Hikvision cameras/NVR. These can fire events based on Face detection, Licence Plates, etc (if you use Chowmain driver, I can't speak on behalf of other developers). Alternatively, if you want something a bit higher end, you could also look at a brand like Axis. 

Does the Chowmain DW Spectrum driver support face detection, by any chance? My security company is proposing DW cameras....

[Andrew luecke]

3 hours ago, DLite said:

Does the Chowmain DW Spectrum driver support face detection, by any chance? My security company is proposing DW cameras....

G'day, I'll check with Justin (the original developer) and let you know 

[DanITman]

Right now I use Hikvision Accusense camera to detect cars in my driveway.  I'm able to trigger based on a car driving into my driveway (Line-cross, one way) and have it trigger a notification in C4 with a snapshot image.   I'm waiting for Unifi protect to release one way line cross before I switch that camera.

 

 

[Andrew luecke]

5 hours ago, DLite said:

Does the Chowmain DW Spectrum driver support face detection, by any chance? My security company is proposing DW cameras....

G'day, 

I just spoke to Justin. Our driver works with the Rules engine on the DW Spectrum cameras. If the camera and DW Spectrum work together and you can get an event from the Rules Engine, then our driver will receive that event for programming.

It could be worthwhile contacting Digital Watchdog support and asking them how their face detection operates with the equipment you're purchasing. 

[DLite]

Just now, Andrew luecke said:

G'day, 

I just spoke to Justin. Our driver works with the Rules engine on the DW Spectrum cameras. If the camera and DW Spectrum work together and you can get an event from the Rules Engine, then our driver will receive that event for programming.

It could be worthwhile contacting Digital Watchdog support and asking them how their face detection operates with the equipment you're purchasing. 

Ah, I see.  Thanks -- that is very helpful.