2017 Thoughts for Control4

[RyanE]

1 minute ago, jfh said:

... locking down Pro to a list of particular controller MAC addresses (to provide customers access to their own systems but no others) doesn't (or shouldn't) require extensive changes.   If C4 wants to limit access in this way, I'm sure a solution could be found quickly.  

My solution doesn't require any change other than setting up a new dealer entry in the system.  No coding changes required.  Obviously there's an additional admin cost to manage the "employees" of this new "dealer", but presumably one that would be covered with the new license revenue.

I respectfully disagree.

RyanE

[jfh]

20 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

you are talking about things of which you have no knowledge - go back to the original argument.

Then my install dealer does understand it eirher, because that's how he explained it to me.  

I was a software engineer and architect for almost 30 years - even if I don't know the details, I know enough to know it's not that hard to do.  If C4 wanted to address the issue, they could.  They don't.

 

I have the ability to hack Pro and probably get it to do most of what I want.  I  have chosen not to - I dont believe that is the answer.  A DIY can already do some things limited to Pro without hacking,  though it requires Linux knowledge and XML manipulation which isn't for the faint of heart.   I was excited when I could rename devices or update some existing drivers. But very disappointed I had to figure out how.  

Things are changing - with driver auto updates there's no need to DIY.   Giving systems the ability to handle auto updates hasn't apparently harmed the dealers, but I suspect it has resulted in happier customers (and probably happier dealers).   But more needs to be done.

[jfh]

13 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I respectfully disagree.

RyanE

 

I would love to understand why.  Feel free to PM me if not appropriate for public discussion.  I'm always open to education.

 

[msgreenf]

38 minutes ago, jfh said:

My solution doesn't require any change other than setting up a new dealer entry in the system.  No coding changes required.

wrong

[thegreatheed]

And higher-tier dealerships have to maintain some level 2 certified technicians (requires online training and testing). I don't remember exactly which tier, preferred or silver of gold etc., requires that.

[msgreenf]

27 minutes ago, jfh said:

XML manipulation which isn't for the faint of heart

great way to quickly corrupt your project!

[Hisma]

My 2 cents here, as a "prosumer" that was previously looking into Control4.  I initially gravitated to c4 bc of how it is a professional home automation system that supports a wide range of devices, and goes as far as to include A/V automation.  But the more I dug into it, the more I disliked how difficult it was to do things the way I truly want... I COULD conceivably find a dealer that would let me do most of the work myself, but it was basically required to be done "under the table".  On top of that, the cost of the top of the line controllers, paying for drivers, etc etc didn't make me all that excited to jump in the game.

Then, by chance on another forum, I expressed my desire to reluctantly go with c4, and a rep from a competing product reached out to me to pitch their solution.  To me, it is much better, as it does not rely on dealers... you deal directly with the vendor.  He went on to talk about how he has replaced several c4 systems with his system.  So I prodded him on the capabilities of the system, and it really can do everything I need it to do.  On top of that, it is a server-based solution that simply requires a windows PC.  Apparently the CPU in the c4 controller is several orders of magnitude weaker than a pure intel server-based solution.  And the icing on the cake is that they are perfectly okay with letting the end user install the system themselves, if they so choose.

The one thing that c4 has over most of the competition, is that it has been around so long and has a lot of 3rd party driver support.  The competitor I am dealing with says that if a device is not supported, they can develop the driver themselves (instead of relying on 3rd party devs).  That's the only thing that worries me about a smaller player, but I'm willing to give them a shot.  Especially since they actively seeked me out for my business, I think they will do what they can to accommodate me.

I too think the c4 model isn't sustainable long-term.  The competition is making headway at a rapid pace, and forcing end users to deal with dealers, instead of by choice, turns people like me, and many others that have posted here, off.  

 

[msgreenf]

3 minutes ago, Hisma said:

My 2 cents here, as a "prosumer" that was previously looking into Control4.  I initially gravitated to c4 bc of how it is a professional home automation system that supports a wide range of devices, and goes as far as to include A/V automation.  But the more I dug into it, the more I disliked how difficult it was to do things the way I truly want... I COULD conceivably find a dealer that would let me do most of the work myself, but it was basically required to be done "under the table".  On top of that, the cost of the top of the line controllers, paying for drivers, etc etc didn't make me all that excited to jump in the game.

Then, by chance on another forum, I expressed my desire to reluctantly go with c4, and a rep from a competing product reached out to me to pitch their solution.  To me, it is much better, as it does not rely on dealers... you deal directly with the vendor.  He went on to talk about how he has replaced several c4 systems with his system.  So I prodded him on the capabilities of the system, and it really can do everything I need it to do.  On top of that, it is a server-based solution that simply requires a windows PC.  Apparently the CPU in the c4 controller is several orders of magnitude weaker than a pure intel server-based solution.  And the icing on the cake is that they are perfectly okay with letting the end user install the system themselves, if they so choose.

The one thing that c4 has over most of the competition, is that it has been around so long and has a lot of 3rd party driver support.  The competitor I am dealing with says that if a device is not supported, they can develop the driver themselves (instead of relying on 3rd party devs).  That's the only thing that worries me about a smaller player, but I'm willing to give them a shot.  Especially since they actively seeked me out for my business, I think they will do what they can to accommodate me.

I too think the c4 model isn't sustainable long-term.  The competition is making headway at a rapid pace, and forcing end users to deal with dealers, instead of by choice, turns people like me, and many others that have posted here, off.  

 

then what are you doing on a control4 forum?

[Hisma]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

then what are you doing on a control4 forum?

It still shows up on my tapatalk feed. I haven't been here in a few weeks actually.  Giving my honest opinion, as a potential c4 customer that allllmoossst took the plunge.  I chose not to mention the competitor, as it's not fair.  But we all know that competition is out there.  I hope c4 eventually decides to fully address the prosumer market.  

[eddy.trochez]

Deleted

[msgreenf]

6 minutes ago, eddy.trochez said:

So, from almost buying a tried-and-true Home Automation system, you decided to buy an Unicorn from a stranger. You know your post doesn't sound very "prosumer", right?

not to mention not naming what you bought...

[jfh]

40 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

great way to quickly corrupt your project!

I don't recommend direct editing of XML, but others here (including RyanE) have acknowledged its possible.  I spent days doing comparisons and ensuring what had to be changed, making sure no unintended characters were inserted, what the relationships are, etc..  I didn't just Willy Nilly edit/find/replace.   Now I have code to do it.    

The point was that I have to options to do something trivial - pay a dealer to do it or change the XML.  I think it's reasonable to have a third option.

[therockhr]

3 minutes ago, eddy.trochez said:

So, from almost buying a tried-and-true Home Automation system, you decided to buy an Unicorn from a stranger. You know your post doesn't sound very "prosumer", right?

Why the snark? He gave his story on why he didnt choose C4. Directly related to this thread topic.

[SMHarman]

I don't recommend direct editing of XML, but others here (including RyanE) have acknowledged its possible.  I spent days doing comparisons and ensuring what had to be changed, making sure no unintended characters were inserted, what the relationships are, etc..  I didn't just Willy Nilly edit/find/replace.   Now I have code to do it.    

The point was that I have to options to do something trivial - pay a dealer to do it or change the XML.  I think it's reasonable to have a third option.

So you've written a form of composer

[thegreatheed]

39 minutes ago, Hisma said:

 On top of that, it is a server-based solution that simply requires a windows PC.  Apparently the CPU in the c4 controller is several orders of magnitude weaker than a pure intel server-based solution.  And the icing on the cake is that they are perfectly okay with letting the end user install the system themselves, if they so choose.

 

 

2

This a completely useless comparison. Windows requires a ton of useless overhead for an automation system.

C4's custom linux distribution doesn't require tons of useless overhead, thus a processor (order of magnitude) weaker (I doubt this math), can probably do the job BETTER.

This approach has been tried before and has failed. Go look up Lifeware.

[AdamT]

2 hours ago, DIEHARD said:

But that was your risk and choice to use the person you did... not the person who made the tub. Besides for them you now still have to use the "dealer" to fix the issue. They lost nothing.

Your one bad choice vs the hundreds of good ones that could come from a more open system doesn't feel valid as an example but is still a great example as it shows you had the ability and made your own choice! Even if it was the wrong one.

Your right, I didn't choose to use who made the tub. Just like your complaining out Control4 not selling you goods that THEY do not put in. They are the manufacturer. Basically your asking Control4 to put these devices into the hands of people who have little to know knowledge of how it works. That is going to cause more broken system, more people talking bad about the product because it doesn't do what they THINK it should do vs what it was DESIGNED to do. 

 

Do you want to know why giving Pro to people isnt a good idea....just look at some of the post from DIY's here. They are asking for the most basic of function and cannot figure it out. Now pile that onto all the people that will then call dealers and say "well I was messing around in Pro, can you fix this quick" and since Pro is then "licenses" the dealer says "since you messed it up, itll be $250 for the 15 minute repair......Ill bet you complain more then.......

[jfh]

Some background on why I even bothered to look at changing the XML.

 

Before I found dealers here that would do remote support, I was obviously totally defendant on my original installer.

After our initial install, we (mostly me) wanted to add some additional zones, which would required ceiling speakers, an additional amp and a replacement audio switch which would have come from my dealer (especially since I am not physically capable of doing it myself).   A couple days later, my wife wanted some switches to be called something different.

"I can't do that.  I have to call <dealer>"

"Are you kidding me?  How long will that take?"

"He can get to me in 10 days or so".

That one instance has made getting agreement on any new equipment/expansion an arduous process.  That so soured my wife on C4 that I'm constantly hearing "I can't believe we spent so much money on this stuff and you can't do something that basic".  The original excitement she had for C4 is gone.  

My dealer would have had that equipment / install sale a year or two ago.  It still hasn't happened.  She is more inclined to just live with what we have rather than try to have more (Alexa and voice control the notable exception).   She quashed my plans to replace the projector with a 4K one.  I'm going to migrate to an EA5, but can only do that because she won't "see" it.   In her eyes, the C4 system is now pretty much a burden and an albatross (which of course is my fault).  I still want to add more zones, but that's going to be a hard sell, as is anything new.

To us married guys, WAF is critical.  As stupid as it sounds, a local C4 dealer has lost out on an installation upgrade, at least one 4K system and probably more because I couldn't rename a lamp in a few minutes.  Although I can now rename stuff when needed, that hasn't helped her image of C4.

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, thegreatheed said:

And higher-tier dealerships have to maintain some level 2 certified technicians (requires online training and testing). I don't remember exactly which tier, preferred or silver of gold etc., requires that.

Anything above authorized, not to mention needing more than one and so on....plus approval from several different sections within C4.....People seem to think it's all about the numbers a dealer sells, but it's not as simple as that.

[therockhr]

22 minutes ago, adamt said:

Do you want to know why giving Pro to people isnt a good idea....just look at some of the post from DIY's here. They are asking for the most basic of function and cannot figure it out. Now pile that onto all the people that will then call dealers and say "well I was messing around in Pro, can you fix this quick" and since Pro is then "licenses" the dealer says "since you messed it up, itll be $250 for the 15 minute repair......Ill bet you complain more then.......

People on here have brought this up and I have always found it strange; if the repair takes 15 minutes, why would a dealer charge any different than their normal rate just because the user messed something up? For spite? It's not like running wire or digging a ditch where physicality is the main factor of the cost and not time.

[jfh]

30 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

So you've written a form of composer

 

 No, I have some code and a process that lets me work around Composer to do some very speciific and limited things. And the code just protects me from forgetting something.

I looked at writing my own "Composer" to allow GUI access to do some of the other stuff that could be done with XML manipulation, but it was going to be way more work than I wanted to bother with.  Adding new devices or bindings is a lot more work.  And could break on a release change.  Besides, it still wouldn't have allowed access to the driver database.   There are a lot of reasons not to go the direction I did.

 

But now, when my wife wants to call something xyz instead of abc, it's done in a matter of minutes and she's happy ...

 

[AdamT]

7 minutes ago, therockhr said:

People on here have brought this up and I have always found it strange; if the repair takes 15 minutes, why would a dealer charge any different than their normal rate just because the user messed something up? For spite? It's not like running wire or digging a ditch where physicality is the main factor of the cost and not time.

Because once a dealer or installer has done their job, and the system works it should be done! If you tinker with it, via programming or wiring or moving stuff you SHOULD get charged more. I dont know anything about cars but after it leaves the shop I dont go under the hood and start moving wires or adding turbos to it. Thats not for me. See most of us that troubleshoot for a living know why your shouldnt touch it, but you still do. 

[therockhr]

6 minutes ago, adamt said:

Because once a dealer or installer has done their job, and the system works it should be done! If you tinker with it, via programming or wiring or moving stuff you SHOULD get charged more. I dont know anything about cars but after it leaves the shop I dont go under the hood and start moving wires or adding turbos to it. Thats not for me. See most of us that troubleshoot for a living know why your shouldnt touch it, but you still do. 

Please tell me more about how troubleshooting works!

 

[Thatguy230]

4 hours ago, msgreenf said:

 

[Thatguy230]

3 hours ago, DIEHARD said:

Yes but what got me in bed with C4 was the fact a C4 package came with my house and looked to do it all and could have if i could afford to have someone on call to add and change things as i needed.

At this point if it had not already been included I would have gone a different way for the smart home features as well.

I just got super excited and jumped the gun on C4 without knowing the limits it would put me under.

So you didn't do your homework and that's Control4's fault? Please explain 

[Thatguy230]

3 hours ago, adamt said:

Yes I know exactly how they feel. One time I had a guy I "did some work with" come over to help me with my bathroom remodel. Even though he didnt work for a bathroom company he said he could do it. After the first shower I found out why. Had a leak behind the drywall at the shower head and the cold water mixer. Thats not the best part. Instead of getting the right parts he had "rigged" the drain and cut more then 70% of the two joists under the tub. The drywall in the garage fell onto the car as did all the water. Had to cut out the drywall ceiling of the basement and sister in two new joists. But boy am I glad I had just anyone that said they could do it come over. Only costs me more than my whole C4 system to fix that little screw up, and I have quite the extensive system...........

Should've called your homeowners insurance.