2017 Thoughts for Control4

[therockhr]

10 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

No it doesn’t bother me at all.  How would homekit handle pool control?  Heated outdoor patio?  Heated indoor floors? Centralized tv?  Whole home audio?   Or my typical example of when my housekeeper comes over.  She enters 1 code on a door keypad. I get a text she arrived.   Door unlocks.  Alarm goes off.  Music turns on in all rooms to her favorite channel.  Lights turn on.  When she leaves she presses 1 button, lock on the door.  All doors lock. Alarm goes back on.  Music turns off.  Lights go off.  And I get a text she left.  And I get a text at 6pm to remind me to run the washing machine to clean the rags she left behind.   Or how about when my doorbell rings and I’m watching any TV in the house I get a live video feed via PiP.  Or how about when my alarm goes off my TV will turn on in the master bedroom is it’s between 9pm and 8am and put up a screen on the TV with all of my security cameras.

please outline those use cases with the 2 pages of light switches, door locks, bulbs and hvac tstats with homekit. 

Most of that is over automation, IMO, and not applicable to a lot of users. That's fine that you like and can do that and it's why I think Control4 and others will still have their niche but thats not what most people want. So I agree with you that Homekit or equivalent will not be able to handle those scenarios but I don't think they want to.

[mod220]

32 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

No it doesn’t bother me at all.  How would homekit handle pool control?  Heated outdoor patio?  Heated indoor floors? Centralized tv?  Whole home audio?   Or my typical example of when my housekeeper comes over.  She enters 1 code on a door keypad. I get a text she arrived.   Door unlocks.  Alarm goes off.  Music turns on in all rooms to her favorite channel.  Lights turn on.  When she leaves she presses 1 button, lock on the door.  All doors lock. Alarm goes back on.  Music turns off.  Lights go off.  And I get a text she left.  And I get a text at 6pm to remind me to run the washing machine to clean the rags she left behind.   Or how about when my doorbell rings and I’m watching any TV in the house I get a live video feed via PiP.  Or how about when my alarm goes off my TV will turn on in the master bedroom is it’s between 9pm and 8am and put up a screen on the TV with all of my security cameras.

please outline those use cases with the 2 pages of light switches, door locks, bulbs and hvac tstats with homekit. 

like I've said, C4 is still the superior product, and it better be when the automatons above required $3-5k in controllers, programming, etc.  when basic automation now is essentially free.  They know they are screwed which is why they launched the CA-1.  How can you deny this is backwards technology?  Its simply to compete with Homekit with a younger, tech savvy, cost conscious demographic they know will laugh at their model.   For years the core defense of C4 was "but its the only way to do AV control," and here in 2018 they launch a controller WITHOUT AV control, you don't find that alarming?

Regarding devices, If a device can connect to WIFI, eventually Apple, Google, etc. will control it.  You're holding onto C4 being the only option for the features above, and I'm saying, everyday that passes the list of things C4 does that the big boys don't is getting smaller.  You're living in the present, I'm planning for the future, and I guess we will see who is right over time.

My core issue is the cost of C4 today is equal/greater than it was 10 years ago, but the market has caught up.  80% of what we all want can be done by homekit, Google, Alexa, etc. with no service cost, no controller, no dealer fees, no BS all supported by some of the largest, most valuable/capitalized businesses the world has ever seen.  Its the other 20% you are focused on (and admittedly I am too, hence my time here), which everyday will go down.  If that continues to happen and C4 doesn't adjust, game over.  You do realize Ford only makes ONE automobile now, right?  The pioneers of the wide spread consumer  automobile, now only make ONE car.   That is disruption, that is new technology winning, and the more and more I research and learn, C4 looks a lot more like a Ford type situation unraveling right before our eyes.

Blackberry, Nokia, Kodak, Polaroid, Motorola all had their defenders, until the end.  My money is on the nearly $1T market cap players with unlimited resources, a far greater base of existing users, superior brand recognition, more consumer friendly model, and far lower pricing to boot.

[mod220]

24 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Most of that is over automation, IMO, and not applicable to a lot of users. That's fine that you like and can do that and it's why I think Control4 and others will still have their niche but thats not what most people want. So I agree with you that Homekit or equivalent will not be able to handle those scenarios but I don't think they want to.

 C4 used to be the only option designed for the masses to gain access to automation, now the defenders position it as the "luxury" option.  That market is just too niche for a $800M market cap company that completely missed the massive tech rally of the last five years.   I'd venture a fairly large number of C4 owners, really don't need all the bells and whistles.  They just want to press a button to kill the lights, lock the door and go to bed.  Homekit, etc. can now do that.  The majority of this board appears to be Dealers defending the flawed model, the consumers like I just described who really want basic automation without the hassle/cost of a questionable dealership network (many who have expressed regrets buying C4), and the minority seems to be C4 consumers who love the product and are seeking robust automation as eggzlot described.  If all C4 has are the eggzlots of the world, they are F'd.

[therockhr]

28 minutes ago, mod220 said:

like I've said, C4 is still the superior product, and it better be when the automatons above required $3-5k in controllers, programming, etc.  when basic automation now is essentially free.  They know they are screwed which is why they launched the CA-1.  How can you deny this is backwards technology?  Its simply to compete with Homekit with a younger, tech savvy, cost conscious demographic they know will laugh at their model.   For years the core defense of C4 was "but its the only way to do AV control," and here in 2018 they launch a controller WITHOUT AV control, you don't find that alarming?

Regarding devices, If a device can connect to WIFI, eventually Apple, Google, etc. will control it.  You're holding onto C4 being the only option for the features above, and I'm saying, everyday that passes the list of things C4 does that the big boys don't is getting smaller.  You're living in the present, I'm planning for the future, and I guess we will see who is right over time.

My core issue is the cost of C4 today is equal/greater than it was 10 years ago, but the market has caught up.  80% of what we all want can be done by homekit, Google, Alexa, etc. with no service cost, no controller, no dealer fees, no BS all supported by some of the largest, most valuable/capitalized businesses the world has ever seen.  Its the other 20% you are focused on (and admittedly I am too, hence my time here), which everyday will go down.  If that continues to happen and C4 doesn't adjust, game over.  You do realize Ford only makes ONE automobile now, right?  The pioneers of the wide spread consumer  automobile, now only make ONE car.   That is disruption, that is new technology winning, and the more and more I research and learn, C4 looks a lot more like a Ford type situation unraveling right before our eyes.

Blackberry, Nokia, Kodak, Polaroid, Motorola all had their defenders, until the end.  My money is on the nearly $1T market cap players with unlimited resources, a far greater base of existing users, superior brand recognition, more consumer friendly model, and far lower pricing to boot.

These are good reasons to not buy the stock but if you want something that works now it is unfortunately still Control4. I have to control things now. 

Im a Kodak defender by the way. It’s easy to say they didn’t “change to digital” but they were a chemical company, not a computer hardware company. They were in no position to make that move. 

[mod220]

5 minutes ago, therockhr said:

These are good reasons to not buy the stock but if you want something that works now it is unfortunately still Control4. I have to control things now. 

Im a Kodak defender by the way. It’s easy to say they didn’t “change to digital” but they were a chemical company, not a computer hardware company. They were in no position to make that move. 

Kodak invented the digital camera, of course they were in position to make that move!  The idea of being a chemical company didn't occur until the 1980s, they were a 100 year-old company then.  Here is a great article on Kodak, a bit dated, but mainly similarities to what I am saying today about C4:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2012/01/18/how-kodak-failed/#2ff632416f27

lack of innovation, poor preparation, failing to realize the changing technology, etc....The mistake Kodak made was fearing to cannibalize their film business, much like C4 is afraid to cannibalize their hardware business and dealership model even though both are incredibly outdated.

[therockhr]

18 minutes ago, mod220 said:

Kodak invented the digital camera, of course they were in position to make that move!  The idea of being a chemical company didn't occur until the 1980s, they were a 100 year-old company then.  Here is a great article on Kodak, a bit dated, but mainly similarities to what I am saying today about C4:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/chunkamui/2012/01/18/how-kodak-failed/#2ff632416f27

lack of innovation, poor preparation, failing to realize the changing technology, etc....The mistake Kodak made was fearing to cannibalize their film business, much like C4 is afraid to cannibalize their hardware business and dealership model even though both are incredibly outdated.

Right they invented the digital camera but guess what, there was no money in that business. Still isn’t. It’s a commodity. Kodak made money on all parts of the film process.

Kodak was a chemical company since its inception. They made a lot more than just film products. The article is wrong.  

It would be like Apple trying to be a pharmaceutical company. 

[mod220]

8 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Right they invented the digital camera but guess what, there was no money in that business. Still isn’t. It’s a commodity. Kodak made money on all parts of the film process. 

It would be like Apple trying to be a pharmaceutical company. 

They were in business 150 years and filed bankruptcy, clearly they could have made better choices.  They could have pushed digital photography, added ancillary products and services, many options to help them move away from their core business.  Just like Sony, they should have invented the iPOD, they made the Walkman, Discman, AVR, computer, TV and to top it off, something not even Apple has today, their own music catalog!  If they had just put all the pieces together, they could have crushed it.  so many great examples of businesses not looking ahead and being stuck in the past/present, always with all the excuses in the world, and then the music stops (pun intended).

[therockhr]

8 minutes ago, mod220 said:

They were in business 150 years and filed bankruptcy, clearly they could have made better choices.  They could have pushed digital photography, added ancillary products and services, many options to help them move away from their core business.  Just like Sony, they should have invented the iPOD, they made the Walkman, Discman, AVR, computer, TV and to top it off, something not even Apple has today, their own music catalog!  If they had just put all the pieces together, they could have crushed it.  so many great examples of businesses not looking ahead and being stuck in the past/present, always with all the excuses in the world, and then the music stops (pun intended).

It wasn’t that simple. Doing those things would have been like starting from scratch. They would have needed mechanical and electrical engineers instead of chemists and chemical engineers. 

https://www.smartindustry.com/blog/smart-industry-connect/in-defense-of-kodak/

[mod220]

4 minutes ago, therockhr said:

It wasn’t that simple. Doing those things would have been like starting from scratch. They would have needed mechanical and electrical engineers instead of chemists and chemical engineers. 

https://www.smartindustry.com/blog/smart-industry-connect/in-defense-of-kodak/

hey, 150 years is a a hell of a run, have to give them that.

[South Africa C4 user]

2 hours ago, therockhr said:

Most of that is over automation, IMO, and not applicable to a lot of users. That's fine that you like and can do that and it's why I think Control4 and others will still have their niche but thats not what most people want. So I agree with you that Homekit or equivalent will not be able to handle those scenarios but I don't think they want to.

I may be the exception but the sort of automation @eggzlot referred to is exactly why I love C4

[South Africa C4 user]

3 hours ago, mod220 said:

The short answer is the model is broken, C4 is great for dealers and that secret is no longer a secret.  Just a matter of time before C4 is toast, look at the stock price, look at the CEO dumping his stock, the dealers are in denial.   Do you need compatibility with 10,000 products?  No, people want simplicity, convenience, and value, none of which a dealership network provides.  Whats funny is anytime a consumer on here has an issue, the quick response is “you have a bad dealer,” then on the next thread people defend the dealer model.  What!  If I can add devices for free with Homekit, on top of not paying for a controller, all while avoiding “bad dealers,” no dealer will convince me the value is to my benefit.  If dealers are the root of the problem, and an added cost, what is the true value?  Waiting on and then paying a dealer to add a light switch?  Say that out loud and tell me without laughing that makes any sense at all?

Interesting that pretty much this exact same comment has appeared on 2 or 3 threads in the last 48 hours and it leads straight in to good old C4 bashing (CEO and directors dumping shares, dead business model etc.).  I smell a rat...

[mod220]

1 minute ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Interesting that pretty much this exact same comment has appeared on 2 or 3 threads in the last 48 hours and it leads straight in to good old C4 bashing (CEO and directors dumping shares, dead business model etc.).  I smell a rat...

The root of all my posts is in learning more about the technology, I've had a house wired for 3 years and am stalled on making the hardware purchase.  The more I learn about C4 the more alarmed I am by the dealer model, and the consumers that don't seem to know much about the company behind the scenes, which is why you are seeing redundancies like you describe.  It all comes back to my growing lack of confidence in the company, their  lack of vision, and a marketplace of dealers and consumers that appear to have their head in the sand with rapidly changing technology.   A public company with a stock that can't grow with its peer group, and a CEO with seemingly little expectations for that to change (hence the stock dump), further amplifies the other concerns I have raised.   Call me whatever you want, but unless you tell me I'm wrong and can justify your stance, I don't really care what you call me.

[mod220]

11 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

I may be the exception but the sort of automation @eggzlot referred to is exactly why I love C4

you are the unique consumer, perfect product for you, but doesn't make it right for me and more importantly, doesn't make the company viable.  The masses want lower cost, more simplicity, and are now used to working with household major brands (Apple, Google, Amazon) not random XYZ Audio Video installers that (based off the comments on this site) often are less than qualified to do the job they are being (highly) paid for.

[Gary Leeds UK]

Can not believe I have missed this one - Bloody Time Zones. 

mod220 is correct about the Directors dumping shares and over the last week they have sold a lot. 

C4 works for me and hopefully will carry on working for me, the real warning sign will come if Charlie Kindle leaves within the next 2 years. 

Employing him I think (Hope) was a very good choice and hope that C4 do listen to him

[thegreatheed]

It's the end of the trading window. So... sells shares at the end of a good trading window is... perfectly normal/expected/a complete non-story.

 

This wouldn't be the first time that someone is on these forums trying to manipulate public opinion/stock price/ or something of the sort. I caught one myself. After I called them out, *poof* they disappear.

[mod220]

Thanks for pointing out the Charlie Kindle hire, very positive for C4.  He is exactly what they need, someone who has shown progression and adaptability throughout their career

[mod220]

4 minutes ago, thegreatheed said:

It's the end of the trading window. So... sells shares at the end of a good trading window is... perfectly normal/expected/a complete non-story.

 

This wouldn't be the first time that someone is on these forums trying to manipulate public opinion/stock price/ or something of the sort. I caught one myself. After I called them out, *poof* they disappear.

I doubt anyone would come here to move the stock, my guess is very few people here own CTRL, they are almost all dealers and some customers, this ins't the Yahoo Finance board

[thegreatheed]

1 minute ago, mod220 said:

I doubt anyone would come here to move the stock, my guess is very few people here own CTRL, they are almost all dealers and some customers, this ins't the Yahoo Finance board

Doesn't change what happened.

[ajburnet]

On 1/2/2017 at 2:57 PM, therockhr said:

There is nothing magical about composer pro. if I had access to the same kb articles as the dealers I would never need training or have a need to call a dealer. Ever. Not being conceded as there are plenty of people like myself who could do the same.

I agree. We are in the era of open source and increasing technical 'savvy'. There is nothing stopping C4 catering to multiple customer groups and varying competencies. If you can become a certified Enterprise Google Cloud Architect online, you can certainly run training courses and certifications for CC Pro online. Besides, if you screw up, its your dealer who will charge you anyway. Reality is using and programming CC Pro is easier than learning to code, and 8 year olds are learning to code right...?

Given the amount of functionality being added to HE, I'm guessing C4 know this and are managing the balancing act of keeping their dealers happy and providing more control to end users in a user friendly way.

The majority of C4s customer base won't bother, which is fine, but I still think the C4 dealer base needs to more aggressively embrace empowering their customers, not holding onto the keys to their house and charging them $300 to add the TV that just cost them $500. Thats such old, outdated thinking in my opinion.

[jfh]

Nothing has been "added" to HE.  Pro is built and then certain functions are disabled to create HE.  That was pretty evident with the security certificate fiasco.  Stuff that's a no brainer to expose in HE (e.g. display all current programming) still hasn't been done even though C4 added the request to its developers over a year ago.

 

I've said it before, but will say it again - keeping Pro from non-dealers that are willing to take training and license the code only protects bad dealers and alienates a group of power users that could easily become goodwill ambassadors for Control4.

 

 

 

[eggzlot]

9 hours ago, mod220 said:

like I've said, C4 is still the superior product, and it better be when the automatons above required $3-5k in controllers, programming, etc.  when basic automation now is essentially free.  They know they are screwed which is why they launched the CA-1.  How can you deny this is backwards technology?  Its simply to compete with Homekit with a younger, tech savvy, cost conscious demographic they know will laugh at their model.   For years the core defense of C4 was "but its the only way to do AV control," and here in 2018 they launch a controller WITHOUT AV control, you don't find that alarming?

Regarding devices, If a device can connect to WIFI, eventually Apple, Google, etc. will control it.  You're holding onto C4 being the only option for the features above, and I'm saying, everyday that passes the list of things C4 does that the big boys don't is getting smaller.  You're living in the present, I'm planning for the future, and I guess we will see who is right over time.

My core issue is the cost of C4 today is equal/greater than it was 10 years ago, but the market has caught up.  80% of what we all want can be done by homekit, Google, Alexa, etc. with no service cost, no controller, no dealer fees, no BS all supported by some of the largest, most valuable/capitalized businesses the world has ever seen.  Its the other 20% you are focused on (and admittedly I am too, hence my time here), which everyday will go down.  If that continues to happen and C4 doesn't adjust, game over.  You do realize Ford only makes ONE automobile now, right?  The pioneers of the wide spread consumer  automobile, now only make ONE car.   That is disruption, that is new technology winning, and the more and more I research and learn, C4 looks a lot more like a Ford type situation unraveling right before our eyes.

Blackberry, Nokia, Kodak, Polaroid, Motorola all had their defenders, until the end.  My money is on the nearly $1T market cap players with unlimited resources, a far greater base of existing users, superior brand recognition, more consumer friendly model, and far lower pricing to boot.

You are trying to rationalize your purchasing decisions over an internet forum.  It is like going to a BBQ forum and asking what smoker to buy - you can go to home depot or buy something custom from a fab shop down in TX who makes each piece by hand.  The BBQ forum loves the fab guy in TX so everyone raves how his smokers are the best blah blah.  its called groupthink.  The $200 smoker at home depot can also smoke a piece of meat but maybe it is harder to maintain the temps, the grates are smaller, it will rust out quicker, etc but i can still work within your budget and parameters.  It is a free world - buy whatever fits your budget and use case.  You keep saying why go with C4 over homekit, I give you a few quick examples and then you backtrack and say well it better be able to do that at the price point.  That's the difference, it is more expensive, because it can do more.  I do not drive a Ferrari because my Hyundai gets me from point A to point B too.  They both go the speed limit of 65 MPH in my area, yet I am fairly sure they will provide a different ride, feeling, evoke a different emotion, etc.  Does not make Ferrari owners wrong or blind or stupid with their investment.

As I said before, HomeKit was announced in 2014.  Given its been 4 years, the amount of devices available is pathetic and most of the devices overlap each such as 3-4 kinds of light bulbs, 3-4 kinds of HVAC tstats, 2-3 door locks, etc.  If those limited devices work for you, yes you could say c4 is overkill.

Re: the CA-1, that was a cheap way to get new dealers, mostly electricians or alarm guys, to install their systems and still give the user some of the C4 experience.  Before an electrician may spec out Lutron, but now they could spec out C4 lighting + a CA1, the hope is the customer likes it, wants to control more, and comes back for an EA3 or an EA5.  

Re: stock price I am by far an expert, but the stock price is up about 50% in the last 52 months.  I am not sure comparing them to Google, Apple, etc is fair considering those companies have 100s if not 1000s of analysts following them and C4 likely has a handful at most.  Different player, different market, etc.  C4 is debt free, they bring over a top exec from Amazon, they purchase a speaker company, a networking company, a video distribution company, etc and they keep moving forward.  From the outside looking in, that all looks positive to me.

[therockhr]

6 hours ago, thegreatheed said:

It's the end of the trading window. So... sells shares at the end of a good trading window is... perfectly normal/expected/a complete non-story.

 

This wouldn't be the first time that someone is on these forums trying to manipulate public opinion/stock price/ or something of the sort. I caught one myself. After I called them out, *poof* they disappear.

Good job Nancy Drew!

[msgreenf]

3 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Good job Nancy Drew!

except they were banned - they didn't disappear on their own...

[terminaldisclaimer]

11 hours ago, eggzlot said:

No it doesn’t bother me at all.  How would homekit handle pool control?  Heated outdoor patio?  Heated indoor floors? Centralized tv?  Whole home audio?   Or my typical example of when my housekeeper comes over.  She enters 1 code on a door keypad. I get a text she arrived.   Door unlocks.  Alarm goes off.  Music turns on in all rooms to her favorite channel.  Lights turn on.  When she leaves she presses 1 button, lock on the door.  All doors lock. Alarm goes back on.  Music turns off.  Lights go off.  And I get a text she left.  And I get a text at 6pm to remind me to run the washing machine to clean the rags she left behind.   Or how about when my doorbell rings and I’m watching any TV in the house I get a live video feed via PiP.  Or how about when my alarm goes off my TV will turn on in the master bedroom is it’s between 9pm and 8am and put up a screen on the TV with all of my security cameras.

please outline those use cases with the 2 pages of light switches, door locks, bulbs and hvac tstats with homekit. 

I really wish we had more threads like this. Are you using JAP (or something equivalent) or is the PIP happening through the TV's interface?

[msgreenf]

https://www.cepro.com/article/control4_unapologetic_about_integrator_channel_dedication

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