msgreenf Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 ok, have you asked Savant to change their model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatheed Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, msgreenf said: ok, have you asked Savant to change their model? They're dabbling in DIY and it's not helping their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod220 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 13 minutes ago, Brownbatsbreath said: I’m not sure why they would be interested in my feedback...? How many cars should Control4 make? I’m not trying to address your points. I’m saying they’ve chosen to do business a certain way, and it works for them. Are they losing business from guys like you? Sure. They’ve decided... and proven.... their current business model is successful for them. It’s what you might call an ‘industry standard’ , as others in this industry do quite the same thing. I thought you were a dealer. All they have proven is their business model worked when they were first to market, and 100% of what we wanted had to go through C4. Now, 80% of that can be done by much larger, bigger, better known brands, more conveniently, for free. The value of C4 went from 100% to 20%, in five years. That's the reality they need to address. 9 minutes ago, eggzlot said: says you not the company sorry, you lose. I am the consumer with all the time and money I need to wait things out, they are the company about to fight for their survival, how did I lose? 9 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: You have to show why the business model is bad besides you don't like it. Connected devices are exploding, that <should> have spelled death for a dealer-only company. Except it didn't. Control4 has grown, increased loyalty, increased dealer buy-in, become one of the fastest growing public companies, and just hired a tech rock star executive. Having a dealer, an expert, is practically the entire reason why Control4 is beating all their competitors (as they all dabble in DIY--and fail). Charlie Kindle explains why a dealer IS the winning element. He's a smarter and better power user than ANY OF YOU. And yet he came around to realize the dealer model IS the best business model in this space.https://ceklog.kindel.com/2018/08/02/im-betting-on-control4/ Control4 has grown during the most robust economic market paired with a near record of new home constructions at a time of peak technological awareness. So top line numbers reflect the cycle far more than the business plan. The stock price, which hasn't moved in four years (even though the broader tech market has gone up 200%+ during the same time), is more reflective of the business plan and long term future for the company. You don't find it odd CTRL is valued today the same as 2014, when the average value of their peers doubled? I'm not a stock analyst, but if that doesn't smack you in the face, not sure what to tell you, about this "growing" company. Kindle is a huge win for sure, but lets be honest, what made Microsoft and Amazon successful, the consumer. Period. Both of those companies mushroomed because they were easy to use and enjoy directly by the consumer, if you don't think they are going to turn this model around you are crazy. 9 minutes ago, msgreenf said: Have you asked Crestron to change their business model too? My dealer only does C4 so its the only system I'm spending time researching. 8 minutes ago, eggzlot said: ford makes 1 car in the US because the US market wants SUVs and Trucks. If C4 thought the market wanted DIY they would go that route. They see other places there and are carving out their own path. Again - why doesn't Ferrari make a $30,000 car? You can buy a Lexus for $35,000 > $200,000+. So why can't you get a $30,000 Ferrari? I want a Ferrari, but I want to pay $30,000, so they should release one. LOL, the DIY market is outgrowing the C4 model by leaps and bounds, of course C4 sees that. Problem is, like Kodak not wanting digital cameras to steal from their film business, and Ford not dong an electric car because it would steal from their service business, C4 knows they are so priced out of the DIY market they would die. So they are currently doubling down on the dealer model, telling everyone things are great, no changes coming, dealers falling for it hook line and sinker, until they figure out the hybrid people like me are describing. One of two things has to happen, C4 fails, or the "dealer does everything" model goes away. My guess is C4 would rather put dealers out of business than themselves, but that's just my opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, mod220 said: I am the consumer with all the time and money I need to wait things out, they are the company about to fight for their survival, how did I lose? 24 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: but not getting technology that helps you improve your life today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, mod220 said: My dealer only does C4 so its the only system I'm spending time researching. 23 minutes ago, eggzlot said: but you said above you have all the time in the world. SO you are saying your only 2 options were Homekit or Control4? You didn't consider anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 23 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: You have to show why the business model is bad besides you don't like it. Connected devices are exploding, that <should> have spelled death for a dealer-only company. Except it didn't. Control4 has grown, increased loyalty, increased dealer buy-in, become one of the fastest growing public companies, and just hired a tech rock star executive. Having a dealer, an expert, is practically the entire reason why Control4 is beating all their competitors (as they all dabble in DIY--and fail). Charlie Kindle explains why a dealer IS the winning element. He's a smarter and better power user than ANY OF YOU. And yet he came around to realize the dealer model IS the best business model in this space.https://ceklog.kindel.com/2018/08/02/im-betting-on-control4/ He has also complained about dealers artificially inflating prices and restricting access to software. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatheed Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, mod220 said: Control4 has grown during the most robust economic market paired with a near record of new home constructions at a time of peak technological awareness. So top line numbers reflect the cycle far more than the business plan. The stock price, which hasn't moved in four years (even though the broader tech market has gone up 200%+ during the same time), is more reflective of the business plan and long term future for the company. You don't find it odd CTRL is valued today the same as 2014, when the average value of their peers doubled? I'm not a stock analyst, but if that doesn't smack you in the face, not sure what to tell you, about this "growing" company. You are cherry picking a particular moment in time to base your stock analysis off of. Acquisition rumors of a Google buyout (after acquiring nest) temporarily spiked the stock cost. Nice try, but fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod220 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, msgreenf said: but not getting technology that helps you improve your life today I've made it this far without automation, I can wait a few months before pissing away $5-10k on an antiquated system. 15 minutes ago, msgreenf said: but you said above you have all the time in the world. SO you are saying your only 2 options were Homekit or Control4? You didn't consider anything else? those are the two I selected from each category to start comparing, I certainly would not rule out any other platforms that made sense. Since I have all apple devices I started with Homekit on the DIY side, and since my friend/installer is C4 only, it made sense to start there on the dealer side. 12 minutes ago, therockhr said: He has also complained about dealers artificially inflating prices and restricting access to software. He is going to turn the dealer model upside down, you don't think the brightest engineers in the world, don't cringe when Billy Bob from XYZ audio is implementing their golden product and becoming the face to the end user? Why do you think Apple, Microsoft, Amazon and Google are client facing, they don't want a middle man to screw it up! 9 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: You are cherry picking a particular moment in time to base your stock analysis off of. Acquisition rumors of a Google buyout (after acquiring nest) temporarily spiked the stock cost. Nice try, but fail. even at $20 going to $32, is pathetic. The economy is roaring and the average tech company has gone up 200%+, and you think C4 being up 50% during that time, 75% less than the AVERAGE of the peer group, is impressive? Again, not an analyst here, but pick a category, sports, business, weight loss, anything. When your competition is up 200% and you are only up 50%, you are not bragging, ever. The 50% gain is not a reward for their innovative sustainable business model, its simply the draft of the sector being hot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, mod220 said: even at $20 going to $32, is pathetic. The economy is roaring and the average tech company has gone up 200%+, and you think C4 being up 50% during that time, 75% less than the AVERAGE of the peer group, is impressive? Again, not an analyst here, but pick a category, sports, business, weight loss, anything. When your competition is up 200% and you are up 50%, you are not bragging, ever. who is c4's competition? See you say its Apple/Homekit, so you'll compare their stock growth to apple. And thankfully that is why you are NOT a stock analyst. And if you are, let me know what publication so I can avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegreatheed Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, mod220 said: even at $20 going to $32, is pathetic. The economy is roaring and the average tech company has gone up 200%+, and you think C4 being up 50% during that time, 75% less than the AVERAGE of the peer group, is impressive? Again, not an analyst here, but pick a category, sports, business, weight loss, anything. When your competition is up 200% and you are only up 50%, you are not bragging, ever. The 50% gain is not a reward for their innovative sustainable business model, its simply the draft of the sector being hot. 3 Show me a competitor that is up over 200% over the same time frame. One. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 18 minutes ago, mod220 said: I thought you were a dealer. All they have proven is their business model worked when they were first to market, and 100% of what we wanted had to go through C4. Now, 80% of that can be done by much larger, bigger, better known brands, more conveniently, for free. The value of C4 went from 100% to 20%, in five years. That's the reality they need to address. I am the consumer with all the time and money I need to wait things out, they are the company about to fight for their survival, how did I lose? Control4 has grown during the most robust economic market paired with a near record of new home constructions at a time of peak technological awareness. So top line numbers reflect the cycle far more than the business plan. The stock price, which hasn't moved in four years (even though the broader tech market has gone up 200%+ during the same time), is more reflective of the business plan and long term future for the company. You don't find it odd CTRL is valued today the same as 2014, when the average value of their peers doubled? I'm not a stock analyst, but if that doesn't smack you in the face, not sure what to tell you, about this "growing" company. Kindle is a huge win for sure, but lets be honest, what made Microsoft and Amazon successful, the consumer. Period. Both of those companies mushroomed because they were easy to use and enjoy directly by the consumer, if you don't think they are going to turn this model around you are crazy. My dealer only does C4 so its the only system I'm spending time researching. LOL, the DIY market is outgrowing the C4 model by leaps and bounds, of course C4 sees that. Problem is, like Kodak not wanting digital cameras to steal from their film business, and Ford not dong an electric car because it would steal from their service business, C4 knows they are so priced out of the DIY market they would die. So they are currently doubling down on the dealer model, telling everyone things are great, no changes coming, dealers falling for it hook line and sinker, until they figure out the hybrid people like me are describing. One of two things has to happen, C4 fails, or the "dealer does everything" model goes away. My guess is C4 would rather put dealers out of business than themselves, but that's just my opinion... so how do you have a dealer, who only does c4, but you do not have c4 and you are kicking the tires? Why not kick tires on Savant, Elan, Crestron, etc? Why not bypass the dealer and go to CQC or Allonis? Why not get a hub at a big box store like Vera or SmartThings? Go back to AVSForum, the authors of CQC and Allonis are there, its 100% DIY and they can help you out. They may be missing a few bits of hardware but its still way better than Homekit and no dealer is required (yet you have a dealer, but you dont want a dealer - got it!!) Please tell me how you came up with your 80%/20% math split? Because I gave you 5-7 things yesterday with all of 2 seconds of thought that C4 can do that homekit cannot do. Your math and logic are flawed. You may be a consumer with time and money, but there is a cost to your time and money. The more you wait, the more you lose out on features/benefits offered now. Its the same concept as someone pointed out with a cell phone, I am not going to upgrade my iPhone because next year a new iPhone is coming out. But why update then, because in 12 months, another new one is coming out. If you sit back and chase technology you will always lose, period, end of story, because you lost the ability to enjoy the technology while you sat idle by and researched and over analyzed everything. C4 isnt cheap. It is not for everyone. Its a dealer model that has its limitations to some. No one is covering that up. To come here and continually rant about its demise is just a waste of your time and everyone's time. I love C4, it may be around in 2 years or 20 years, I do not know. But I've enjoyed it for the last 5 years, and I plan to enjoy it for another 5+ years. Years ago I had a squeezebox and loved it. Logitech moved on, so I moved onto Sonos. I was not crying, its technology. Things change and move. If you sit on the sidelines you'll miss it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod220 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, eggzlot said: who is c4's competition? See you say its Apple/Homekit, so you'll compare their stock growth to apple. And thankfully that is why you are NOT a stock analyst. And if you are, let me know what publication so I can avoid it. C4 is a niche company, there are no other publicly traded direct peers, they are all either private companies, or rolled under larger enterprises (Amazon, Comcast), etc. So I have compared them to the broad tech sector in general, NASDAQ 100. If you'd like to make anymore silly statements for me to blow up, I'm free for a few more hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod220 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, eggzlot said: so how do you have a dealer, who only does c4, but you do not have c4 and you are kicking the tires? Why not kick tires on Savant, Elan, Crestron, etc? Why not bypass the dealer and go to CQC or Allonis? Why not get a hub at a big box store like Vera or SmartThings? Go back to AVSForum, the authors of CQC and Allonis are there, its 100% DIY and they can help you out. They may be missing a few bits of hardware but its still way better than Homekit and no dealer is required (yet you have a dealer, but you dont want a dealer - got it!!) Please tell me how you came up with your 80%/20% math split? Because I gave you 5-7 things yesterday with all of 2 seconds of thought that C4 can do that homekit cannot do. Your math and logic are flawed. You may be a consumer with time and money, but there is a cost to your time and money. The more you wait, the more you lose out on features/benefits offered now. Its the same concept as someone pointed out with a cell phone, I am not going to upgrade my iPhone because next year a new iPhone is coming out. But why update then, because in 12 months, another new one is coming out. If you sit back and chase technology you will always lose, period, end of story, because you lost the ability to enjoy the technology while you sat idle by and researched and over analyzed everything. C4 isnt cheap. It is not for everyone. Its a dealer model that has its limitations to some. No one is covering that up. To come here and continually rant about its demise is just a waste of your time and everyone's time. I love C4, it may be around in 2 years or 20 years, I do not know. But I've enjoyed it for the last 5 years, and I plan to enjoy it for another 5+ years. Years ago I had a squeezebox and loved it. Logitech moved on, so I moved onto Sonos. I was not crying, its technology. Things change and move. If you sit on the sidelines you'll miss it all. 80/20 was clearly a estimation, what is home automation? Lights Camera AVR Thermostats Locks Alarm There is virtually no longer any product category C4 can connect to, that a company like Apple or Google can't. The only advantage C4 has is the advanced automation, we've covered this, ad nauseam. If C4 only survives because people want the lights and TV to turn on for their housecleaner, than I'm not sure I need to keep making my points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, mod220 said: C4 is a niche company, there are no other publicly traded direct peers, they are all either private companies, or rolled under larger enterprises (Amazon, Comcast), etc. So I have compared them to the broad tech sector in general, NASDAQ 100. If you'd like to make anymore silly statements for me to blow up, I'm free for a few more hours. how about Alarm.com as a competitor? https://www.alarm.com/productservices/home_automation.aspx you can use the NASDAQ 100. I am not an analyst, nor make any claims to be one. But to say all tech companies are up 200% and so should C4 clearly proves you should not be dishing out stock advice either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod220 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 7 minutes ago, thegreatheed said: Show me a competitor that is up over 200% over the same time frame. One. Here are three: Apple Google Amazon What? they are not pure play competitors? right, but look at adoption rates of Homekit, Google Home and Echo compared to the C4 numbers, not a comparison, and far beyond 4x the growth in expanding user bases. Simply put, C4 has not kept up with competition against the big boys, and they are just getting started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod220 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, eggzlot said: how about Alarm.com as a competitor? https://www.alarm.com/productservices/home_automation.aspx you can use the NASDAQ 100. I am not an analyst, nor make any claims to be one. But to say all tech companies are up 200% and so should C4 clearly proves you should not be dishing out stock advice either. um, ALRM is actually up 250% in just the last three years, you trying to make my argument for me, thanks! I never said "all tech" I said the "average" - very different. come on man, you're losing momentum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 9 minutes ago, mod220 said: If C4 only survives because people want the lights and TV to turn on for their housecleaner, than I'm not sure I need to keep making my points. if you dont need that level of automation, go elsewhere. if you do not need a $200,000 Ferrari you can buy a $50,000 mustang. when people hear what I spent on C4 I get some odd looks. When people come to my house and experience, a light bulb goes off (pun not intended). An automated house just works. i gave an example of a house cleaner, I gave an example of a door bell ringing, I gave an example of an alarm going off at night. I also mentioned heated stairs so in the winter I am not shoveling or deicing to get my dog out to use the bathroom first thing in the morning. I am talking about when my DSC alarm senses water I get a text and my water system shuts off using a Watercop. I am talking about varying up my camera recordings so by pressing just sensing the alarm state my cameras will record or not record based on my preferences. or pressing 1 button a fob in my car and getting my garage door to open, basement door to unlock, lights to turn on, alarm to turn off, etc. and none of that is cloud based. I can keep chipping away at your 80/20 theory. Again until you have it, until you use it and see it in action it is hard to get your hands around what you can do. Or in my case, what I do not have to do because C4 does it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, mod220 said: Here are three: Apple Google Amazon What? they are not pure play competitors? right, but look at adoption rates of Homekit, Google Home and Echo compared to the C4 numbers, not a comparison, and far beyond 4x the growth in expanding user bases. Simply put, C4 has not kept up with competition against the big boys, and they are just getting started. c4 is not competing against apple, google and amazon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, mod220 said: um, ALRM is actually up 250% in just the last three years, you trying to make my argument for me, thanks! I never said "all tech" I said the "average" - very different. come on man, you're losing momentum! alarm.com 52 week high/low is 33.39-57.92 c4 52 week high/low is 20.50-37.30 is that really much of a difference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SY3 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 4 minutes ago, mod220 said: 80/20 was clearly a estimation, what is home automation? Lights Camera AVR Thermostats Locks Alarm There is virtually no longer any product category C4 can connect to, that a company like Apple or Google can't. The only advantage C4 has is the advanced automation, we've covered this, ad nauseam. If C4 only survives because people want the lights and TV to turn on for their housecleaner, than I'm not sure I need to keep making my points. How can Apple or Google control my existing TV from 2009? Can they control my Xbox, PS4? What about my Roku? Please explain "There is virtually no longer any product category C4 can connect to, that a company like Apple or Google can't". Product category may be but not virtually any product. Clearly you don't want Control4 and want to come on a Control4 user forum to make arguments. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatguy230 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 This has been blowing up my email for 2 days now. We’re beating a dead horse here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, mod220 said: um, ALRM is actually up 250% in just the last three years, you trying to make my argument for me, thanks! I never said "all tech" I said the "average" - very different. come on man, you're losing momentum! 01/04/2016 - C4 closed at 7.24 8/30/2018 - c4 closed at 32.62 01/04/2016 - Alarm closed at 16.20 8/30/2018 - alarm closed at 55.48 I dunno, I am no expert in financial or high level math, but the growth seems fairly equal. In fact I think c4 grew a bit more?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 How come all the people who say they hate these threads are always commenting in them? i, for the record, love these threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thatguy230 Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 11 minutes ago, therockhr said: How come all the people who say they hate these threads are always commenting in them? i, for the record, love these threads. Because it’s blowing our emails and getting is the same result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 6 minutes ago, Thatguy230 said: Because it’s blowing our emails and getting is the same result. Then unfollow it. Problem solved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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