2017 Thoughts for Control4

[msgreenf]

How is homekit free? I have no iPhone or apple tv

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[msgreenf]

How can you call homekit free? You can call it included. But not free

Please understand that.

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[mod220]

9 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

How is homekit free? I have no iPhone or apple tv

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It’s free and available, you just can’t access it

if a restaurant in Florida gives drinks away for the next ten minutes, are they not free since I can’t access them?  Certainly the people sitting there right now would disagree, no?

seriously man, the absence of logic is so starling!  Pretty easy to dismantle all these “rebuttals”

are free downloads not free because munchies grandmother doesn’t own a computer?

[msgreenf]

I'm done with this thread. You make no sense. This argument makes no sense. Homekit is not free. But please keep thinking that. You have to have apple devices. Apple devices cost money.

Homekit is an included feature of ios.

How do I use homekit from android?

It’s free and available, you just can’t access it
if a restaurant in Florida gives drinks away for the next ten minutes, are they not free since I can’t access them?  Certainly the people sitting there right now would disagree, no?
seriously man, the absence of logic is so starling!  Pretty easy to dismantle all these “rebuttals”

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[eggzlot]

5 hours ago, mod220 said:

 

I said "primary go to brand for general residential" - consistent with your view of them as "moderate."  Without doing any research I'd have to believe C4 has far more general residential users than Savant, Creston, etc., correct?

No clue.  If they are it’s because they focused on this market.  Not spreading thin to go DIY.  

and my car comparisons stand.  And still waiting on your stock price comeback given alarm and c4 are the same and c4 has seen then 200% growth.  

Different brands go after different markets - this is called business strategy 101.  You cannot be everything to everyone.   Where is the $99 iPad?  FireTv makes tablets in that price point.  As do some android manufactures.  And I’m talking new.  Not used.  Not 4 year old inventory.  Apple doesn’t want to compete in that space.  They could but they do not.  C4 could make something DIY but they aren’t going after that market.   I am doing a kitchen remodel now and Wolf ovens are 2-3x the price of other brands-are they hurting by missing the low to middle market?   Is Kitchenaid or whirlpool or GE going to put wolf out of business?

Business can sell to other businesses, end users etc.  they can be upscale or target middle or lower end clients.  Business look at b2c vs b2b and low/middle/upper price points and find a mix that is their client.  C4s clients are dealers who focus on mid to upper class clients.  That’s their model.  

You are free to not like the model.   You are free to not buy into the model.

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, mod220 said:

Whether or not I have working systems has no bearing on whether I'm right or wrong.  As Milton Friedman once famously said when asked why anyone who was poor should take advice from a man like him who had never been poor, he replied  "If you had brain cancer, would you only seek treatment from doctors, who they themselves had brain cancer?"

In fact, I think the people here closest to C4 seem to have the hardest time seeing the big picture.  My unbiased, fresh, curious view should be refreshing given all the comments I've read around here.

Your opinions are not unbiased, they are VERY biased against the C4 model. They are not fresh - they get repeated time and time again over years. And they are not curious either, they are focused on causing discord.

[SMHarman]

I understand, my point was people here defending C4 are quick to point out the 10,000 options, even though the average consumer probably only buys 5-20 of them.  and those few dozen choices may still cover the heavy majority of the needs out there.   you can have a limited menu while still satisfying the majority of the consumers (i.e. In-N-Out Burger)

Until the Internet goes down, or apple plans obsolescence.

[msgreenf]

your description of homekit being free is like calling the fries and drink in a combo at in-n-out (since you brought them up) as free.  They aren't free.  They are included in the purchase of a combo.  Homekit is not free, it's included in the purchase of iOS devices.

Now calling it a sunk cost since you are already invested in an iOS ecosystem is fine but still not free.  

Can we at least agree on that?

[mod220]

1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

your description of homekit being free is like calling the fries and drink in a combo at in-n-out (since you brought them up) as free.  They aren't free.  They are included in the purchase of a combo.  Homekit is not free, it's included in the purchase of iOS devices.

Now calling it a sunk cost since you are already invested in an iOS ecosystem is fine but still not free.  

Can we at least agree on that?

Is this web forum free?  Yes or no?

[msgreenf]

No. There are ads. That's the price for free.

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[mod220]

1 hour ago, msgreenf said:

No. There are ads. That's the price for free.

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Can you just give it up and acknowledge your argument is unsound?  Name one thing you define as “free” and I guarantee I can associate a cost to it.

free beer?

You a fridge to store it

free DVD?

need a DVD player to watch it

So you tell me something free that requires no access, device, ads, time, etc

go!

[msgreenf]

I don't even understand what you are saying. But even Apple doesn't call homekit free

Can you just give it up and acknowledge your argument is unsound?  Name one thing you define as “free” and I guarantee I can associate a cost to it.
free beer?
You a fridge to store it
free DVD?
need a DVD player to watch it
So you tell me something free that requires no access, device, ads, time, etc
go!

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[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, mod220 said:

Can you just give it up and acknowledge your argument is unsound?  Name one thing you define as “free” and I guarantee I can associate a cost to it.

free beer?

You a fridge to store it

free DVD?

need a DVD player to watch it

So you tell me something free that requires no access, device, ads, time, etc

go!

Your argument is no better. And that's being nice.

Oh. The air you breathe. Sunshine. The love your parents give you.

[mod220]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/17/amazon-planning-8-new-alexa-devices-microwave-amplifier.html

if true, and Amazon release a full suite of home audio products (receiver, amp, etc) I guess this proves the home audio/automation market is not too small for the big boys as some here have asserted.  

[SY3]

11 hours ago, mod220 said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/17/amazon-planning-8-new-alexa-devices-microwave-amplifier.html

if true, and Amazon release a full suite of home audio products (receiver, amp, etc) I guess this proves the home audio/automation market is not too small for the big boys as some here have asserted.  

Who said that the market is too small for the big boys???  If Amazon wants to make an AV receiver - good for them.  If you want to buy all Amazon branded electronics, go for it and let us know how it works for you. 

In the mean time, I'm going to continue to enjoy my Control4 system.  

[eggzlot]

12 hours ago, mod220 said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/17/amazon-planning-8-new-alexa-devices-microwave-amplifier.html

if true, and Amazon release a full suite of home audio products (receiver, amp, etc) I guess this proves the home audio/automation market is not too small for the big boys as some here have asserted.  

cant wait for the ads on the AVR.  listening to a TV show and poof - a pop up ad for something.  If you want the ad free AVR that will cost you

The beauty of C4 is that in all likelihood you can use that AVR in your project.  So if you want an Amazon AVR over a Denon or Marantz or Yamaha or whatever you have yet another option. 

[mod220]

Lets wait and see the products before passing judgement, I’m simply showing the reality that amazon is willing to go into “small businesses” ie home receivers, contrary to what many here have suggested.  The big boys want entire ecosystems with us at all times (in home, in car, on phone, on wrist), home automation in there minds is one cog in that system.  So while it may be a small subset, the continued belief that C4 is immune long term I think is a massive mistake.  

[eggzlot]

6 minutes ago, mod220 said:

Lets wait and see the products before passing judgement, I’m simply showing the reality that amazon is willing to go into “small businesses” ie home receivers, contrary to what many here have suggested.  The big boys want entire ecosystems with us at all times (in home, in car, on phone, on wrist), home automation in there minds is one cog in that system.  So while it may be a small subset, the continued belief that C4 is immune long term I think is a massive mistake.  

maybe I cannot see the forest through the trees.  Amazon FireTV works in C4 with a dongle.  Echo/Dot's etc all work in C4.  someone even hacked the dash buttons I think to work in C4.  So if Amazon releases a Microwave or an AVR, it may work in C4 too, not replace C4.  The more hardware on the market, the more competition, the more choices we have as consumers - that's a good thing.  C4 has a lot of hardware but their big platform is their local non cloud based software that ties it all together.  When the big boys start to talk about platforms and software to cover all products (not just select HVAC/lighting/door locks) then my ears will perk up.  If Amazon releases a microwave or Google buys a camera company - its still a very small footprint in the big AUTOMATION landscape (not device landscape).

[mod220]

The biggest expenses of C4 are the controllers and dealer programming fees, the big boys eliminate both.  All cloud based with zero cost to consumer.  That’s the forest, and what C4 needs to worry about.  Over the last 5 years look at the innovation trajectory of the big boys compared to C4.  C4 still has a niche, but my god, between the innovation trajectory, and cost disparity, not sure how you can think the big boys won’t be serious players in this space eventually going head to head with C4. Amazon making receivers, Onkyo receivers with HomeKit built in, it appears they are going to keep coming

[SY3]

1 hour ago, mod220 said:

Lets wait and see the products before passing judgement, I’m simply showing the reality that amazon is willing to go into “small businesses” ie home receivers, contrary to what many here have suggested.  The big boys want entire ecosystems with us at all times (in home, in car, on phone, on wrist), home automation in there minds is one cog in that system.  So while it may be a small subset, the continued belief that C4 is immune long term I think is a massive mistake.  

No one is passing judgement on new product announcements - Amazon, Apple, or whoever.  Not even sure what your point is anymore by coming on a Control4 user forum and making arguments like you know what is going to happen in the home automation space. C4 isn't immune to competition just like Amazon isn't immune even through they are worth $1 Trillion.

Sure - Apple, Amazon, et all all have a name in the game.  No one disagrees.  There are a ton of products that say "Works with Alexa" or "Homekit Enabled".  Which one is better?  That's for each consumer to decide for themselves on what fits their needs.   

[therockhr]

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/20/17880918/amazon-subwoofer-announced-echo-sub-alexa-price-release-date

This should be more worrisome to Sonos than C4.

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, mod220 said:

The biggest expenses of C4 are the controllers and dealer programming fees, the big boys eliminate both.  All cloud based with zero cost to consumer.  That’s the forest, and what C4 needs to worry about.  Over the last 5 years look at the innovation trajectory of the big boys compared to C4.  C4 still has a niche, but my god, between the innovation trajectory, and cost disparity, not sure how you can think the big boys won’t be serious players in this space eventually going head to head with C4. Amazon making receivers, Onkyo receivers with HomeKit built in, it appears they are going to keep coming

cloud vs local

I dont want a 100% cloud based solution.

*yawn*

I do not want a 100% DIY system, i actually like that I can hire someone to do some stuff for me.  My time is money.  And I do not have a ton of free time when I get home due to family obligations.  I dont really want to tinker.  I do not want cloud to cloud hopping for various device.  

[eggzlot]

13 minutes ago, SY3 said:

No one is passing judgement on new product announcements - Amazon, Apple, or whoever.  Not even sure what your point is anymore by coming on a Control4 user forum and making arguments like you know what is going to happen in the home automation space. C4 isn't immune to competition just like Amazon isn't immune even through they are worth $1 Trillion.

  

agree 100%.  Come here to talk about C4, its products, how you can leverage it, troubleshooting, etc.  To come here and try to stir up the pot on its doom and gloom is pointless.  Maybe I should go to a Porsche forum and post about the latest 2019 Mustang and say how the $30,000 Mustang is putting Porsche out of business.

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, eggzlot said:

agree 100%.  Come here to talk about C4, its products, how you can leverage it, troubleshooting, etc.  To come here and try to stir up the pot on its doom and gloom is pointless.  Maybe I should go to a Porsche forum and post about the latest 2019 Mustang and say how the $30,000 Mustang is putting Porsche out of business.

you can always ignore the thread...

I enjoy these threads. i think it makes sense to talk about the challenges C4 faces but also how C4 is better or worse than the other solutions out there.

As others have said, I don't see any of the "big players" totally killing C4, at least not any time soon. Amazon is not going to make a product that opens a driveway gate or controls a wine cellar. As long as most AV systems consists of 20 year old cable boxes and are controlled with IR, they wont go all in.

[eggzlot]

13 minutes ago, therockhr said:

you can always ignore the thread...

 

I've suggested to create 1 massive Sticky on this topic (demise of C4/disruption from the "big boys") and just put it somewhere and let everyone post in there.  This way I know what thread to avoid :-)  At some point this 18 page thread must have had something of use...maybe???