oconnellc Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I live in an area where my sump pump is a critical piece of the flood control situation in my basement. I'm getting a backup pump installed and I wonder if others could comment or provide some ideas on ways that they have incorporated their C4 system in to monitoring their sump pump. For example, water sensors to detect flooding? Tools to monitor the charge on the battery backup power? Tools for monitoring the pump itself? I have three small children and a wife with some health issues, so dealing with flooding is just something I don't have time for. I want to know if a pump fails, I want to know the health of the battery backups, etc. I know that going down and testing the battery myself is possible and so is manually testing the pumps. But the reality is, that aint gonna happen, so I want the system to proactively notify me of important events as much as possible.I'd appreciate any thoughts/ideas/comments.Thanks,Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercedes Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I use a Card Access water detection kit in my utility room where the sump and the rest of the major plumbing is located. If it detects water I have it sound an alert and flash the lights in my master bedroom. I would think you could install the sensor in the sump pit at a certain level so you could know before the water exits the pit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I think there may be some synergies between this thread and the one on "Monitoring Water Tank/Cistern levels". A float switch was suggested in the other thread - maybe you put one of those above the level where the sump pump is supposed to kick in so you know that the level is too high and a flood may occur soon. Is the battery backup integrated into C4? Or would you need something else to monitor that and kick off emails, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 What kind of battery back up could work on a sump pump and be monitored by C4? I just moved into a house a few months ago with a sump pump and we fear that come the summer storms in NJ we may lose power, and lose our sump pump. One day we want a whole home generator, but that is not in the cards now. Very curious as to what people suggest, options we have with battery back ups, C4 integration, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 ^ I use an inverter and a few truck batteries to run a secondary pump. Honestly, I have no desire to hook this stuff up to Control4. Chances are good if I needed back-up systems, the power is already out. I check the primary pump 3 times/yr with a garden hose. I wonder how interfacing an inverter with Control4 is going to accomplish piece of mind? With that system, it is as simple as tripping the breaker to the pump systems and letting the inverter do the rest. How long does all this take? Lets put it this way, my wife spends more time in the bathroom. The last disaster here, the rain was falling at such a clip that any level warning wouldn't have provided enough time to get in position to prevent flooding. Redundant pumps/interval testing is your friend... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Controlfouruserguy - speaking to a novice here. So if you lose power, you go downstairs and manually flip over to the back up pump that is working off an inverter and truck batteries? What if you are not home? Any automatic way for the switch over? Through Control4 or not..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 The inverter provides that "change-over" upon loss of mains power. This is the point- if you are not home, no amount of automated warning is going to do much. That all needs to be battery-backed and pulled together into one integrated system (not Control4-grade but more like Allen Bradley grade) that actually pumps water under any condition. The inverter, batteries, extra pump, conduit and big-ass cabling is very expensive. But so is a flood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 I agree that relying purely on C4 is limited, but it's still nice if you can call your neighbour to check things out, let a plumber in etc if the back-up kicks in. One option:Combine a standard flood-sensor near the pump and use an Axxess Ind sensor to connect it. Make sure to power the sensor, then if power fails the Axxess driver can report loss of communication - ie report power is likely out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 There are plenty of systems on the market that provide battery and cellular notification of water, freeze, power, and pump failure. If the concern of failure is high I'd first invest in the highest quality pumps I could afford and then I'd invest in one of these notification products which will be more reliable then simple C4 integration. These are just a few: www.nexpump.com www.pumpalarm.com/ www.waynepumps.com blueangelpumps.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oconnellc Posted July 8, 2014 Author Share Posted July 8, 2014 Thanks to all for the spirit of your responses. For those who didn't notice, im actually having redundant pumps with battery backup installed. I know I can test manually. I can also change channels on my tv manually and flip my light switches manually as well. However, having a system that proactively monitors the health of my battery backup power seems like just the thing that home automation was made for. Knowing that both pumps have failed and that water is coming up before thousands of dollars of damage occurs seems valuable. For example, I can go downstairs and unplug electrical equipment. Possibly carry valuable things upstairs. There is value in knowing the state of these sorts of things. If anyone has integrated some of these simple devices into their c4 system, I would greatly appreciate anything you would care to share. If anyone has good advice on other devices unrelated to c4, I would be grateful for anything you care to share on that subject as well. However, if your advice is that I not bother to learn anything about these types of tools, that doesn't seem terribly valuable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Water- Get a liquid sensor and run it to your I/OBattery charger- get a current clamp and run it an eGauge, get a driver and run it on C4Battery- Depth of charge requires initial/final V, based on time with a load applied. Need to find a device that closes on a preset V, run that contact to your I/OInverter Changeover- Need to find an automated mains cut-out switch that can handle the I of the pumps. Perhaps the CA HD switch. Does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosenqui Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Our sump pit/pump was a source of aggravation until we installed a TripleSafe system a few years back. During the spring our sump runs frequently, so parts like the switch mechanism or the motor can wear out. The system we've got now has 2 Zoeller pumps plus a 12V battery-powered pump, so total pump failure is extremely unlikely. The 12V pump is a marine bilge pump connected to a large sealed battery with a charging unit. If the water ever gets high enough for the battery unit to kick in, the charging unit emits a smoke-detector style squeal. I also have a 13.5kW Generac natural gas generator with an automatic cutover switch, and the sump circuits are on the breaker panel controlled by the generator, so lack of electricity will not cause me any sump trouble. The only thing that could flood me now is a clogged or frozen discharge line. A second discharge line for pump #2 would have been ideal, but we have extensive landscaping and paving so it was not in the cards when the sump was upgraded. I have a little stainless steel aquarium float switch connected to my security panel as a water alarm. I have it set in the pit just above the water level where the 2nd Zoeller pump kicks in, which is just below where the 12V pump kicks in. They're cheap to buy off eBay so I have an extra on hand in case the first one fails for some reason. Automation-wise, what I wish I had was some electrical monitoring of the pumps. I had the primary pump's switch fail closed about a year ago, so the main pump ran constantly for several days before I happened to hear it gurgling away. Knowing the pumps cycle time and on/off ratio would have alerted me to that trouble, plus I'd know when we've got an unusual amount of ground water and can keep a closer eye on things. Basically, any time pump #2 has to kick in I know I've got a lot of water coming in or pump #1 has failed. I should probably add another float switch just above the high-water mark of pump #1, then wire that into the automation system to generate an alert when it trips. That would at least tell me if sump #1 was failing to keep up or had died. oconnellc: sounds like you're on the right track. Stick with a high-quality but low-tech solution and then use your automation system to check up on it. Handling a prolonged power failure will be your major challenge; but for early warning of pump issues, try the simple float switch technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CFUG Posted July 8, 2014 Share Posted July 8, 2014 Automation-wise, what I wish I had was some electrical monitoring of the pumps. I had the primary pump's switch fail closed about a year ago, so the main pump ran constantly for several days before I happened to hear it gurgling away. Knowing the pumps cycle time and on/off ratio would have alerted me to that trouble, plus I'd know when we've got an unusual amount of ground water and can keep a closer eye on things. Basically, any time pump #2 has to kick in I know I've got a lot of water coming in or pump #1 has failed.Right, this is what OP is on here asking about and it appears you are too. If you had a I clamp on that pump, C4 could tell you that it is either running a high duty or not running at all. I use a rain sensor to kick-in a monitor window for pump activity. That window is apart from normal pump activity which also gets reported. Emails, announcements, flashing lights- do it all through C4. The entire project, including back-up devices was damn expensive and took hours & hours to program. If I hired out the engineering and installation, it would have cost dearly. Suggest going on a plumbing Forum or the pump boards for the mechanics. If you guys need specific C4 advice then someone here probably can tackle individual items. That's the way it works- we can't design a system without seeing and feeling what is going on there. Between myself and fire/medic, I think it's covered. I don't know what "other devices unrelated C4" OP is talking about. I tried to answer that in post #11 though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turls Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 Old topic, but I just went through yet another sewage ejection pump failure and my water sensors were late to notify... http://www.sumptest.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted March 9, 2017 Share Posted March 9, 2017 1 hour ago, turls said: Old topic, but I just went through yet another sewage ejection pump failure and my water sensors were late to notify... http://www.sumptest.com/ We got a water pump installed in our on top of the electric one. should we lose electric, the second pump/float will take over and its run purely on water. the sump pump is in the same room as our main water line so running a copper pipe was easy. i try 1-2x a year to disconnect the power to the main pump and just test the water pump to make sure it still works. basically uses the pressure/power of water to pump more water out of the pit. can go on theoretically forever as long as your water supply is not cut off. earlier in this post I thought about getting c4 involved in helping to automate this but I did not like the idea of a battery back up since the batteries can lose juice over time, nor did I have an easy area to install a shelf to hold a few car batteries, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 We ended up going with http://www.ionproducts.net. The Sumpro line is awesome! I'd say it's the Bentley of sump pump systems. Also added their Ion Gateway which provides cellular alerts, the system also had dry contacts so can also integrate it into C4 http://www.ionproducts.net/batterybackupsystems/sumpro-platinum/ http://www.ionproducts.net/ion-gateway/ Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control-IT Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 I would assume most people have an alarm which should have a cellular radio and battery back up on board. Just put in a wireless or hardwired water sensor. It's a $30 part at most. Get a notification on your phone if it happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 No alarm system here, believe they are an utter waste of money. Not a waste of money is my trusty Springfield Armory XD Mod2... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 2 hours ago, cdepaola said: No alarm system here, believe they are an utter waste of money. Not a waste of money is my trusty Springfield Armory XD Mod2... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk While you can argue all day long about burglary security alarms vs guns - A security system also handles fire (and yes flood). The ability to KNOW when one of those two things happen I'd say have some value. Even if it's only to make sure the rifles are safe vs the family.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddy.trochez Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 13 hours ago, cdepaola said: No alarm system here, believe they are an utter waste of money. Not a waste of money is my trusty Springfield Armory XD Mod2... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Ouch! This is the most unpleasant comment I've ever read in the forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 minute ago, eddy.trochez said: Ouch! This is the most unpleasant comment I've ever read in the forum. You must no have read very many comments on here then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Ouch! This is the most unpleasant comment I've ever read in the forum. Seriously? Because you sell a lot of alarm system and i said they are a waste of money? Ill clarify that, monitored burglar alarm systems are a waste of money. However, they monitored fire alarm is a good investment of course today nest and others provide their own monitoring. Also a local only burglar alarm isn't a horrible purchase. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Control-IT Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 We have probably in the neighborhood of 1000 monitored alarm systems and I would have to say the majority feel that they are worth the price of admission or they wouldn't continue to pay for them. Besides the fact that they protect their home when they are away they get alerts on anything and everything they want including when a door opens, when there is an alarm, when there is a low temp on a thermostat or sensor, when there is smoke, when there is a high temp, when their kids come home, when their housekeeper arrives or leaves, when there is motion or a door opened in an area where there shouldn't be (kid in that gun closet), a cabinet is opened that shouldn't be (that liquor cabinet), etc, etc, etc. Also it's monitored by a cellular radio so when your power or internet goes out you continue to get alerts and also it's on battery so it will run and continue to do all of these things in the absence of power for many hours. We get immediate alerts on our phones when these things happen and can also use Geo to warm the house, cool the house, shut the garage door, arm the system, disarm the system, turn on the lights, etc. when we go out of or go into our pre set distances from our home. I can get a text @ 11:00 if I haven't arrived home that my alarm isn't set. In addition I can do poor mans integration and run thermostats, locks, and dozens of lights on schedules and do it all from an app or PC with almost ZERO programming. No wires, no 4 sight subscriptions, no lines of code..nothing. Can you do all that with a C4 system with little to no programming? How about get immediate text messages just by checking a couple of boxes in the web portal on what and don't want to know about? Our guys can setup this all up from their phones in minutes not days and we can do most of these things on a small scale for a customer for less than $1000. Less than the price of a high end sump pump. I can monitor that water level as well and get a text when the power is off and the sump batteries have died and my alarm panel is telling me that the house is flooding. It can't turn your TV on and play music or do a full blown automation but for under 2K I could give you a very reliable system and toss in a few Sonos Play1's to give you something to listen to. Most people are happy with that and get a huge bang for their buck. You wouldn't have to install 1 driver and then talk about how it doesn't work a few months from now. You won't apply an update and break stuff. We set this stuff up for people a dozen times a week and sometimes never hear from them again.....EVER. They keep paying the bill so I guess it's working. Can't say that for a C4 system as much as I like to do those installs. I enjoy doing them but I can't say they are a money maker for us. It's more of a hobby while our alarm guys are knocking out 2 installs each a day for $40/month/customer and every body is apparently happy. There are the few that want more of course and we are happy to take their money but an alarm system isn't just an alarm system anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prabeau Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 All of a sudden I like my .73 dollar ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 We have probably in the neighborhood of 1000 monitored alarm systems and I would have to say the majority feel that they are worth the price of admission or they wouldn't continue to pay for them. . All I care about with an alarm system is if it does what it's intended to do which is stop a burglary. A local system only, hell a sign on the door or in the yard, does that as well as a monitored system. The time an alarm goes off till the arrival of a police officer is more then a burgler needs to get in and out. Outdoor sirens are more effective then monitoring. As for fire protection this does offer some value but still very little. A residential sprinkler is a much better investment and will save your house while a monitored alarm will get the FD there but fire doubles in size ever 22 seconds so... Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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