Don't see control4 going diy anytime soon

[blub]

Because if they do DIY the MUST have direct support for those DIY people - at least to some degree. You can claim all you want about "they can then call a dealer" but that's plain nonsense. Bringing out a DIY product without direct support is just no feasible. Do so and watch the whole product drown in it's own sorrow.

 

DIY that gets nothing but complaints won't boost sales over the long run at all.

 

Free or not free doesn't matter at all in this scenario.

 

I'll say it again - stop thinking about this forum as anything being even remotely a representation of the end-user group.

If the product as it stands goes full DIY and that with a tremendous amount of support (and I think Ryan for got a zero behind his 2 on the magnitude - remember that you're talking GLOBAL products here) - it'll be a laughing stock. Plenty of people on here have dealt with DEALERS not being able to grasp the whole product - the average Best Buy/Amazon Shopper will fare far worse.

Sure, chances are a good amount of the members and a handful of the lurkers would do fine - but that's not any target worth going for.

 

Ok now I get what you mean. That makes sense, they would have to provide support and I agree resellers like Amazon and such could not do that,

[thegreatheed]

Revolv used a Hub for there app

they were bought by Nest.

The dealer model will work, however to grow you also need user interaction.

Just like blackberry needs Apps

So, it's not just an app, like you claimed.

Revolv also doesn't do everything I mentioned.

[therockhr]

Because if they do DIY the MUST have direct support for those DIY people - at least to some degree. You can claim all you want about "they can then call a dealer" but that's plain nonsense. Bringing out a DIY product without direct support is just no feasible. Do so and watch the whole product drown in it's own sorrow.

 

DIY that gets nothing but complaints won't boost sales over the long run at all.

 

Free or not free doesn't matter at all in this scenario.

 

I'll say it again - stop thinking about this forum as anything being even remotely a representation of the end-user group.

If the product as it stands goes full DIY and that with a tremendous amount of support (and I think Ryan for got a zero behind his 2 on the magnitude - remember that you're talking GLOBAL products here) - it'll be a laughing stock. Plenty of people on here have dealt with DEALERS not being able to grasp the whole product - the average Best Buy/Amazon Shopper will fare far worse.

Sure, chances are a good amount of the members and a handful of the lurkers would do fine - but that's not any target worth going for.

 

If C4 couldn't figure out how to develop a technical support model for end users like every other tech company then they probably have some real issues.

 

I still am baffled how you think if C4 made the software available that now all the sudden everyone's grandpa is going to want a home control system. C4 being available would hurt Insteon, Roomie, iRule, Vera, CastleOS, Lutron etc. It's not going to open home control to a new audience.

[blub]

If C4 couldn't figure out how to develop a technical support model for end users like every other tech company then they probably have some real issues.

 

I still am baffled how you think if C4 made the software available that now all the sudden everyone's grandpa is going to want a home control system. C4 being available would hurt Insteon, Roomie, iRule, Vera, CastleOS, Lutron etc. It's not going to open home control to a new audience.

I bet they could, its just too expensive....

[therockhr]

There is also a clear difference in marketing your system as DIY versus having a way to obtain Composer Pro. In no way would I think it was wise for C4 to market their product as DIY. Lutron has no mention of DIY for Radio Ra2, yet if someone really wants the configuration software, there are steps you can take to get it.

[Cyknight]

If C4 couldn't figure out how to develop a technical support model for end users like every other tech company then they probably have some real issues.

 

NON of these "tech companies" you mean do what Control4 does. They do PARTS of what Control4 does.

 

Plus the point wasn't about being ABLE to do so - it's about the COST involved (running and initial) and if that is in any way off-set by the 'great amount of new product being sold' that is being touted - and I'm not sure by a long stretch it would be (with ComposerPro being the way it is at this point in time).

 

This might be a whole different discussion if the software was a different story - and saying "then they should do that" is another silly point - if it was that simple (for a system with the capability that Control4 - or Crestron, or Savant, or .... - has), then there'd be lots of software of the sort out today.

 

One thing that I always feel with many of these sorts of discussions is that there is an attempt to view Control4 as a system for 'advanced user interface control' - which, while that is something Control4 does indeed provide, is only the tip of the iceberg as to what a Control4 system has the ABILITY to do.

 

Being able to control your lights from a phone is NOT the equivalent of having an integrated complete smart home.

One button Movie and lighting starting is NOT the equivalent of having an integrated complete smart home.

Sending you a text when your alarm goes of is NOT the equivalent of having an integrated complete smart home.

Even having a thermostat that automatically learns your daily presence ration and preferred temperatures with added occupancy sensing ability is only a PART  of having an integrated complete smart home.

 

Combining all of that and more, then adding a layer of all these things and a LOT more happening based on door open/closure, light sensing, occupancy/motion sensing time of day, sunset/sunrise, pressure sensing, and add to that list as you desire - that creates a true smart home/automated home.

 

That, in part at least, is likely the intended message of the article. There's lots of cool fringe stuff out there, but they are smart in really small sections of the overall picture, and the definition of a smart home has been watered down to mean anything that does one little thing (regardless of how well they might do it) 'smart'.

Even Apple's greatly anticipated 'Home Kit' is for all I've seen of it only an interface to centralize user initiated control - nothing wrong with that at all, but it doesn't equal automation.

 

 

au·to·mate

ˈôdəˌmāt/

verb

past tense: automated; past participle: automated

convert (a process or facility) to largely automatic operation.

 

Does not equal "pretty, manageable interface where I can press buttons (or even speak commands!) to do lots of different things" - in it's purest form, you wouldn't even have to THINK about turning on a light because it's dark in a room and you want to be in it - your home has already seen you going to the room and turned it on before you need to.

[createauto]

I can see both sides of this argument.

 

As a dealer I can definitely see smart home technology becoming far more accessible to everyone.

 

Roomie Remote for example is a great low cost iPad/iPhone based control system, which uses network discovery to identify devices on the network that can be controlled and added to the system with the click of button. Systems like these and many more will become common place in the future i'm sure and for this reason the DIY enthusiast will have a vast amount of choice in the future. From a personal perspective, I only see that as a positive. I think the market will benefit as a whole and future products from the likes of Apple, Nest etc will drive awareness, demand and ultimately help drive the industry forward.

 

However, having been the industry some 12 years, (relatively short I'm sure, compared with some other dealers), I have yet to see a DIY installation which comes up to the standard of a professional install. I'm sure there are some out there, I'm just saying I haven't seen one yet. 

 

I would suggest that most of our customer base neither have the time nor the desire to undertake integration of their home and I suspect this maybe true of a large portion of Control4 installs. Out of all of our customer base, we only have a small number of clients that elect to use Compose HE to make changes to their system. 

 

Now I can visit my local DIY store and buy floor tiles, tile adhesive and grout. I could even attempt to lay the tiles myself, but I dread to think how the final outcome would look !! So, I would prefer to pay a professional tiler, who tiles everyday to undertake the job for me. He's quicker and far neater than I could ever hope to be and I'm happy to pay him for his time and expertise. 

 

To my mind Control4 is an extremely capable and reliable platform, but if customers want to have more control over system design and programming, I would submit that perhaps Control4 is not the right option for everyone. I think the Control4 business model will and still is relevant to those who neither have the time, inclination or expertise to install such a system successfully themselves.

 

For those that don't agree, there are some really good and capable options out there now. And if I wasn't in the industry, I would certainly give some of those systems a test drive myself, because technology is moving quickly and for the DIY enthusiast the market has never looked so good !!

[Cyknight]

Now I can visit my local DIY store and buy floor tiles, tile adhesive and grout. I could even attempt to lay the tiles myself, but I dread to think how the final outcome would look !!

 

Actually I lay down a pretty mean tile....

[therockhr]

NON of these "tech companies" you mean do what Control4 does. They do PARTS of what Control4 does.

 

Plus the point wasn't about being ABLE to do so - it's about the COST involved (running and initial) and if that is in any way off-set by the 'great amount of new product being sold' that is being touted - and I'm not sure by a long stretch it would be (with ComposerPro being the way it is at this point in time).

 

This might be a whole different discussion if the software was a different story - and saying "then they should do that" is another silly point - if it was that simple (for a system with the capability that Control4 - or Crestron, or Savant, or .... - has), then there'd be lots of software of the sort out today.

 

One thing that I always feel with many of these sorts of discussions is that there is an attempt to view Control4 as a system for 'advanced user interface control' - which, while that is something Control4 does indeed provide, is only the tip of the iceberg as to what a Control4 system has the ABILITY to do.

 

Being able to control your lights from a phone is NOT the equivalent of having an integrated complete smart home.

One button Movie and lighting starting is NOT the equivalent of having an integrated complete smart home.

Sending you a text when your alarm goes of is NOT the equivalent of having an integrated complete smart home.

Even having a thermostat that automatically learns your daily presence ration and preferred temperatures with added occupancy sensing ability is only a PART  of having an integrated complete smart home.

 

Combining all of that and more, then adding a layer of all these things and a LOT more happening based on door open/closure, light sensing, occupancy/motion sensing time of day, sunset/sunrise, pressure sensing, and add to that list as you desire - that creates a true smart home/automated home.

 

That, in part at least, is likely the intended message of the article. There's lots of cool fringe stuff out there, but they are smart in really small sections of the overall picture, and the definition of a smart home has been watered down to mean anything that does one little thing (regardless of how well they might do it) 'smart'.

Even Apple's greatly anticipated 'Home Kit' is for all I've seen of it only an interface to centralize user initiated control - nothing wrong with that at all, but it doesn't equal automation.

 

 

 

Does not equal "pretty, manageable interface where I can press buttons (or even speak commands!) to do lots of different things" - in it's purest form, you wouldn't even have to THINK about turning on a light because it's dark in a room and you want to be in it - your home has already seen you going to the room and turned it on before you need to.

All the automation you just mentioned can be done with Composer HE which is available to end users now. So we know that is not the reason they don't allow Pro to end users.

They don't release Pro because they are afraid to lose dealers. sorry but all the other reasons that have been given could be taken care of fairly easy.

[Cyknight]

All the automation you just mentioned can be done with Composer HE which is available to end users now. So we know that is not the reason they don't allow Pro to end users.

 

But adding, connecting and setting up all those devices properly to be able to do all this is NOT done with ComposerHE now is it - because that is exactly what you're arguing to get.

 

 

sorry but all the other reasons that have been given could be taken care of fairly easy

 

Except that a number of those other reasons have yet to be refuted. Yelling "not true" is not actually proof of the opposite.

Any more than constantly saying 'it's the dealers that prevent it' (indirectly by existing) makes it true.

 

I suspect that if Control4 would foresee a large benefit in going DIY this very day that would be offset by losing dealers (assuming they even think that way, let alone that it would be true) you'll see the announcement at the end of the day.

[therockhr]

But adding, connecting and setting up all those devices properly to be able to do all this is NOT done with ComposerHE now is it - because that is exactly what you're arguing to get.

 

It's not hard to add and setup devices "properly" in Control4. It's drag and drop practically. You went on for 3 paragraphs about what it takes to make a "true smart home" as to defend why Pro is not available to all, yet all those things you mentioned could be done with HE.

 

 

Except that a number of those other reasons have yet to be refuted. Yelling "not true" is not actually proof of the opposite.

Any more than constantly saying 'it's the dealers that prevent it' (indirectly by existing) makes it true.

 

The only reason you have given is that Control4 can't support user installs and questions. I have refuted that by saying most tech companies (process automation vendors like Allen Bradley, Siemens, Honeywell, ABB/IT vendors like Cisco, EMC, HP, Dell) are able to support end users. You have come back and said that C4 is different than those (even though PLC's do almost exactly the same things as a home controller) and that it just won't work. How is that any different than just saying "not true"?

 

I have also asked why you think that by C4 making Pro available to users who want it would somehow lead to an uptick in "average joes" wanting to install a system. I have heard many dealers say that most of their customers don't want or need to be able to program the system and that this board is not the norm. If so, then what downside is there to giving out the software. If we are advanced users and we are the only ones wanting the software, then what is the problem?

 

C4 is probably making the right choice not opening up Pro and making the dealers mad. In the niche market that they are in they just couldn't handle that lose. I do think it will hurt them in the long run when customers get tired of having to call a dealer everytime they want to add a new IoT device.

[msgreenf]

It's not hard to add and setup devices "properly" in Control4. It's drag and drop practically. You went on for 3 paragraphs about what it takes to make a "true smart home" as to defend why Pro is not available to all, yet all those things you mentioned could be done with HE.

The only reason you have given is that Control4 can't support user installs and questions. I have refuted that by saying most tech companies (process automation vendors like Allen Bradley, Siemens, Honeywell, ABB/IT vendors like Cisco, EMC, HP, Dell) are able to support end users. You have come back and said that C4 is different than those (even though PLC's do almost exactly the same things as a home controller) and that it just won't work. How is that any different than just saying "not true"?

I have also asked why you think that by C4 making Pro available to users who want it would somehow lead to an uptick in "average joes" wanting to install a system. I have heard many dealers say that most of their customers don't want or need to be able to program the system and that this board is not the norm. If so, then what downside is there to giving out the software. If we are advanced users and we are the only ones wanting the software, then what is the problem?

C4 is probably making the right choice not opening up Pro and making the dealers mad. In the niche market that they are in they just couldn't handle that lose. I do think it will hurt them in the long run when customers get tired of having to call a dealer everytime they want to add a new IoT device.

Cisco doesn't really support consumers

[Cyknight]

It's not hard to add and setup devices "properly" in Control4. It's drag and drop practically. You went on for 3 paragraphs about what it takes to make a "true smart home" as to defend why Pro is not available to all, yet all those things you mentioned could be done with HE.

 

I went on to explain the difference.

And if it's that simple to do - feel free to explain to me the numerous times I've had to fix EXACTLY that - and why some many tech support calls in general, be they C4 or anyone else are a matter of people not reading the manual?

 

The only reason you have given is that Control4 can't support user installs and questions. I have refuted that by saying most tech companies (process automation vendors like Allen Bradley, Siemens, Honeywell, ABB/IT vendors like Cisco, EMC, HP, Dell) are able to support end users. You have come back and said that C4 is different than those (even though PLC's do almost exactly the same things as a home controller) and that it just won't work. How is that any different than just saying "not true"?

 

Correct I've given you one reason, you used plural, so did I.

ABB and process automation's end-users aren't people - they are specialized companies - the scope of the people in this companies are vastly less divers and lower in number than the 'home owner'. IT is a completely different ball game and shouldn't even be in the list.

 

And I've said it couldn't be REALISTICALLY done with the software as it is now - and the comment on seeing no other (non-dealer) platforms do all this stands, though the day isn't over.

 

 

I have also asked why you think that by C4 making Pro available to users who want it would somehow lead to an uptick in "average joes" wanting to install a system. I have heard many dealers say that most of their customers don't want or need to be able to program the system and that this board is not the norm. If so, then what downside is there to giving out the software. If we are advanced users and we are the only ones wanting the software, then what is the problem?

 

Real life is the problem. Because if this IS handed out to anyone, the number of people that get the software, existing users and other - are likely to go get it. If it WOULD only be a few people, than chances are the 'risk' of losing a large number of dealers over this likely wouldn't be considered worth it. One of the main arguments for DOING it has been that it WOULD start boosting sales - so now it won't? One or the other...

And no, you cannot just allow a few end-users - half the world wouldn't allow it under consumer law.

A high cost price might dissuade some, but that would just be 'to protect the dealers' yes? It would also create a pirating incentive.

[therockhr]

Cisco doesn't really support consumers

 

http://www.cisco.com/cisco/web/support/index.html

[msgreenf]

http://www.cisco.com/cisco/web/support/index.html

Cisco bread and butter is supporting enterprises that pay millions a year in support contracts

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[therockhr]

Cisco bread and butter is supporting enterprises that pay millions a year in support contracts

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

As it should be, but it still doesnt stop them from allowing anyone to download firmware, updates and the software to install and configure the switches.

[therockhr]

Real life is the problem. Because if this IS handed out to anyone, the number of people that get the software, existing users and other - are likely to go get it. If it WOULD only be a few people, than chances are the 'risk' of losing a large number of dealers over this likely wouldn't be considered worth it. One of the main arguments for DOING it has been that it WOULD start boosting sales - so now it won't? One or the other...

And no, you cannot just allow a few end-users - half the world wouldn't allow it under consumer law.

A high cost price might dissuade some, but that would just be 'to protect the dealers' yes? It would also create a pirating incentive.

 

Yes I believe there would be an uptick; not from "average joes" but from users who have been using SmartThings, Vera, ISY, CastleOS and others. Do you think that by Lutron allowing users to download the configuration software to Radio Ra2 it has led to users who had no interest in automated lighting before all of the sudden now want it? I would think the more likely scenario is that users who may have previously went to something like Z-Wave are now moving to Radio Ra2 or Caseta because it is available to end users.

[Cyknight]

Yes I believe there would be an uptick; not from "average joes" but from users who have been using SmartThings, Vera, ISY, CastleOS and others. Do you think that by Lutron allowing users to download the configuration software to Radio Ra2 it has led to users who had no interest in automated lighting before all of the sudden now want it? I would think the more likely scenario is that users who may have previously went to something like Z-Wave are now moving to Radio Ra2 or Caseta because it is available to end users.

A LIMITED version of the software - which exists in Control4 too, it's called ComposerHE.

And it's not a full automation setup.

And if it isn't going to increase their sales significantly, they're liable to regret taking the step - because apparently they're losing dealers over it.

[c4user3622]

Welcome to the end of this company. Their projected growth is 1% (they keep touting the 26% growth projected in home automation) - 1%. Let me repeat that's 1% for a public company.

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[THEORY]

For any here that thinks the product is extremely easy and needs to be DIY.  Round up some friends that you could do these installs for easily and open up a dealership, some might do a decent job, but I think you will understand why the product is not DIY by any means. Your 1 install does not givce you an understanding of what it's like dealing with totally different homes and products.

 

Control4 has lots to work on and improve, being DIY is the lowest thing on that list. They have made it easier for dealers to deploy which should lower the cost of entry.  I do think the price needs to come down a bit and they would be able to capture a much larger market. For the most part the value is there and there is no real huge potential in going DIY mass market, the company would drown itself.

 

They have a ways to go in product stability and when that day comes that everything is rock solid build to build, maybe they could do a C4 lite type scenario but I don't see the product line going DIY anytime in the near future too risky and not enough reward.

[therockhr]

A LIMITED version of the software - which exists in Control4 too, it's called ComposerHE.

And it's not a full automation setup.

And if it isn't going to increase their sales significantly, they're liable to regret taking the step - because apparently they're losing dealers over it.

 

It's not very limited. Still allows you to install and configure devices, create scenes. Limitation is mainly on the amount of devices you can add (I think around 100). HE limits you on the most important part; the setup and installation.

 

I doubt they are regretting it. They created a whole new line (Caseta and SmartBridge) to cater to the consumers. But you did help drive home the point I have been trying to make the whole time; C4's fear of losing dealers if they opened up Pro.

[CFUG]

They have a ways to go in product stability and when that day comes that everything is rock solid build to build, maybe they could do a C4 lite type scenario but I don't see the product line going DIY anytime in the near future too risky and not enough reward.

I don't think the average person on this forum understands how important this statement is.  When I read of an individual who posts about a controller going south or lighting/TVs that lag response, I think of at least 50 others (not registered users mind you) that take note of this.

 

I think it's time to evaluate what it takes to achieve stability in a system.  For me, it's no junk drivers and careful Composer programming.  For a majority of others, it's network quality.  What I can't see easily happening is how Control4 would have any kind of control how it's product is deployed without a representative body.  Period.

 

I have refrained from throwing around professional credentials here because I don't like to read about someone who thinks they have the answers when clearly they don't and they wouldn't be posting here with issues even if they did.  If you want to call it laziness, call it that.  Most here would rather learn how or why something happens.  That's OK but I think DIY has a rather derogatory note wrt the caliber of equipment Control4 offers.  DIY, to me, means low-budget, low skill-level employed and possibly low-grade equipment utilized.  I don't see any of those qualities within the Control4 realm and I would prefer it stays that way.

[THEORY]

I think if you look at the Stability of the platform it has very little to do with Composer programming, and isn't impacted too much by drivers.  The last few builds have had numerous patches, troublesome upgrades that don't go smoothly, and newly introduced glitches.  Sure at times I sound like a broken record, but it's crazy to think the process to produce builds hasn't ever changed or evolved much if any.  Yet the quality of builds hasn't been getting better from a stability standpoint.  Sure the features have been finally becoming more robust and better thought out, but the testing as such of what goes out the door, is no better then it was 2-3 years ago.

[digitaltrader]

I call into question the complexity of the systems that are used in beta testing.  If they are just using vanilla systems for the testing many bugs will go unexposed until released onto large complex functioning systems.

[Tokead]

I think if you look at the Stability of the platform it has very little to do with Composer programming, and isn't impacted too much by drivers. The last few builds have had numerous patches, troublesome upgrades that don't go smoothly, and newly introduced glitches. Sure at times I sound like a broken record, but it's crazy to think the process to produce builds hasn't ever changed or evolved much if any. Yet the quality of builds hasn't been getting better from a stability standpoint. Sure the features have been finally becoming more robust and better thought out, but the testing as such of what goes out the door, is no better then it was 2-3 years ago.

It's the same if not better than MS or Apples software. Just read all the complaints after a new release and watch all the patches.

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