ekohn00 Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 I've had my C4 system for about 7 years, never a real problem until today...... I stopped by Home Depot to pick up bulbs, and there's this amazing sale on Philips LED. It's the first time I ever bough LEDs. Anyway, I replaced some bulbs and discovered the LEDs will blink when the lights are OFF. A little deduction and a call to my C4 dealer. He tells me the old switches do that and the new ones won't. Well with 30 dimmers in the house, I'm not to happy. Anyone know a work around other than never using LEDs? Did C4 ever have a recall - the dealer tells me the old switches have a low voltage on the line - that to me has got to be a problem. What are my options? (again other than not using LEDs) - I'm not about to buy 30 new switches either! thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Hmm where to start. LED comes in two different dimming phases. THAT could be where your problem is - the old lighting came in two forms, most likely you have the 'default' unit (which is what you SHOULD have with incandescent) that is forward phase. The LEDs you have may require revers phase (also called trailing edge). Alternatively, you may not have a problem there - but your load rating for the LEDs are too low - off the top of my had the older normal dimmers needs a minimum of 45w. EITHER can cause what you see. If they do DIM cleanly - ie no flickering at higher levels, it's MOST likely that your load is too low. Quote the old switches have a low voltage on the line - that to me has got to be a problem No, that is not a problem, and the new dimmers have this too - so does ANY dimmer that doesn't get completely shut off (ie has a separate toggle switch, or a 'through' click on a dial). This is perfectly normal for any dimmer operation. The newer lighting is adaptive phase (though there is still a forward phase version out there, due to it's higher load rating), which means they automatically sense if they need to operate forward or reverse phase. Even more importantly, their minimum loads are MUCH lower (7w or 15w, I'd have to look it up). Simply put - either you'll have to make sure you get LEDs that 'fit' the old dimmers in dimming style and load rating (plenty of discussions there on these forums) - or you get the new adaptive phases dimmers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Sorry to hear you're experiencing issues with your Control4 dimmers. The important question for me is how are your dimmers wired? Do you have a properly wired neutral in the dimmer location? If not, and your dimmers were wired 'switch-leg', which is to day, the neutral is not used, then the dimmer has to power itself through the load, which in this case can mean your LED bulbs are getting a small amount of power even when the dimmer is off. If your dimmers are not wired switch-leg, and have a netural properly wired, you shouldn't see any activity on the load with the dimmer turned off. I have 50 dimmable LED bulbs (Feit 60W equivalent) on various Control4 Gen1 Dimmers, with *no* flicker when they're on, and with no blinking or flicker when they're off. If you do have switch leg dimmers, and that is the issue, and if it can't be rewired to use a proper neutral, you may want to replace one of the LED lights in the circuit with an incandescent, which would allow the dimmer to be powered when in the 'off' state. Although you'll lose the power savings from that single bulb, you should get better performance for a switch-leg setup. RyanE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 ^ Good point, switch-leg configuration could also cause this sort of issue and is worth checking for (we rip that sort of setup out on install so didn't even think of it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snaffle8 Posted February 7, 2016 Share Posted February 7, 2016 Dimming led light bulbs is very problematic especially since there are more and more manufacturer cranking out Led lamps as fast and cheap as they can. The new Adaptive phase dimmers do a wonderful job with the right lamps, but it looks like you are not keen on upgrading to them. Considering the the average cost of your lighting bill is about 20% of your overall electrical bill, you may be better off keeping incandescent light bulbs. Your already saving money on your lighting portion of your bill by having dimmers installed. Lutron has a great chart on their website showing how much energy standard dimming saves in $$$, not to mention the prolonged lamp life. Too many people drink the kool-aid and spend thousands on new dimmers and Led lamps then struggle with both the compatibility and prolonged ROI. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekohn00 Posted February 8, 2016 Author Share Posted February 8, 2016 Thanks all for the replies. I've decided on a simple course of action. Just stay with non-LEDs. Depending on costs, I might just try a different LED here and there. My dealer was nice enough to offer a trade-in to move to the new switch...however, I paid the same amount for initial install 7 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitali Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 On 2/7/2016 at 9:19 AM, ekohn00 said: I've had my C4 system for about 7 years, never a real problem until today...... I stopped by Home Depot to pick up bulbs, and there's this amazing sale on Philips LED. It's the first time I ever bough LEDs. Anyway, I replaced some bulbs and discovered the LEDs will blink when the lights are OFF. A little deduction and a call to my C4 dealer. He tells me the old switches do that and the new ones won't. Well with 30 dimmers in the house, I'm not to happy. Anyone know a work around other than never using LEDs? Did C4 ever have a recall - the dealer tells me the old switches have a low voltage on the line - that to me has got to be a problem. What are my options? (again other than not using LEDs) - I'm not about to buy 30 new switches either! thanks. just in case. how did you connect dimmers? do they have "hot", "neutral" and "load" connected might be you used "steal neutral" connection? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 The only place I get this is with the outlet dimmers. I figured it was due to the low load from the LED? But maybe I am wrong. Still have the old CFL's in there and they don't blink. Thanks, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheaterExtreme Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 I had this issue when LED first came out and before I found this forum.... I just keep one bulb in there at is NOT LED and that fixes the issue.... looks a little weird, but is a quick and easy fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THawes Posted February 9, 2016 Share Posted February 9, 2016 This is interesting. I am running mostly 1st-gen dimmers and switches (the bedrooms are on new adaptive phase dimmers & fan controllers) with all LEDs and hadn't run into this. Most of the bulbs are Cree 60W and dim pretty well - I was able to improve it by adjusting the load profiles a bit. I have some Fiet Electric 60W LEDs in lamps that are on outlet dimmers that also work very well (capable of dimming very low which is nice - I need to track down more of these bulbs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ekohn00 Posted February 9, 2016 Author Share Posted February 9, 2016 Thawes, I was thinking of trying the Cree's too. What do you mean my adjusting the load profile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vitali Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Just today saw that issue but with Lutron dimmer. looks funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smarch Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 So I have a question, that I hope is related. I have an old Conrtol4 wireless outlet dimmer. It controls 2 lamps, that I use every day from sunset to late. I'd like to replace the bulbs in these lamps with dimmable led's. Is this possible? What type of bulbs would I be looking for. Right now they are just ordinary incandescent 40W. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 Related? Yes. Possible? Theoretically. Most likely you're controlling a single bulb or maybe dual bulb stand or table lamp - you will not likely be able to find a bulb combination that will reach the minimum load rating on these - so in reality - you probably cannot do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THawes Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 I had bad luck with some cheap LED's in the Wireless Outlet Dimmer, but found that the better Phillips, Cree and Feit bulbs work fine. Currently I have 2 lamps on an outlet dimmer in my living room with Feit 60W bulbs and they dim great. It's hit or miss. They all turn on, some just dimmer better than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christophers Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 i use the philips, i have over 60 of them in use right now on c4 adaptive phase dimmers, and they're all showing reverse phase... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted February 10, 2016 Share Posted February 10, 2016 27 minutes ago, THawes said: I had bad luck with some cheap LED's in the Wireless Outlet Dimmer, but found that the better Phillips, Cree and Feit bulbs work fine. Currently I have 2 lamps on an outlet dimmer in my living room with Feit 60W bulbs and they dim great. It's hit or miss. They all turn on, some just dimmer better than others. It's more than that - if you do not hit the minimum wattage requirement, they'll never turn off (or they'll go ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ON/OFF/ ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnissen Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 I just finished a job and had the same issue, 2 led's, although over the minimum load requirements would flicker when off. I have installed a Clipsal 31LCDA load correction device, which fixed the issue (installed in parallel to the load). Saves you having to keep your old light bulbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 A related question. When we have a powercut and the power comes back on, all our LEDs flash on then go to their last setting (off or on). Is this usual? It is a bit irritating when there is a power outage during the night as the flash of the lights wakes us up when the power goes off and the generator comes on. Then they flash again when the generator goes off and the mains comes back on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 What do you mean by LEDs? Lights, or the LEDs on the dimmers and switches. The latter - yes perfectly normal as the devices are restarting. LED lights in general - you're likely close the the minimum wattage and on device reboot, the trickle triggers them to go on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 35 minutes ago, Cyknight said: What do you mean by LEDs? Lights, or the LEDs on the dimmers and switches. The latter - yes perfectly normal as the devices are restarting. LED lights in general - you're likely close the the minimum wattage and on device reboot, the trickle triggers them to go on. Yeah, I can see how that was unclear. I was talking about LED lights. They are 7 Watts... If I wanted to avoid the flashing on, what wattage would I need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 7 Watts - I wonder if they are detected as forward phase, as 7w is the limit in that case (1w is for reverse - though it's possible I'm mixing the two up). Though if it 5x 7watt.... Forgot if you were on newer devices? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 Yes, I am on the newer devices... I don't really know the difference between reverse phase and forward phase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 They're two different methods of dimming - you don't need to 'know' much more than that and the fact that it may have an affect on the minimum wattage. I'd try adding a single step up in the/a location where you have this issue, and see if it clear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 2 hours ago, Cyknight said: They're two different methods of dimming - you don't need to 'know' much more than that and the fact that it may have an affect on the minimum wattage. I'd try adding a single step up in the/a location where you have this issue, and see if it clear it. Thanks... Will give this a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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