Do led tapes require transformer with 0-10v module?

[Awesomo4000]

Hello everyone, I’m new to the forum, and I searched pretty rigorously for this info on the history and the internet in general so I’m sorry if it’s been asked and answered.

i have a 5 slot panel and decided to add under cabinet and toe kick LEDs to my new kitchen remodel. Regular 8 channel dimmer in the panel working great. I bought the C4 0-10v module but haven’t installed. I ran 14 awg wire from the panel to my LED locations. (All within 30’ of panel)

Can I just wire my LED tapes to this #14 and the #14 to the 0-10v module? I only want white light 5000k and dimmable. No pulsing or color changing. I’d really prefer no little boxes hanging out in or under my cabinets. 

My dealer isn’t sure if the module outputs low voltage For the LEDs but is checking, one electrician says It outputs 120vac and  I still need a driver or transformer for each tape or 1 for a series of tapes and one electrician isn’t sure. (I live in a rural area) 

ive tried to educate myself about LED lighting but I’m just not sure if the module is a driver/transformer. thanks very much 

 

 

[zaphod]

I have played around a bunch with LED tapes but they generally use 12V DC - you can also get 24V DC.  

[Awesomo4000]

So what exactly does the C4 0-10v module output? Is it 120v AC or 12 or 24 DC? 
the installation sheet implies that it’s low voltage and can be connected directly to a light or ballast, but warns that some  Lights  may need separate on/off control.

sorry, confused.

[Awesomo4000]

I guess it really does output 10v DC...

I suppose that should have been obvious but I was under the misunderstanding that 0-10v was just a dimming configuration rather than aligning with a voltage specification. 
 

I’ll try talking to an LED distributor and report back unless anyone else cares to chime in.

[mstafford388]

Yeah 0-10v is not designed to even power anything, it's a low voltage control module for 0-10v specific fixtures that are powered separately, typically with high voltage, then controlled by the 0-10v input to a 0-10v driver for the fixture (or 1-10v for some fixtures).  The benefit is a much cleaner dimming curve, and dimming down to or close to 0%.  Low voltage LED tape is typically 12v or 24v and can be dimmed with either a dimmable power supply for the tape lights where you would dim the high voltage coming in, or a 12/24v driver that is controllable.  

[zaphod]

Something like this can be control via Wifi and there are drivers in C4 for this family of devices. https://www.amazon.com/HaoDeng-Wireless-Controller-Compatible-Assistant/dp/B07C1LN7FZ/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=light+strip+wifi+controller&qid=1593713180&sr=8-7.  I use several of these in my kitchen for the same purposes as you, except I have RGB.  I control them via Wifi and a "hack" to be able to control them from C4.  You can hide these wherever you want but you will need to run wires to your strips and if the run is too long you might experience a voltage drop and dimmer lights.

You can also use DMX.  Look for threads on that.

And you can get A Dresden Elektronik ballast that can connect to a Philips Hue hub.  

These all can work with generic LED strips that are pretty cheap - as cheap as $15 for a 5M(16ft) roll.

[Pounce]

I'd offer this shout out to @jackstone for their driver for Shelly RGBW modules.

 

https://shelly.cloud/products/shelly-rgbw2-smart-home-automation-led-controller/

[zaphod]

Those Shelly devices like nice.  Where do you buy them?  They seem to be European based.  An Amazon listing shows the product as unavailable.

[Pounce]

1 minute ago, zaphod said:

Those Shelly devices like nice.  Where do you buy them?  They seem to be European based.  An Amazon listing shows the product as unavailable.

https://shopusa.shelly.cloud/

They have that US store. They come in and out of stock on Amazon.

[brantlmcdonald]

0-10v is an analog dimming controller. It’s not designed to provide power to any device.

An LED driver designed for 0-10v dimming would typically have 4 wires; black & white for 120v, and grey/purple for 0-10v dimming.

You supply 120v to the driver, and the 0-10v lines are used to signal the dimming state to the driver, in simplest terms.

The light engine is independent of the dimming capabilities of the driver. You would need an LED driver that meets the power specifications of your LED tape that also has 0-10v.

Some drivers will dim to 0%, most will not, in which case you also need an 8-channel relay in your system to turn the drivers off.


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[mujtaba.khokhar]

you might need something like this:

https://arc-led.co.uk/0-10v-dimmable-led-drivers/1241-10057-ecopac-1224v-20w-0-10v-dimmable-led-driver.html#/44-voltage-12v OR

https://www.ultraleds.co.uk/led-dimmer-0-10v-12v-or-24v-8a-maximum.html

Output of 0-10v Module --> Driver --> LED Tape. 

you can leave the driver in the panel and wire up the led tape straight to the wire coming out from the wall for example, The driver will need constant power too 

 

Thanks 

M

Edited July 2, 2020 by mujtaba.khokhar
Forgot a link

[brantlmcdonald]

you might need something like this:
https://arc-led.co.uk/0-10v-dimmable-led-drivers/1241-10057-ecopac-1224v-20w-0-10v-dimmable-led-driver.html#/44-voltage-12v OR
https://www.ultraleds.co.uk/led-dimmer-0-10v-12v-or-24v-8a-maximum.html
Output of 0-10v Module --> Driver --> LED Tape. 
you can leave the driver in the panel and wire up the led tape straight to the wire coming out from the wall for example, The driver will need constant power too 
 
Thanks 
M

To be clear to OP, that driver will require an external power source, 12/24v.

You will need to connect the driver to a transformer controlled by 120v coming from a C4 switch or 8-channel relay.

You will program the switch or relay to power on/off the driver, and the 0-10v connection will be for dimming control only.


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[Awesomo4000]

Thanks for all the Help!!

with all this understood, how about I add three transformers to the panel (hopefully attached to the DIN rail.

The would get 120 vac from the 8 channel dimmer module to power the LEDs, and use the 0-10v dimmer module the dim.

this way control4 native programing can cut off the LED entirely and The 0-10 can dim it. I’m only running 20-50’ on 14awg so it shouldn’t drop too much voltage, right?

I have to split a couple of the led strip into separate strips (the dishwasher, freezer and fridge have to be separate to open) hopefully they will dim and light evenly.

does this sound reasonable? I really like the transformers in the panel for Maintenance and keeping the cabinets clean of hardware

[brantlmcdonald]

I would be cautious about installing the equipment (drivers & transformers) inside the C4 enclosure and violating the listing and warranty. I do not know the specific listing of the C4 equipment, but I would verify before proceeding. Whatever you do make sure you are compliant with NEC 725 when mixing class I and class II circuits.

 

I would not recommend a 50’ run at 12v, even with 14awg. At 1.5A you’d be dropping 3.5%. 24v would be ideal. Idk what your actual current draw is on the tape lighting; 1.5A is conservative.

 

I always look for somewhere within the cabinets to mount drivers when doing an install like this. If nothing else, install a separate enclosure near the C4 enclosure for the drivers. Something like an Eaton “telephone” enclosure works nice. It’s a NEMA-1 enclosure with a hinged door and has an optional flush trim ring.

 

You also don’t necessarily need three transformers; a single adequately sized transformer could power all three drivers, and the 0-10v dimming allows you to set different levels.

 

 

You could also consider skipping the 0-10v entirely and just use 120v dimmable drivers connected to your existing dimming module or a C4 dimmer switch. 0-10v dimming isn’t something I look for in LED tape dimming. I would typically only use that when you have several fixtures in a large area that are all commonly off/on but require different lighting levels, or require precise dimming below 10%. Also it’s the standard in architectural grade and commercial LED fixtures. If you’re goal is to go below 10%, by all means go with 0-10v.

 

 

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[Pounce]

I want to pitch again for the Shelly controllers and I'd really love for you to consider tunable white strips (if you never think you want any color) so you can move from the 5000k if desired at some point in the future.

Is the kitchen built yet? If its already built consider buying something cheap to try out the effect first to make sure its what you want.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Novostella-Dimmable-3000K-6000K-Lighting-Daylight/dp/B07TTP3YTP

[Bdog]

I’m doing the same thing atm.

the way I see it a C4 relay powers the driver and in turn you connect it to a 0-10v dimmer module and program them together? First time installer btw

[Bdog]

Any help would be appreciated wiring diagrams ect 

[anon2828]

I went on a 3 year lollapalooza of trying to figure out the best way to do LED tape in various areas of my home.  Looked at BlackWire (good solutions using their driver and high quality American Lighting LED solutions), but expensive and complicated if you get into DMX control; Philips Hue - expensive, 3rd party LED drivers that fake like they are a Philips Hue to be used with generic cheaper LED tape, etc, etc, etc.

All of my research and testing led me to a solution I have detailed elsewhere on the forum here:

Philips WIZ LED tape.   Why?

• 1/2 cost of Philips Hue
• Readily available at Home Depot
• LED tape quality is excellent
• There is a great Control4 driver for Philips WIZ ($90)
• WiFi controlled, so no issues with Zigbee congestion
• The native app is excellent if you don't want to use Control4
• Control4 control is excellent.  LED tapes respond instantly and can control color from Control4 in a simple slider (other controls available as well)
• You can also get bulbs and other fixtures that work the same way

If you are still building either put a 110v outlet at the end of each location where you want a LED tape run.  Other choice is to run a piece of 18 gauge 2-conductor wire to each location from your central wiring closet and then you can plug all of the transformers in there and splice to each low voltage wiring run.

Amazon has really good aluminum extrusions that I have used with the LED tape (see Muzata LED Channel).  Under cabinets I used the channel and it looks great.  Where the tape cannot be seen I used plastic clips screwed into the structure so as not to rely on the adhesive and allow the strips to "breathe" - heat is the enemy for long term life.

Trust me, I looked at every way to do this, this is the way...

[zaphod]

Are these the lights that you are talking about:  https://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-Color-and-Tunable-White-Dimmable-Smart-Wi-Fi-Wiz-Connected-Light-Strip-2M-560755/313617989

They still seem wicked expensive at $45 for 2M.  And 2M is very short compared to 5M strips that you get from other places.  Is it feasible to do 10-20M with 2M strips - even if you get the 1M extensions?

What did you not like about the Hue compatible controllers with generic strips?  Or generic strips with Wifi controllers (like Magic Home)? Poor quality in the generic strips?

When I look at your bullet points above and consider either generic strips with a Hue compatible controller, or generic strips with a Wifi controller (i.e Magic Home) that it checks pretty much the same boxes but the price is way, way less.

edit - Sorry one thing that I forgot is that these strips that I have mentioned don't have good colour control in c4 - that is for sure.  But I rarely adjust the colours - YMMV.

[brantlmcdonald]

On 6/2/2021 at 7:39 AM, Bdog said:

I’m doing the same thing atm.

the way I see it a C4 relay powers the driver and in turn you connect it to a 0-10v dimmer module and program them together? First time installer btw

If the driver is capable of 0% dimming, no additional relay is needed. If the driver is not capable of 0% dimming, then yes, you need a C4 relay/switch to toggle off/on. 

[anon2828]

zaphod - quality of generic strips always an issue.  I have some going up 25ft high - I don't want to have to go back.  Also, driver for the Philips Wiz was super nice.  Finally, just getting a solution where I didn't have to mix and match parts made a lot of sense.  I've done up to 30ft runs with no problems using the extensions and almost no visible voltage drop at the end of the run.  

[Cyknight]

6 hours ago, anon2828 said:

Trust me, I looked at every way to do this, this is the way...

 

I'm going to have to say...nah I'll do DMX control thanks.

 

 

[zaphod]

12 hours ago, anon2828 said:

zaphod - quality of generic strips always an issue.  I have some going up 25ft high - I don't want to have to go back.  Also, driver for the Philips Wiz was super nice.  Finally, just getting a solution where I didn't have to mix and match parts made a lot of sense.  I've done up to 30ft runs with no problems using the extensions and almost no visible voltage drop at the end of the run.  

How do you get 25ft runs - how many of the main strips plus extensions do you need.  With a main strip plus extension you get about 10ft. How many extensions can you use?

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, zaphod said:

How do you get 25ft runs - how many of the main strips plus extensions do you need.  With a main strip plus extension you get about 10ft. How many extensions can you use?

I think he means they're 25f up in the air (ie roofline lighting) - but how long a single strip can be depends on voltage, LED strip and of course available powersupplies. You can also have one feed line, and run a line alongside the LED to the next strip to ensure the next strip etc get a direct feed to the power supply vs running though strips.

EDIT: This got to be a mess - see follow up post

[zaphod]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

In general we never go over 15f though, on a single feed. Meaning we have houses that have a hundered feet of lighting across a roofline, but there's multiple lines going to a central point to power parts of it.

My experience with the generic strips is that you can maybe get to two rolls (each roll is 15ft or 3m rolls) before you need a new power source but you may notice dimming at the end of the second roll.  There are amplifiers that you can get to do this.  This is with 12V strips.  24V strips should be better as the current would be 1/2 of what it is with 12V strips.

But to me 2-3m strips are way too short.  I have done under the kickplates on the island in my kitchen which looks pretty nice. But I just use the cheap generic strips and the WiFi MagicHome/Flux controllers that are cheap.  Generic 12V strips are under $15 per roll, so less than $1/ft. Indoors I haven't had quality issues but outdoors I have had more issues as the coating turns yellow and gets bubbles.  And it is hard to join strips in a waterproof manner that lasts for the long term.  I tried putting led strips on the tool of my perimeter pool fence but that didn't last more than a few months as I would lose contact at the joints.