Coming Q2 - OS3.3, New Controllers

[therockhr]

2 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

There are many reasons the hc250 was not brought up that outweighed the prevalence of use.

It's a unique architecture, and has a lot of specific oddities that made it very time consuming to ensure integrated properly.

Humor us. Im interested to know why it couldnt have been dumbed down.

[Andrew luecke]

Just my 2cents, but things like this are never a 2 second job. They require a lot of testing, additional development, and often a mechanism for migration. 

[-defunct-]

Just now, therockhr said:

Humor us. Im interested to know why it couldnt have been dumbed down.

OS3 had major zigbee updates.

OS3 had security enhancements to IR and serial.

OS3 had audio changes.

OS3 has a newer, more secure linux kernel.

New controllers support IPv6.

HC250 barely supports TLS1.2

HC250 had flash nav and audio code was tied into navigator code.

The HC250 code-base had a lot of dependencies.

The experience with the half functional HC200/300/500 was bad enough to not consider major limitations on a fully featured controller.

The time to update all of the above was longer than the time it took to remove the driver from the OS.

[-defunct-]

I know it seems minimal changes are made to the OS, but that's because we're good at making the presentation of features similar.

The guts of the system have updates every major release and minor release.

[therockhr]

11 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

OS3 had major zigbee updates.

OS3 had security enhancements to IR and serial.

OS3 had audio changes.

OS3 has a newer, more secure linux kernel.

New controllers support IPv6.

HC250 barely supports TLS1.2

HC250 had flash nav and audio code was tied into navigator code.

The HC250 code-base had a lot of dependencies.

The experience with the half functional HC200/300/500 was bad enough to not consider major limitations on a fully featured controller.

The time to update all of the above was longer than the time it took to remove the driver from the OS.

I never said update it to the full OS3 version. Make it into a smaller IO extender. The IO extender is not on OS3 and probably had those same issues you put above. Disable audio/video/zigbee.

It was just wasteful to EOL a device that wasnt that old and could have been repurposed to fit needs that a lot of people had (IR/Serial/Contact/relay). No one would have really cared if the audio and video were disabled. It would have been nice if could have kept Zigbee but if that would have been too difficult it would have been understandable.

Like I said, I think Control4 does a pretty good job of allowing stuff to be upgraded. This was a glaring exception.

[-defunct-]

Maybe its not clear, but the IOextender got updated to be OS3 compatible, the version revision just didn't change. Also simpler system architecture, less time to implement.

[tacos]

does crestron do similar hardware changes every 5 or so years?

[eggzlot]

6 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

One of my biggest issues with Control4 is forced hardware upgrades. It’s ridiculous and poor IMO.  People are still looking to upgrade to EA controllers with Core is a direct replacement for. Controllers are for IR, RS232 and audio… there is really no reason to ever upgrade hardware unless changing from say analog to digital or what not. 

They moved from flash to android and discontinued support on some devices but didn’t kill off the devices.  some pushed 10+ years and it still works today with the old features 

who said EA is now EOL?

so Savant supports all hardware with updates and new features including their original hardware?  So Savant directly supports customers with 10 year old hardware?  Just curious how it’s different. 

[South Africa C4 user]

Now that OS3.3 has been officially announced, do we have a release date?

[msgreenf]

37 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Now that OS3.3 has been officially announced, do we have a release date?

q2

[RAV]

I find it interesting that the focus of the Negativity seems to be that the HC250 got left behind when the conversion to OS3 took place.

[msgreenf]

10 minutes ago, RAV said:

I find it interesting that the focus of the Negativity seems to be that the HC250 got left behind when the conversion to OS3 took place.

Hc250 is slow AF. You aren't missing anything. 

 

I did an upgrade last year on an 800 from 2.5.3 all the way to 3.2.4. A system that hadn't been touched since like 2016. That's impressive. 

[Control4Savant]

13 hours ago, eggzlot said:

They moved from flash to android and discontinued support on some devices but didn’t kill off the devices.  some pushed 10+ years and it still works today with the old features 

who said EA is now EOL?

so Savant supports all hardware with updates and new features including their original hardware?  So Savant directly supports customers with 10 year old hardware?  Just curious how it’s different. 

 

Control4 is releasing the CORE line as a “replacement” for the EA line. Thats all l am saying. The Control4 controller design was unique and part of the reason why they became so successful. Now its a detriment.  This isnt just about Savant just a difference in how most of the major PRO HA systems work versus C4. 

Savant has hosts and controllers. Most of my hosts are Apple Mac Mini’s level  because that handles just about any small or very large system and the stability and processing power has been flawless. The Pro Apple host above that is really for 1% systems. The support limitations on either are based mostly on Apple OS upgrades. The android host beneath that is designed for small systems and less feature sets. I have hosts of both kinds that are that old and are still supported in current software. When I want or need to upgrade… its replacing a single box with a power cord and CAT cable connection. The controllers …IR/RS2S2/485/relays/IO/audio etc.. take care of the rest and are all done via individual wired or wifi controllers… they need very little to be supported in any software iteration and are inexpensive to individually service or upgrade as needed. 

49 minutes ago, RAV said:

I find it interesting that the focus of the Negativity seems to be that the HC250 got left behind when the conversion to OS3 took place.

I think the HC250 became a focus because it was around the same HC800 release in 2012…

 

39 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Hc250 is slow AF. You aren't missing anything. 

 

I did an upgrade last year on an 800 from 2.5.3 all the way to 3.2.4. A system that hadn't been touched since like 2016. That's impressive.

Again, a lot of us don’t agree that something should be “slow AF” when just doing basic control commands. 

[RAV]

15 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

Control4 is releasing the CORE line as a “replacement” for the EA line. Thats all l am saying. The Control4 controller design was unique and part of the reason why they became so successful. Now its a detriment.  This isnt just about Savant just a difference in how most of the major PRO HA systems work versus C4. 

Savant has hosts and controllers. Most of my hosts are Apple Mac Mini’s level  because that handles just about any small or very large system and the stability and processing power has been flawless. The Pro Apple host above that is really for 1% systems. The support limitations on either are based mostly on Apple OS upgrades. The android host beneath that is designed for small systems and less feature sets. I have hosts of both kinds that are that old and are still supported in current software. When I want or need to upgrade… its replacing a single box with a power cord and CAT cable connection. The controllers …IR/RS2S2/485/relays/IO/audio etc.. take care of the rest and are all done via individual wired or wifi controllers… they need very little to be supported in any software iteration and are inexpensive to individually service or upgrade as needed.

I can see the advantage to the separation of processor, control and audio, I do.

But at the same time I have to wonder, is there a cost savings? Or how much of one there actually is. And reliability affects.
When dividing a EA5 into it's separate functions, you end up with 4 boxes.
Processor, as in the CA10.
IO, as in the IO Expander
Audio, would be new
Zigbee, CA1

That's 4 boxes, 4 power supplys, 4 nic cards, 4 cardboard boxes, 4 SKUs, 4 spaces in shipping, and 4 manufacturing lines, plus 3 extra switch ports, and more points of failure.
That all adds up too.
So over say 15 years; you buy 2 processors, 1 IO, 1 Audio and 1 Zigbee or 2 EA5s categories.
At best you might save 25%? $500? I'm sure the maths been done.

[Control4Savant]

11 minutes ago, RAV said:

I can see the advantage to the separation of processor, control and audio, I do.

But at the same time I have to wonder, is there a cost savings? Or how much of one there actually is. And reliability affects.
When dividing a EA5 into it's separate functions, you end up with 4 boxes.
Processor, as in the CA10.
IO, as in the IO Expander
Audio, would be new
Zigbee, CA1

That's 4 boxes, 4 power supplys, 4 nic cards, 4 cardboard boxes, 4 SKUs, 4 spaces in shipping, and 4 manufacturing lines, plus 3 extra switch ports, and more points of failure.
That all adds up too.
So over say 15 years; you buy 2 processors, 1 IO, 1 Audio and 1 Zigbee or 2 EA5s categories.
At best you might save 25%? $500? I'm sure the maths been done.

Its relative. A more basic system (AV,lighting,climate Savant control)with a $500 host and those separations, the cost would absolutely be noticeable. You also have to consider the system design, installation, upgrade and service costs. We talk about retrofit garage door control regularly here. Needing to match connections and so on when swapping controllers, zigbee services, it doesnt always work out to be 1:1.  I also doubt in the 15 years that only 2 EA5 level controllers would need replaced on a Control4 system.

[RAV]

1 minute ago, Control4Savant said:

Its relative. A more basic system (AV,lighting,climate Savant control)with a $500 host and those separations, the cost would absolutely be noticeable. You also have to consider the system design, installation, upgrade and service costs. We talk about retrofit garage door control regularly here. Needing to match connections and so on when swapping controllers, zigbee services, it doesnt always work out to be 1:1.  I also doubt in the 15 years that only 2 EA5 level controllers would need replaced on a Control4 system.

Yeah, Control4 does need a solution for 4 contacts and 4 relays in a box. (and no ControlByWeb is not the answer, as that unit requires polling the contacts resulting in delays).

Question for you as a Savant dealer. You mention a basic system. So for a Theater system, whats the cost of an EA1 equivalent?
Projector, 3 sources, receiver, 4 light switches and with remote ability. And can it stream audio?
Not the total package, that's not my question. But just the processor portion retail to make all that function?

[Control4Savant]

26 minutes ago, RAV said:

Yeah, Control4 does need a solution for 4 contacts and 4 relays in a box. (and no ControlByWeb is not the answer, as that unit requires polling the contacts resulting in delays).

Question for you as a Savant dealer. You mention a basic system. So for a Theater system, whats the cost of an EA1 equivalent?
Projector, 3 sources, receiver, 4 light switches and with remote ability. And can it stream audio?
Not the total package, that's not my question. But just the processor portion retail to make all that function?

Well again thats relative… Savant has powered soundbars and 2ch/2 zone digital amplifiers with embedded hosts as option for small systems. In your example a normal rack mount basic host (which DOES have a few embedded control ports) w/ included Neeo equivalent remote with the same MSRP as the EA1 & SR260 w/ dock Control4 package.  I also prefer to use Sonos so all streaming services are available but.. thats a particular design on my end. 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Control4Savant said:

 

Control4 is releasing the CORE line as a “replacement” for the EA line. Thats all l am saying.

so instead of CORE if they released EA 2, 4 and 6 as a replacement to EA 1, 3 and 5 then its a moot point to you?

[Control4Savant]

25 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

so instead of CORE if they released EA 2, 4 and 6 as a replacement to EA 1, 3 and 5 then its a moot point to you?

What? I dont really care what they name controllers. 

[eggzlot]

17 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

What? I dont really care what they name controllers. 

You just seem against them releasing new controllers that will one day replace other controllers.

to me that is the circle of life in electronics.  And you can decide to upgrade or just keep what ya got - some people are still rocking flip phones.

On a side note, what is your take on finally taking down 3g cell towers?  Should they keep those up and running for the few you still want to use 3g service?  My alarm system has 3g back up with Verizon so I'll have to get new hardware by the end of the year or I lose that feature.  I'd move to ATT but wait, they just did their sunset a month ago.

[Control4Savant]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

You just seem against them releasing new controllers that will one day replace other controllers.

to me that is the circle of life in electronics.  And you can decide to upgrade or just keep what ya got - some people are still rocking flip phones.

On a side note, what is your take on finally taking down 3g cell towers?  Should they keep those up and running for the few you still want to use 3g service?  My alarm system has 3g back up with Verizon so I'll have to get new hardware by the end of the year or I lose that feature.  I'd move to ATT but wait, they just did their sunset a month ago.

No Iv been clear on what Im against.  If you want to support replacing all of your control hardware every 3-5 years (depending on where you land in the cycle) specifically because of brand design and choice…be my guest. 

I don’t think its a side note, I think you want to reach to relate the two just because they are both technology… 

 

[-defunct-]

12 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

No Iv been clear on what Im against.  If you want to support replacing all of your control hardware every 3-5 years (depending on where you land in the cycle) specifically because of brand design and choice…be my guest. 

I don’t think its a side note, I think you want to reach to relate the two just because they are both technology… 

 

How about changing every 3-5 years because hardware peripherals and hardware security changes?

It's not secure to be using a device built a decade ago, even if it was built to modern standards during that decade.

[Control4Savant]

8 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

How about changing every 3-5 years because hardware peripherals and hardware security changes?

It's not secure to be using a device built a decade ago, even if it was built to modern standards during that decade.

So no one should have any Control4 product older than 5 years? 

[therockhr]

Again, I want to go on record as saying I do not think Control4 does a bad job with hardware obsolescence (outside of the HC-250). I think it would be even better if they separated out the audio from the controllers and got rid of the on screen display all together.   I would have 2 controllers:

• EA-1 minus the AV portion
• CA-10

Thats it (somebody might be asking why not an EA-3 in between. there is literally no difference between an EA-1 and EA-3 except audio). Lots of installs would be fine with just an EA-1. I would also create a smaller IO extender with 1 serial and 4 contacts and 4 relays that could go in a security panel. It would have ethernet along with Zigbee to talk to the controllers.

Audio would be a separate subsystem; either 3rd party or Triad.

OSD would be eliminated as its not worth the time.

Just my opinion. I think its fun to talk system design. Control4 i am sure has done its research and there is a reason they do it the way they do.

[RAV]

10 minutes ago, Control4Savant said:

So no one should have any Control4 product older than 5 years? 

The technology world's moving faster in 2022 than it did in 2012.

Would you use a router from five years ago?

A router is a gateway into your network, as a processor is a gateway into your home control system.
I think the two are a fair comparisson. This gets in, that doesn't, this needs to talk to that, you want this, Ok I know that's over there.