Cyknight Posted March 5, 2023 Share Posted March 5, 2023 5 hours ago, zaphod said: How do you guys deal with ISPs where they want you to use their router to distribute IPTV via the LAN through the house? Well, it depends. Shaw/Rogers using the Xfinity style boxes will SAY they don't support anything but their own router - but will work flawlessly when it's in bridge mode (or even DMZ, or honestly even not DMZ) and the boxes are hardwired (wireless is possible but the boxes can be picky so results vary). So for those, they go on the main network. They may not support it....we just do and make sure the client contacts us not Shaw if there's issue with the signal (our count is at ZERO calls jut FYI out of over a hundred that weren't area outages). And yes there's IP control available. I know Telus here it is required - the boxes will constantly go offline if you don't BUT they have the option to bridge a single port - so system goes on the bridged port, and we connect the boxes (via a switch if more ports are needed) direct to the Telus setup. Note - it's POSSIBLE to do it not on their router, but not on all routers and requires specific settings - and with no IP control available - that it's just so much easier to set the bridged port and wire the two things separately. Can't comment on others as I wouldn't have dealt with them. And yes, all of them will claim it's not supported, but understand that 'supported' in this case means they won't support it - not that it doesn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 3 hours ago, Cyknight said: Well, it depends. Shaw/Rogers using the Xfinity style boxes will SAY they don't support anything but their own router - but will work flawlessly when it's in bridge mode (or even DMZ, or honestly even not DMZ) and the boxes are hardwired (wireless is possible but the boxes can be picky so results vary). So for those, they go on the main network. They may not support it....we just do and make sure the client contacts us not Shaw if there's issue with the signal (our count is at ZERO calls jut FYI out of over a hundred that weren't area outages). And yes there's IP control available. Thanks. I am on Rogers in Toronto, but I am still on legacy cable (non-IPTV) and my modem/gateway is in bridge mode. My network is a mainly Unifi with some unmanaged switches. But I worry that Rogers will sooner or later shut down legacy cable and I will have to deal with this. I have read that if Rogers does firmware upgrades it can cause issues - is that the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 On 3/4/2023 at 9:57 PM, Andrew luecke said: When I was an installer, I used Ubiquiti everything (as it could all be managed via one interface then). I always used POE switches (it makes a big difference to cleanliness and management. And devices like the Core processors have POE support too) If you want official support, araknis for lower end, or Access Networks for high end. If you don't want central management, I've used both TPLink and Dlink DGS in the past, but, you should be looking at central management these days honestly. I used to recommend Omada as an alternative to Unifi, but, I've given the potential risks with Halo, I no longer do. That being said, I've used TPLink unmanaged switches in a commercial job (we used 30 of them), and they were the most solid thing on the job (there were so many issues on that site). However, keep in mind, the commercial installation wasn't an AV install (AV has different requirements), and those switches on that site are slowly being replaced with Unifi too What router->switch (backbone 24 port)->ap would you recommend using from unifi? The udm seems overkill as I don’t need the camera stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew luecke Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 25 minutes ago, therockhr said: What router->switch (backbone 24 port)->ap would you recommend using from unifi? The udm seems overkill as I don’t need the camera stuff. Ignore the fact they have the extra apps. It comes down to throughput with IPS. UDM caps out at 850mbps with IPS enabled. If you have gigabit and want IPS, you need a UDM Pro. Just FYI, you shouldn't use the inbuilt switch on the UDM Pro as a core switch anyway (at least in the past, it had limitations) For switches, most people just need the Unifi Switch 24 with POE (or if you don't mind spending money, Unifi Switch Pro for some 10gbps SFP). Or their Enterprise model if you need 2.5gbps on many ports. Again though, if you have the money to do so, access networks all the way is the best way.. therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 1 hour ago, zaphod said: I have read that if Rogers does firmware upgrades it can cause issues - is that the case? I can't speak for Rogers as such - but it's NEVER been an issue to keep the shaw boxes (same hardware as rogers ignite) updated when behind a router - and we've been doing this since Shaw here went to the Xfinity network boxes (so it's been a few years now - can't keep track, but I want to say 4-5 years, I actually got it personally in their initial customer test roll-out and have been doing it since day 1: or is that day -100 ). What you find on their support pages and reddit etc is likely people using consumer gear - so I can't speak for their experiences. We use our known gear, as mentioned in this thread, and never had an issue - if we're forced to use anyone else's gear/serup we DO indeed still keep the boxes behind the ISP router/modem and use IR control. Note that we've only started using the IP driver more recently, so I don't really have enough data about updates breaking IP control, but frankly - I doubt it'll be a huge issue as they really only have their own OS overtop the factory software - and it would only be that factory (xfinity) software that affects IP control - and at least there's some 'comfort' that C4 and comcast/xfinity are in full cooperation there. That's not flawless but.... I CAN tell you I do know a few dealers out there and they've not had issues, including using the Xfinity IP driver (which by default means they're behind their own routers). I CAN tell you it's not been an issue behind Araknis, Pakedge, and Watchguard in numerous installs, and Mikrotik and Cisco in a few to get service (and firmware updates) to work. Note that the 'few' means that we've just not done many with that setup - but no issues with any of them. At all. This is no guarantee - and we have decided to not do this in a few cases where in-person support should it fail would be problematic (ie very far away, or places where ability/availability to enter the building/service setups is limited) zaphod 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 11 hours ago, Andrew luecke said: Again though, if you have the money to do so, access networks all the way is the best way.. What is the difference between Ruckus (commscope?) and Access Networks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 Access buys Ruckus gear and brands them as Access. They also add their flavor of software for support. Setup of each Access item is practically identical to installing Ruckus branded product. The premium you pay to Access is for their support. Which, comparing both company’s support offerings, doesn’t add much value in my eyes. However, Access will design a network system for most integrators for a fee. therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 1 hour ago, lippavisual said: Access buys Ruckus gear and brands them as Access. They also add their flavor of software for support. Setup of each Access item is practically identical to installing Ruckus branded product. The premium you pay to Access is for their support. Which, comparing both company’s support offerings, doesn’t add much value in my eyes. However, Access will design a network system for most integrators for a fee. You mentioned earlier you did microtik router, edge switches (is that a brand? sorry for not knowing) and ruckus wifi. Do you mind all that potentially being 3 different applications to monitor and deploy? it seems that everyone agree Ruckus wifi is superior. i think @msgreenfmentioned earlier he had araknis for switching (i assume for the router as well) and ruckus wifi (i could be mistaken) so I am guessing the need for a single pane is outweighed by the better performance of Ruckus wifi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 7 minutes ago, therockhr said: You mentioned earlier you did microtik router, edge switches (is that a brand? sorry for not knowing) and ruckus wifi. Do you mind all that potentially being 3 different applications to monitor and deploy? it seems that everyone agree Ruckus wifi is superior. i think @msgreenfmentioned earlier he had araknis for switching (i assume for the router as well) and ruckus wifi (i could be mistaken) so I am guessing the need for a single pane is outweighed by the better performance of Ruckus wifi. Performance > single pane therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Lowe Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 We primarily install Araknis, Pakedge, or eero depending on the budget. Anything with C4 eero is used as a last resort and is often in bridge mode and we have a dedicated router and switch for the system if we can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew luecke Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 3 hours ago, therockhr said: What is the difference between Ruckus (commscope?) and Access Networks? Basically support. Since access networks is owned by Snap, the focus is more oriented that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 7 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said: Basically support. Since access networks is owned by Snap, the focus is more oriented that way. Snap owns access networks too?! I am going to guess Pakedge is on the chopping block or at least merging into Araknis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 30 minutes ago, therockhr said: Snap owns access networks too?! I am going to guess Pakedge is on the chopping block or at least merging into Araknis. Have you seen any new Pakedge gear in the last 3 years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 6, 2023 Author Share Posted March 6, 2023 10 minutes ago, msgreenf said: Have you seen any new Pakedge gear in the last 3 years? no but I cant say i have paid much attention to pakedge. i just remember Control4 buying them before Snap. I thought at the time that was a good move for Control4 and probably still would be if they were still stand alone. Now its redundant. does arkanis and access networks use OVRC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 3 hours ago, therockhr said: You mentioned earlier you did microtik router, edge switches (is that a brand? sorry for not knowing) and ruckus wifi. Do you mind all that potentially being 3 different applications to monitor and deploy? it seems that everyone agree Ruckus wifi is superior. i think @msgreenfmentioned earlier he had araknis for switching (i assume for the router as well) and ruckus wifi (i could be mistaken) so I am guessing the need for a single pane is outweighed by the better performance of Ruckus wifi. I have VPN’s to all my networks so different branding doesn’t bother me, nor the need for OVRC. Much faster to open a VPN and log directly into the product vs. opening OVRC and having limited connectivity, where I’ll most likely have to log directly in anyways. Ruckus Unleashed offers remote management as well using their app. Edge is the non-UniFi brand for Ubiquiti. Edge is just like any other L2/L3 switch and configuration isn’t handcuffed like UniFi. Araknis switches aren’t bad, they do work and are simple to configure, but I find them to be way overpriced. therockhr and oosername 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oosername Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 On 3/4/2023 at 7:46 PM, Andrew luecke said: Most Vendors these days consider L2 switches to be considered managed imho. Not fully managed, but definitely not unmanaged. https://www.tp-link.com/us/business-networking/managed-switch/tl-sg5428/https://www.snapav.com/wcsstore/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/attachments/documents/MediaDistribution/ManualsAndGuides/B-900-MoIP-InstallSetup Guide 190830_1230.pdf In practice, L3 doesn't really benefit most residential installs (and even SMB installs don't benefit). But, the definition doesn't really matter IMHO (each to their own.. At times its a grey area even. ).. The important thing imho, is it has an IP, parameters can be changed and ports have some kind of control. I think we need to tighten up our definitions here a little bit. All switches operate at Layer 2 using MAC Addresses. A Layer 3 Switch, works on both Layer 2 and Layer 3. Layer 3 of course is Routing. L3 Switches work with IP Addresses themselves. A L3 Switch isn't doing anything different with L2 traffic than a L2 managed switch does. That's why Araknis uses the same manual for the L2 210 and the L3 310. Or they're just lazy. A Managed L2 Switch then, is exactly that. There are no Almost-Managed L2 Switches. Some have better or worse features of course. The advantage to L3 is speed. There are some things you can do with L2 of course. Although if you're router --> managed switch --> unmanaged, there's only so much you can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew luecke Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 3 minutes ago, oosername said: I think we need to tighten up our definitions here a little bit. All switches operate at Layer 2 using MAC Addresses. A Layer 3 Switch, works on both Layer 2 and Layer 3. Layer 3 of course is Routing. L3 Switches work with IP Addresses themselves. A L3 Switch isn't doing anything different with L2 traffic than a L2 managed switch does. That's why Araknis uses the same manual for the L2 210 and the L3 310. Or they're just lazy. A Managed L2 Switch then, is exactly that. There are no Almost-Managed L2 Switches. Some have better or worse features of course. The advantage to L3 is speed. There are some things you can do with L2 of course. Although if you're router --> managed switch --> unmanaged, there's only so much you can do. Yes sorry.. When I say L2, I mean L2 with some kind of interface to configure the behaviour of the switch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oosername Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 On 3/4/2023 at 8:51 PM, therockhr said: @Andrew luecke and @Cyknight thanks for the responses. any recommendations on a good websmart switch then? TP-Link? First, don't call it a "websmart switch." That's not actually a thing. TP-Link's new Jetstream switches look pretty sexy. If you want to future-proof yourself a bit, the TL-SG3210XHP-M2, has (2) 10GE SFP+ and (8) 2.5Gbps POE+ ports. They don't make a larger switch with 2.5's yet. MicroTik has a wide selection of switches if you're comfortable with a more extensive and less simplistic interface. They're pretty famous with us nerds for their software-based routers. My personal favorite is a used Cisco or Aruba 48-Port POE for $60. You could charge a car with their POE budgets. But a lot of the config is done in CLI. There is a ton of help on how to set them up. Or don't. Just plug them in and they'll work too. Or a Dell Enterprise switch. If you want something that isn't as involved as an enterprise product, but not as basic as a Best Buy model, Netgear makes some pretty good layered switches with accessible UI/UX. Have fun with it! therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 6, 2023 Share Posted March 6, 2023 2 minutes ago, oosername said: First, don't call it a "websmart switch." That's not actually a thing. https://bfy.tw/TtJzhttps://bfy.tw/TtJzhttps://bfy.tw/TtJz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 Does Ruckus need a dealer to install? I am thinking about just getting one and adding it to my system and turning the wifi off on my all in one router as a first step to upgrading my network. i actually use an old airport extreme (i know some will laugh but it has just worked for years and I have never had any issues with C4 or anything like i see others talk about but it is getting ancient now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted March 8, 2023 Share Posted March 8, 2023 No it doesn't. Happy to price out an AP for you Andrew luecke 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 8, 2023 Author Share Posted March 8, 2023 18 minutes ago, msgreenf said: No it doesn't. Happy to price out an AP for you PM sent msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oosername Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 On 3/6/2023 at 3:51 PM, Cyknight said: https://bfy.tw/TtJzhttps://bfy.tw/TtJzhttps://bfy.tw/TtJz That certain consumer manufacturers of networking equipment are using the words, "Websmart" or "Web Smart," in their marketing, doesn't mean that's actually a thing. If D-Link calls a router, a Web 2.0 Router or a Deep Web-capable Router, that's still not a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted March 14, 2023 Author Share Posted March 14, 2023 Anyone using edgerouter x and edge switch from ubiquiti? I see lots of people mention unifi but not always those products. Those seem more like what I want since I don’t want all the features of the UDM Pro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 2 hours ago, therockhr said: Anyone using edgerouter x and edge switch from ubiquiti? I see lots of people mention unifi but not always those products. Those seem more like what I want since I don’t want all the features of the UDM Pro. I used to when the Edgerouter first came out, then found Mikrotik. Apparently all edge equipment can be pulled into the UniFi ecosystem. I have a customer that has done that. Nothing wrong with them at all. The main difference is you’ll configure it through a web interface vs. having UniFi Cloud Key set it up. therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.