Integrators; Whats your go to "standard" network setup?

[therockhr]

Yeah its another "what network hardware are you using" question.

Integrators, what is your standard or "go to" network hardware for a typical ~3000 sq ft house spread of 2 stories (think something from Toll Brothers)? What is your router->switch->wireless AP hardware solution? I know there are lots of variables at play but think of a typical setup for a family of 4 or 5.

[Gary Leeds UK]

Wireless AP is ruckus ~ had it now for over a year Zero issues 

[lippavisual]

Mikrotik router- Edge Switches- Ruckus Wifi, is our preferred combo and can handle anything network related.

Unifi or Eero for budget conscious/network tinkerer.  However, we do not warranty/guarantee anything after customer testing and sign-off.  Updates are all performed via customer and any network related service call is billable.

[therockhr]

10 minutes ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

Wireless AP is ruckus ~ had it now for over a year Zero issues 

what router and switches do you use?

[Andrew luecke]

Stuff which I would be reluctant to go near:

• Orbi. This 100% has issues with many things. I'm happy to work with Netgear on fixing issues with them, as it would save us lots of support
• Omada, due to possible issues with Halo. 
• Most cheap consumer all-in-one routers. The wireless on these things should always be turned off (it never works well, and roaming in my experience is always broken). It does not matter if its an enterprise Watchguard Router, or a cheap Netgear, they're generally all the same. Do one thing, and do it well..  
• Large homes with an unmanaged core network switch. These always turn into a disaster. They should be managed

 

Expected Architecture

• Router (with Wifi disabled and only connection to managed switch) --> Managed Network Switch -> Everything else. Yes it increases the price, but also fixes so many issues
• Anywhere the connection needs splitting, should have a dedicated network switch, and shouldn't daisy chain off an AP's second port

 

Most installs

• Unifi and UDM Pro
• Or Araknis (especially if I feel additional support may be required). If customer can afford, Access Networks is a huge step up (and recommended instead)
• Core network switch is ALWAYS managed. Ideally, other switches are all managed too (with STP). Core network switch should have POE, and any AP's should be using POE (so they can be easily rebooted). Most issues we had in the past were caused by AP's which were powered from other locations, so rebooting the rack didn't actually fully reboot the network (which even caused IP Conflicts). 

 

High End Installs

• Given the context is control4, I would probably just use Access Networks (they have IPS capable routers and proper AP's these days).
• If it's a multi-million dollar home, it's not just about wifi bandwidth, its also about security, and proper network appliances have WIPS and other features.
• They should also actively support their firmware (whereas, unfortunately, unifi has no direct firmware support, which may be an issue long term)
• All network switches managed, core switch NEEDS POE. Ideally the core switch is L3. 
• All AP's NEED POE 
• The home should be prewired with fibre too (but, the fibre cable simply needs to exist, not necessarily have sockets / plugs on it)
• Most installers would charge more if another "IT guy" was handling the network (because they always make things difficult, and in one case, even totally reconfigured the network and the company I was working with was expected to work for free to fix everything (it ended up in court) 

Satellite offices  

• In general, you should probably be using the same kind of router as the head office (products like Watchguard recommend this). 
• The head office IT should also set it up, and I would probably charge per hour because it greatly increases the risk of install  

[Cyknight]

Andrew's draw-up is excellent, and more or less we follow the same lines with a few notes:

We don't (usually) provide Ubiquiti ourselves (on full installs) due to the support chain. While our other programmers are well trained in networking, I've enough to do without being their end of line support for ubiquiti for jobs.

Depending on system size, we may use use an Araknis 210 switch vs a fully managed switch as it still allows easy control over PoE ports.

A lot of quotes for us these days use Araknis. Contrary to what seems popular belief on here, it has nothing to do with margins, it's about supply chain and support chain, both of which are fast, reliable and consistent.

Add a relatively simple and consistent interface, easy central (remote) management and it's become hard to argue against using them in a huge range of setups.

There are always exceptions of course - putting in a 3xx series router and  24 port POE managed switch is a bit silly if all you're doing is a media room setup in a home, and if you're doing a multi-building compound or a 30000sqf home you're going to do a fully customized setup that's done meticulously as a fully separate quote anyway.

[Elvis]

Why the managed switches? What are you managing? In a single family home as the OP prescribed, what is that managed switch doing for you?

[cnicholson]

23 minutes ago, Elvis said:

Why the managed switches? What are you managing? In a single family home as the OP prescribed, what is that managed switch doing for you?

Obviously, "managed" can mean a lot of things, but even the basic ability to view full topology and paths from WAN through switches (on port by port basis) to endpoints is super helpful in monitoring and diagnosing problems.  Manage WAP settings, VLANs, security settings, performance, etc., etc.   Since so much is POE these days, I also frequently reboot individual glitchy devices via POE power cycle.

Once everything is stable and you stop tinkering, then you probably won't use many of these things on a daily basis.   So if you don't care about security or VLANs, you could make an argument for using unmanaged gear for the very simplest installs that never have any network issues.  In my last house, I used plug-and-play unmanaged stuff and kinda didn't know what I was missing.  I would feel blind and helpless to have to go back to that.

[Cyknight]

23 minutes ago, Elvis said:

Why the managed switches? What are you managing? In a single family home as the OP prescribed, what is that managed switch doing for you?

Heh, I'm seriously not intending to be teaching advanced networking here but I'll elaborate a bit.

To be clear, unless the installer/programmer/dealer is able to properly manage it, a (good) unmanaged switch is the right option. Something like the Araknis 210 series I mentioned is great because it's essentially not 'managed' but allows certain port/PoE controls to exists still (and don't get stuck on me using Araknis as an example, there are others that will do this well too - this is not ment as a sales pitch for ANY brand). A poorly set managed switch is a nightmare, so in that case an unmanaged switch is better.

Just want to insert here that if I'm talking about a managed switch, I'm talking about Layer3 managed switches, not Layer2 switches with a minor management interface or websmart style switches. I consider those 'unmanaged switches' - pure 'basic' (autonegotiate) switches (this is what a lot of consumer switches are) shouldn't be used at all really, unless perhaps it's as a local switch to connect local devices like a computer plus a network printer, connect multiple gaming consoles (that would only be used on at a time anyway) or perhaps behind a TV to connect the TV itself an a local streaming box if there's no wires available to go direct.

Of course, I believe that at a dealer level at least someone should know how to properly use a managed switch.... (at the risk of this sounding as a pitch again for Araknis, which it isn't as such) and as Snap now provides advanced support and pre-configurations that are more geared to such setups (not just C4, it works for competing brands as well) it makes it THAT much easier for them to do so. This is why I've been saying on other threads that I can't completely disagree with the standpoint that many dealers do take that they need to provide the networking and supply their preferred gear.  I don't' AGREE with it, as I believe there should exist the ability to handle any 'good' networking gear, but I understand the reasoning - and if it gets them to use more appropriate gear (vs picking up consumer quality stuff) BECAUSE they are supported, well that's a positive development in my book.

 

Back on track, even an average home of about 3k sqf (that's a common enough single detached house size here -perhaps more sqf/person than the overall average in the region, but wouldn't stand out at all in most neighbourhoods- where I live now, but I'm well aware that in many places a 3000sqf/280sqm home would be considered huge and would stick out like a sore thumb in most places) these days ,with a family of 5, has a LOT of devices running on a network. Regardless of if it's integrated to the system or not, there are likely (doorbell) cameras, gaming devices, laptops/computers, phones and tablets, media streaming devices, more and more 'cable' providers use networking vs traditional coax etc, smart thermostats, smart security/alarm systems, hubs for lighting systems or wifi bulbs/outlets, internet connected appliances, wifi connected speakers - you name it.

A managed switch in such a scenario allows advanced and faster vlan management, segregated traffic management, specific settings to set and/or filter things like multi-cast, spanning tree and more.

Understand that Control4 AS SUCH usually doesn't require this even in larger setups - but a house filled with a lot of different devices certainly benefits from such a setup.

The most common (or perhaps vocal) complaint on cost is about 'over priced' networking setups. Yet the most common complaint I see on system function end up going back to poor/inappropriate network setups. I'm well aware of the cliche of claiming a network is at fault for all problems, but while generally inaccurate, cliches generally exists because they are rooted in truth, though overstated.

 

I would RECOMMEND a dealer (as a business, not the individual, or every individual or even every installer/programmer) knows their networking well, and knows how to use a managed switch and thus incorporates it: that doesn't mean it's a hard requirement as such.

The OP question is what other's go-to gear/setup is (I personally care less about the gear as such, but that much more about the setup/layout/topology) - so that's what Andrew answered and I tagged on to.

 

[Elvis]

Excellent @Cyknight—thank you for taking the time to answer so thoroughly. I appreciate it. 

[Gary Leeds UK]

On 3/1/2023 at 8:38 PM, therockhr said:

what router and switches do you use?

We have an unmanaged netgear switch  ~ router is the standard one supplied by the ISP 

All wireless traffic goes though the Ruckus 

[Andrew luecke]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:56 AM, Elvis said:

Why the managed switches? What are you managing? In a single family home as the OP prescribed, what is that managed switch doing for you?

Thats a common question.

Firstly, when I say managed, I also include smart switches (smart switches are generally fine unless you're doing MOIP, or high end installs where you want L3)

• The ability to monitor and prevent problems proactively is everything in a home automation environment. Without it, you can barely even identify if the network is even connected.
• You also can't tell how much of the network is operational, or where the network is failing. If a customer tells me their wireless isn't working properly, with a dumb switch, it could be anything. With a smart switch, I can almost isolate it down instantly to the AP or something else.  
• With mesh points, its even worse.. It generally is EVERYTHING
• In the overall scheme of things, it's only a bit more expensive. The smaller the home, the smaller the switch required too (scaling the price with size). For the added cost of an extra automated light, you can get a much better network backbone. 
• In Ubiquiti's case, they sell Managed/Smart switches only these days.
• Some products like Sonos realistically require a smart switch (as they rely on STP). Without it, you can get network loops.
• They offer proactive protection. STP blocks network loops. And many smart switches have things like DHCP guarding. With a Smart switch and managed equipment, you can mostly safeguard the network (in fact, if you REALLY wanted to, with STATIC ARP, you actually could entirely safeguard it). 
• Without a smart switch, it is difficult to identify there is a problem on their side. They could say their internet is unstable, but you have no way of knowing if its network or router related. 
• In another case, I blew hours of time because a customer had a unmanaged switch.. At the end, I pulled out their 2 unmanaged switches, popped in 2 managed switches, and it fixed the problem instantly thanks to STP. It can actually end up cheaper 

As a comparison, lets use cars. Every car these days has a diagnostics OBD2 port and diagnostics systems. You have engine lights and such to warn you when flags are triggered in OBD2, and then a technician can simply plug into it to determine what the cause is. There might not even be any obvious signals that there is a fault. And, even if you do see some minor side effects (such as vibration), as a mechanic, you'd have no idea if it's the road (not an issue), or within the car. The mechanic would need to start pulling stuff apart

Or, its the difference between a doctor identifying an issue without having access to X-Rays / MRI and just looking

With an unmanaged switch, you're basically driving around without any diagnostics and warning indicators or oil temperature. 

 

The facts are, they don't cost much extra, and even a smart switch with default settings these days will generally perform as well as unmanaged, or better.  The difference is, when there is an issue with an unmanaged switch, a lot of guarantees you have regarding the network, are not enforced, and some issues which takes 5 mins to identify and fix on managed/smart, you can never be 100% sure of on unmanaged.    Furthermore, if the switch supports OVRC, your installer can even provide easy means to reboot equipment and troubleshoot via OVRC Home. 

In fact, when I come across a home which is using a totally unmanaged switch still, I generally assume there are things wrong with the network personally and charge per hour (same if they're using an all-in-one for everything).  

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, Andrew luecke said:

Thats a common question.

Firstly, when I say managed, I also include smart switches (smart switches are generally fine unless you're doing MOIP, or high end installs where you want L3)

• The ability to monitor and prevent problems proactively is everything in a home automation environment. Without it, you can barely even identify if the network is even connected.
• You also can't tell how much of the network is operational, or where the network is failing. If a customer tells me their wireless isn't working properly, with a dumb switch, it could be anything. With a smart switch, I can almost isolate it down instantly to the AP or something else.  
• With mesh points, its even worse.. It generally is EVERYTHING
• In the overall scheme of things, it's only a bit more expensive. The smaller the home, the smaller the switch required too (scaling the price with size). For the added cost of an extra automated light, you can get a much better network backbone. 
• In Ubiquiti's case, they sell Managed/Smart switches only these days.
• Some products like Sonos realistically require a smart switch (as they rely on STP). Without it, you can get network loops.
• They offer proactive protection. STP blocks network loops. And many smart switches have things like DHCP guarding. With a Smart switch and managed equipment, you can mostly safeguard the network (in fact, if you REALLY wanted to, with STATIC ARP, you actually could entirely safeguard it). 
• Without a smart switch, it is difficult to identify there is a problem on their side. They could say their internet is unstable, but you have no way of knowing if its network or router related. 
• In another case, I blew hours of time because a customer had a unmanaged switch.. At the end, I pulled out their 2 unmanaged switches, popped in 2 managed switches, and it fixed the problem instantly thanks to STP. It can actually end up cheaper 

As a comparison, lets use cars. Every car these days has a diagnostics OBD2 port and diagnostics systems. You have engine lights and such to warn you when flags are triggered in OBD2, and then a technician can simply plug into it to determine what the cause is. There might not even be any obvious signals that there is a fault. And, even if you do see some minor side effects (such as vibration), as a mechanic, you'd have no idea if it's the road (not an issue), or within the car. The mechanic would need to start pulling stuff apart

Or, its the difference between a doctor identifying an issue without having access to X-Rays / MRI and just looking

With an unmanaged switch, you're basically driving around without any diagnostics and warning indicators or oil temperature. 

 

The facts are, they don't cost much extra, and even a smart switch with default settings these days will generally perform as well as unmanaged, or better.  The difference is, when there is an issue with an unmanaged switch, a lot of guarantees you have regarding the network, are not enforced, and some issues which takes 5 mins to identify and fix on managed/smart, you can never be 100% sure of on unmanaged.    Furthermore, if the switch supports OVRC, your installer can even provide easy means to reboot equipment and troubleshoot via OVRC Home. 

In fact, when I come across a home which is using a totally unmanaged switch still, I generally assume there are things wrong with the network personally and charge per hour (same if they're using an all-in-one for everything).  

Can you Give some examples of what you consider an unmanaged switch and a managed switch?

when I think of a managed switch I think of like commercial Cisco 2950 (I know that is probably ancient now). 
 

I would like to find a switch where I could reboot POE ports, check port connectivity/speed and view stats on a port. I don’t need to do any vlan or qos stuff. 

[Cyknight]

13 minutes ago, therockhr said:

Can you Give some examples of what you consider an unmanaged switch and a managed switch?

He's pretty clear - he considers Layer2 and Layer3 including Websmart switches managed

I consider only Layer3 switches truly managed, and Websmart style switches acceptable 'unmanaged' switches.

Arguably the same thing.

So in your case, a switch that would give you those basic controls and info would be a 'websmart' switch.

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

Can you Give some examples of what you consider an unmanaged switch and a managed switch?

when I think of a managed switch I think of like commercial Cisco 2950 (I know that is probably ancient now). 
 

I would like to find a switch where I could reboot POE ports, check port connectivity/speed and view stats on a port. I don’t need to do any vlan or qos stuff. 

An unmanaged switch has no means to log into and configure things, and doesn't have a network IP. So, it is given default settings which can't be changed unless it has a physical DIP switch on it (DGS-1024 has 3-4 dip switches but is unmanaged). Imho, even if it has a console port (and no IP), I would generally consider it managed (as it CAN be configured via software) 

https://www.tp-link.com/au/business-networking/unmanaged-switch/

Basically, what you get out of the box is it. 

 

A managed switch imho is pretty much any switch which has its own IP which allows you to log in via web interface, controller software, console/rs232 or SSH. Unifi switches, Omada, or even more traditional non-cloud based like the DLINK DGS-1210 series

A managed/smart switch doesn't necessarily have to have a lot of settings, but these days, you'd be hard pressed finding a smart switch or managed switch without settings such as STP. 

Then you get 2 extra levels.. Basic Smart switches, and L3 switches. Most residential (and many businesses) don't require L3. But, there are applications in AV installs where you might want it (MOIP as an example, at a minimum because apparently the backplane on most L3 switches is better).   

[Andrew luecke]

Also, these days, all smart switches I've seen operate per port, rather than switch wide for configuration too.. Even most cheap ones these days have fairly advanced feature sets (including STP and other things) 

[Andrew luecke]

9 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

He's pretty clear - he considers Layer2 and Layer3 including Websmart switches managed

I consider only Layer3 switches truly managed, and Websmart style switches acceptable 'unmanaged' switches.

Arguably the same thing.

So in your case, a switch that would give you those basic controls and info would be a 'websmart' switch.

Most Vendors these days consider L2 switches to be considered managed imho. Not fully managed, but definitely not unmanaged.

https://www.tp-link.com/us/business-networking/managed-switch/tl-sg5428/
https://www.snapav.com/wcsstore/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/attachments/documents/MediaDistribution/ManualsAndGuides/B-900-MoIP-InstallSetup Guide 190830_1230.pdf

In practice, L3 doesn't really benefit most residential installs (and even SMB installs don't benefit).

But, the definition doesn't really matter IMHO (each to their own.. At times its a grey area even. ).. The important thing imho, is it has an IP, parameters can be changed and ports have some kind of control. 

[Andrew luecke]

Also, VLAN and QOS stuff is generally even built into cheaper Smart switches these days (its available on almost all of Unifi's switches). Also, I wouldn't get anything that doesn't have STP at a minimum. You won't really be saving much money honestly

[therockhr]

@Andrew luecke and @Cyknight thanks for the responses.

any recommendations on a good websmart switch then? TP-Link?

[Andrew luecke]

6 minutes ago, therockhr said:

@Andrew luecke and @Cyknight thanks for the responses.

any recommendations on a good websmart switch then? TP-Link?

When I was an installer, I used Ubiquiti everything (as it could all be managed via one interface then). I always used POE switches (it makes a big difference to cleanliness and management. And devices like the Core processors have POE support too)

If you want official support, araknis for lower end, or Access Networks for high end. 

If you don't want central management, I've used both TPLink and Dlink DGS in the past, but, you should be looking at central management these days honestly.  

I used to recommend Omada as an alternative to Unifi, but, I've given the potential risks with Halo, I no longer do. That being said, I've used TPLink unmanaged switches in a commercial job (we used 30 of them), and they were the most solid thing on the job (there were so many issues on that site). However, keep in mind, the commercial installation wasn't an AV install (AV has different requirements), and those switches on that site are slowly being replaced with Unifi too

 

[Cyknight]

15 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Most Vendors these days consider L2 switches to be considered managed imho. Not fully managed, but definitely not unmanaged.

Yep, I'm probably showing my (networking) age in some of these definitions.

 

15 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

The important thing imho, is it has an IP, parameters can be changed and ports have some kind of control. 

Can't disagree there.

15 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

In practice, L3 doesn't really benefit most residential installs (and even SMB installs don't benefit).

Well, a do disagree a bit here, that said - the chances of doing damage with a wrong setup is probably higher than chances of benefiting a great deal.

As I said before - OP question was what I PREFER - not what I recommend in general terms, or advise a 'random' setups to have/ people to use I suppose, and why I already stated it isn't a hard requirement.

[zaphod]

How do you guys deal with ISPs where they want you to use their router to distribute IPTV via the LAN through the house? 

[Midnight1982]

22 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Thats a common question.

Firstly, when I say managed, I also include smart switches (smart switches are generally fine unless you're doing MOIP, or high end installs where you want L3)

• The ability to monitor and prevent problems proactively is everything in a home automation environment. Without it, you can barely even identify if the network is even connected.
• You also can't tell how much of the network is operational, or where the network is failing. If a customer tells me their wireless isn't working properly, with a dumb switch, it could be anything. With a smart switch, I can almost isolate it down instantly to the AP or something else.  
• With mesh points, its even worse.. It generally is EVERYTHING
• In the overall scheme of things, it's only a bit more expensive. The smaller the home, the smaller the switch required too (scaling the price with size). For the added cost of an extra automated light, you can get a much better network backbone. 
• In Ubiquiti's case, they sell Managed/Smart switches only these days.
• Some products like Sonos realistically require a smart switch (as they rely on STP). Without it, you can get network loops.
• They offer proactive protection. STP blocks network loops. And many smart switches have things like DHCP guarding. With a Smart switch and managed equipment, you can mostly safeguard the network (in fact, if you REALLY wanted to, with STATIC ARP, you actually could entirely safeguard it). 
• Without a smart switch, it is difficult to identify there is a problem on their side. They could say their internet is unstable, but you have no way of knowing if its network or router related. 
• In another case, I blew hours of time because a customer had a unmanaged switch.. At the end, I pulled out their 2 unmanaged switches, popped in 2 managed switches, and it fixed the problem instantly thanks to STP. It can actually end up cheaper 

As a comparison, lets use cars. Every car these days has a diagnostics OBD2 port and diagnostics systems. You have engine lights and such to warn you when flags are triggered in OBD2, and then a technician can simply plug into it to determine what the cause is. There might not even be any obvious signals that there is a fault. And, even if you do see some minor side effects (such as vibration), as a mechanic, you'd have no idea if it's the road (not an issue), or within the car. The mechanic would need to start pulling stuff apart

Or, its the difference between a doctor identifying an issue without having access to X-Rays / MRI and just looking

With an unmanaged switch, you're basically driving around without any diagnostics and warning indicators or oil temperature. 

 

The facts are, they don't cost much extra, and even a smart switch with default settings these days will generally perform as well as unmanaged, or better.  The difference is, when there is an issue with an unmanaged switch, a lot of guarantees you have regarding the network, are not enforced, and some issues which takes 5 mins to identify and fix on managed/smart, you can never be 100% sure of on unmanaged.    Furthermore, if the switch supports OVRC, your installer can even provide easy means to reboot equipment and troubleshoot via OVRC Home. 

In fact, when I come across a home which is using a totally unmanaged switch still, I generally assume there are things wrong with the network personally and charge per hour (same if they're using an all-in-one for everything).  

Telstra Modem and jaycar switch with multiple 5 Port switches around the place

[Andrew luecke]

16 minutes ago, Midnight1982 said:

Telstra Modem and jaycar switch with multiple 5 Port switches around the place

Yeah.. The technicolor modems sometimes lose settings I find.. Either customers are lying to me, or Telstra sometimes pushes changes on their side 

[Midnight1982]

3 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Yeah.. The technicolor modems sometimes lose settings I find.. Either customers are lying to me, or Telstra sometimes pushes changes on their side 

the PTC special