HDCP 1.4 and 2.2 - can someone explain in plain english

[eggzlot]

I need some new video encoders for my Video Storm system, and the 1.4 encoders can be had for ~150 for 1 channel up to $450 for 4 channels of 4k 30fps HDCP 1.4 specs.  If I want something with 60 FPS and/or HDCP 2.2 its about $500 PER Channel.

I am fairly confident my mid 40 year old eyes won't know the difference between 30 vs 60 fps....I am only getting 4k tvs in the house as my older 1080p ones die.  And most of the content is going to be off cable boxes with very little 4k content, though I may share a Roku device for apps around the house and that is in 4k

Anything preventing me from getting the cheaper 1.4 models and some sort of 2.2 > 1.4 down converter?  What do I lose?  When I look online its a lot about PS5, or tons of fancy graphs with big words, not discussions about whole home TV distribution (though I know the basic concepts are kind of the same)

@videostorm or others, any ideas?

[RAV]

 

[RAV]

Higher spec sources will work with lower spec inputs, you just don't get the extra stuff that's part of the higher spec.

 

[eggzlot]

7 minutes ago, RAV said:

Higher spec sources will work with lower spec inputs, you just don't get the extra stuff that's part of the higher spec.

 

Very helpful - thanks!  where it says HDMI version, arent the versions of HDMI different than HDCP?

What I have noticed, when using the older Video Storm VTX Boards (1080p - forget the HDCP standard) the cable boxes work fine minus the 4k channels, whereas the Roku never worked, even putting it down to 1080p so I just got a JTech 2.2 > 1.4 and it works, but not 4k content.  I figured the JTech would still allow 4k to pass, maybe I need to re-review how I set it all up.

the VTX is 10 years old and I can tell its on the way out, so looking to make some replacement plans in advance so this is helpful.

[RAV]

HDCP is copy protection.
It mostly comes in 2 flavors, and since it can also be used in display port jacks and other transport media, it's not really tied to corresponding HDMI version specs.
They shouldn't have used similar numbers because it certainly causes confusion.

HDCP 1.4 for 1080
HDCP 2.2 for 4K
HDCP 2.3 for 8K (newest)

 

[eggzlot]

13 minutes ago, RAV said:

HDCP is copy protection.
It mostly comes in 2 flavors, and since it can also be used in display port jacks and other transport media, it's not really tied to corresponding HDMI version specs.
They shouldn't have used similar numbers because it certainly causes confusion.

HDCP 1.4 for 1080
HDCP 2.2 for 4K
HDCP 2.3 for 8K

 

ok thanks

so if my cable box is HDCP 2.2 (which it is) and my encoder is 1.4 with 4k 30 support, I could get one of those 2.2 > 1.4 things by JTech or someone and watch 4k content just without some of the features mentioned above?  Same for my Roku?

[RAV]

Or put simpler, ports/hardware are HDCP spec'd and cables are HDMI spec'd.

[RAV]

11 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

ok thanks

so if my cable box is HDCP 2.2 (which it is) and my encoder is 1.4 with 4k 30 support, I could get one of those 2.2 > 1.4 things by JTech or someone and watch 4k content just without some of the features mentioned above?  Same for my Roku?

Yes. the "things" (several vendors) provide the HDCP 2.2 key and EDID to the source device that it can't get from the 1.4 port that you're trying to connect to.

[RAV]

Over simplification of HDMI handshake:

TV - Turns on and sends a 5v signal down the HDMI cable, anybody home? (Hot Plug)
Source - Yes, who are you?
TV - I'm a TV and have these audio and resolution specs (EDID)
Source - Here's an image can you see it?
TV - Yes, here's my lock (HDCP)
Source - Here's my key
Video

So the HDMI interface box is playing the part of the best friend of both man in the middle: HDCP 1.4 conversation with the TV and HDCP 2.2 conversation with the source.

[eggzlot]

29 minutes ago, RAV said:

HDCP is copy protection.
It mostly comes in 2 flavors, and since it can also be used in display port jacks and other transport media, it's not really tied to corresponding HDMI version specs.
They shouldn't have used similar numbers because it certainly causes confusion.

HDCP 1.4 for 1080
HDCP 2.2 for 4K
HDCP 2.3 for 8K (newest)

 

ok thanks

I'll probably pick up some stuff on Amazon eventually and give it a go.  30 day return policy if it doesnt pan out. 

[Cyknight]

25 minutes ago, RAV said:

is playing the part of the best friend of both man in the middle

LOL I like that description. I would more think along the line of the negotiator between two disputing parties in a bad divorce

[videostorm]

Getting the 4Kp60 HDCP 2.2 encoders is going to be the best way to go.  It always works (gives you 4K) regardless of the source.

4Kp30 HDCP 1.4  with a converter in the middle can work (4Kp30 delivered), but it is really source and convertor dependent.  No harm in trying of course.

That said, for most content the 4K encoders aren't worth the price premium over the 1080p ones.

[tmj4]

2 hours ago, RAV said:

Higher spec sources will work with lower spec inputs, you just don't get the extra stuff that's part of the higher spec.

 

It's also worth noting that there may be higher spec features available outside the spec in lower spec (DV and eARC available in 2.0, for example). Just because something exists as part of a spec doesn't mean it can't exist outside of it. Or better said: You can have eARC without HDMI 2.1. But you can't have HDMI 2.1 without eARC.

[eggzlot]

11 minutes ago, videostorm said:

Getting the 4Kp60 HDCP 2.2 encoders is going to be the best way to go.  It always works (gives you 4K) regardless of the source.

4Kp30 HDCP 1.4  with a converter in the middle can work (4Kp30 delivered), but it is really source and convertor dependent.  No harm in trying of course.

That said, for most content the 4K encoders aren't worth the price premium over the 1080p ones.

thats where I am at.  Why spend $500 for 1 channel of HDCP 2.2 when I can get 4 channels for ~$450 at HDCP 1.4 and a few converters in the middle.  This isn't for a 100'' theater room/projector but sharing cable boxes, Blu Ray, C4 OSD and a Roku around the house.  Where we watch 90% of the TV (living room) we are using the Apps on the sony TV anyways (not the centralized Roku), so the shared Roku is really if we want to share streaming content around the house (Rarely) or offer apps in our bedroom, 2 guest rooms and our work offices (makes it easier to manage in 1 place vs apps on each TV)

[eggzlot]

On 10/10/2023 at 1:40 PM, videostorm said:

Getting the 4Kp60 HDCP 2.2 encoders is going to be the best way to go.  It always works (gives you 4K) regardless of the source.

4Kp30 HDCP 1.4  with a converter in the middle can work (4Kp30 delivered), but it is really source and convertor dependent.  No harm in trying of course.

That said, for most content the 4K encoders aren't worth the price premium over the 1080p ones.

I finally need to move, my VTX (10 years old not complaining) just needs constant reboots.

Any major diff between URay or Kunuomagic and H264 vs H265.  Both have 4 channel models with 1.4 (2 at 4k, 2 at 1080p) and both have a H264 or a H264&265 model and prices are close.  Any recommendation on brand and feature w the 264 vs 265 for use in Netplay?

[videostorm]

4 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I finally need to move, my VTX (10 years old not complaining) just needs constant reboots.

Any major diff between URay or Kunuomagic and H264 vs H265.  Both have 4 channel models with 1.4 (2 at 4k, 2 at 1080p) and both have a H264 or a H264&265 model and prices are close.  Any recommendation on brand and feature w the 264 vs 265 for use in Netplay?

Use either the Kunuomagic or the new Shineco 4kp60, both are HDCP 2.2 and support both h264 and h265.  Email us for the purchase contacts on these.

In setup, use h265 unless you still have VRX020/10s in the system.  If so, use h264.

[eggzlot]

19 minutes ago, videostorm said:

Use either the Kunuomagic or the new Shineco 4kp60, both are HDCP 2.2 and support both h264 and h265.  Email us for the purchase contacts on these.

In setup, use h265 unless you still have VRX020/10s in the system.  If so, use h264.

I am only using a VRX020 as the manager of the system, all end points are either Sony TVs or AFT/Shields.

I won't use Shineco products, I have one of their other models and its awful.  I need to have it set to reboot 2x a week and the picture quality leaves something to be desired.  My installer had some Shineco products too and he wasn't thrilled with them.  That is why I hestiate on Kunuomagic and I was leaning towards Uray

I will email you regardless - thanks!

Edited November 3, 2023 by eggzlot

[videostorm]

20 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

I am only using a VRX020 as the manager of the system, all end points are either Sony TVs or AFT/Shields.

I won't use Shineco products, I have one of their other models and its awful.  I need to have it set to reboot 2x a week and the picture quality leaves something to be desired.  My installer had some Shineco products too and he wasn't thrilled with them.  That is why I hestiate on Kunuomagic and I was leaning towards Uray

I will email you regardless - thanks!

Ok, in this case setup the Kunuomagic for h265 at 38Mbps  (main stream).  It will look very good.

[eggzlot]

9 minutes ago, videostorm said:

Ok, in this case setup the Kunuomagic for h265 at 38Mbps  (main stream).  It will look very good.

ok sounds good - thanks.  I emailed you the two devices I am comparing (Uray vs Kunuo)

Are you referencing the HDCP 2.2 Kunuo?  Please see the links I emailed and let me know your thoughts when you can.

Edited November 3, 2023 by eggzlot

[Shoe]

@eggzlot did you end up with a KunuoMagic encoder? I'm looking at them to solve a need to tile on a portrait TV. I'd like to get something more current than many of the encoders, but only if it makes sense.

[eggzlot]

9 hours ago, Shoe said:

@eggzlot did you end up with a KunuoMagic encoder? I'm looking at them to solve a need to tile on a portrait TV. I'd like to get something more current than many of the encoders, but only if it makes sense.

I got the Kunomagic Encoder.  Its a silly use case, but I am only using it to serve up my Roku Player so I can watch apps across multiple tvs in my house.  Its just me and my wife, and we have 6 tvs, so having to load apps on each tv, update passwords, etc was annoying.  so i have 1 roku and the Kunomagic is handling it.  I do not use tiles, splash tiles, nothing portrait mode and things stacked, etc, so not sure if it has those capabilities.

Picture quality seems ok.  My only "issue" and I've yet to go back to the manufacturer, is that 2x when I went to use it (out of a few dozen times) the image is extremely enlarged/bloated/zoomed in.  I reboot the device, and it works fine.  i could likely put on a kasa on it and have it auto reboot at like 3am 1x a week and it would "solve" the issue, but I'll see if it happens again.

[videostorm]

10 hours ago, Shoe said:

@eggzlot did you end up with a KunuoMagic encoder? I'm looking at them to solve a need to tile on a portrait TV. I'd like to get something more current than many of the encoders, but only if it makes sense.

For tiled sources you only need a 1080p encoder.  4K streams are only used for full screen display.  Subpictures use the lower resolution streams from the encoders to optimize performance.  For example, video on a 4K display in portrait mode is natively 1920x1080 horizontally, with up to 4 of them stacked (some cropping/scaling in the case of 4).  

[Shoe]

12 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Picture quality seems ok.

Like so-so or it's seems like a good 4k picture?

 

 

10 hours ago, videostorm said:

For tiled sources you only need a 1080p encoder.

Thanks for chiming in there. Yes, I know for tiling in portrait I don't need more than 1080P, but if I'm buying 3 or 4 of them I was thinking of getting a 4k one for the same reason as @eggzlot. I mean if I'm going all in on Netplay I might was well be able to do 4k and full screen on the other 8 TV's if I wanted. Just wondering about the quality. If it's just so-so and not much better than 1080P then I wont bother. Not a great deal of reviews on this kind of item. I'd prefer a 4 channel rack mount or I've seen some 8 channel 4k 30fps rack mount units for 700, but who knows if they suck or not. Some of your encoder links and other links are broken on your website so I'm doing the best I can to search about for options.

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, Shoe said:

Like so-so or it's seems like a good 4k picture?

 

 

Thanks for chiming in there. Yes, I know for tiling in portrait I don't need more than 1080P, but if I'm buying 3 or 4 of them I was thinking of getting a 4k one for the same reason as @eggzlot. I mean if I'm going all in on Netplay I might was well be able to do 4k and full screen on the other 8 TV's if I wanted. Just wondering about the quality. If it's just so-so and not much better than 1080P then I wont bother. Not a great deal of reviews on this kind of item. I'd prefer a 4 channel rack mount or I've seen some 8 channel 4k 30fps rack mount units for 700, but who knows if they suck or not. Some of your encoder links and other links are broken on your website so I'm doing the best I can to search about for options.

Honestly 90% of what I’m watching is European “football” aka soccer while I’m in my home office working using peacock or paramount.  Hard to judge picture quality tbh.  It’s streaming sports from Europe - not some 4k UHD Netflix action movie 

[videostorm]

1 hour ago, Shoe said:

Like so-so or it's seems like a good 4k picture?

 

 

Thanks for chiming in there. Yes, I know for tiling in portrait I don't need more than 1080P, but if I'm buying 3 or 4 of them I was thinking of getting a 4k one for the same reason as @eggzlot. I mean if I'm going all in on Netplay I might was well be able to do 4k and full screen on the other 8 TV's if I wanted. Just wondering about the quality. If it's just so-so and not much better than 1080P then I wont bother. Not a great deal of reviews on this kind of item. I'd prefer a 4 channel rack mount or I've seen some 8 channel 4k 30fps rack mount units for 700, but who knows if they suck or not. Some of your encoder links and other links are broken on your website so I'm doing the best I can to search about for options.

The KunuoMagic 4K is the best encoder currently available.  When running 4K60 h265 at 25Mbps the PQ is very good.  Shineco also has a 4K60 2.2 one but it still has a couple bugs.  Can't recommend it yet.  PQ and price are pretty much the same anyway.  Setup is faster on Shineco, but that is a one time thing.

If you have a huge TV or like to sit / stand very close the difference is meaningful.  Otherwise, the 1080p ones are inexpensive and a great choice.

The 4Kp30 1.4 encoders are only good if you know your source will output 4K with hdcp 1.4.  Most won't.