WhyPhy

I had this problem two different times. I don’t have a backup generator. A quick power “flicker” on the grid caused it. 

I think the best way to do this is with the Media Scene Agent. You’ll need to create a media scene for each scenario (group of rooms, primary starting room) you want.
 

If your matrix doesn’t have enough ports and C4 sees these as 2 separate/independent sources, you’ll then need to create custom programming to manually switch the second room to the required physical input / source device. Not the media stream, but the source device.

Getting a bigger matrix will ultimately be a more consistent and flexible solution.

The problem is that the power cycles extremely quickly when switching to/from the backup generator. Because of this, the keypad does not completely lose power before powering back on. It gets stuck in a weird “half awake” state. I had this happen to every keypad in my house. I don’t have a backup generator; it was due to a power flicker from the electrical grid. 
 

The good news is that it’s very easy to fix. At the breaker box, turn off the breakers for about 10 seconds, then turn them back on, without activating backup power. The switches will resume normal behavior. 

@RAV Thanks for putting so much time into this and especially for the diagrams. I think I can accomplish what you're showing in the last diagram without the Line Output Converter and perhaps even simpler programming. Let me know if this makes sense.

Split the room into 2 virtual rooms: Theater Room and Music Room

Speakers: Combine all 3 zones into a singe grouped zone in the AudioControl amp. This will sync the volume across the group. Set the AudioControl crossovers so the 4 surround speakers play above 120Hz and 2 Subs play below 120Hz. Set the Denon receiver crossover so all speakers play above 120Hz and subs play below 120Hz.

When the Music Room plays music:

• Single source plays to a combined AudioControl group using all 6 speakers
• Room volume is synced by the amp across all 6 speakers in the group

When Theater Room Turns On:

• activate the relays and the 4 speakers switch to being powered by the Denon Receiver (subs remain connected to the AudioControl amp)
• Set the Music Room to a "Denon Subwoofer" Generic A/V source, which is the line level source from the receiver, and set the room volume to 100%
  • All sound will be below 120Hz and will play on the subwoofers only (powered by the AudioControl amp)
  • The other 4 speakers will be disconnected from the matrix amp, and those channels won't be receiving any sound anyway due to the crossovers
• Denon receiver amps control speaker volume, Denon line level out controls subwoofer volume
• When programming an announcement
  • if relays are activated: deactivate relay, play announcement, reactivate relay (in music room)
  • if relays are not activated: play announcement (in music room)

I hope this sounds feasible. I just ordered 2 relays!

2 hours ago, RAV said:

Can that amp's internal setup (not using Control4 at all) have a zone track another zone's volume and source using the group feature that's shown in the manual?

Yes, that’s the way those 3 AudioControl Matrix zones were originally configured when it was audio only. They have to all share the same input and volume level when in that mode, and the amp handles the crossovers. 

6 hours ago, RAV said:

Two Rooms - Theater and Family Music
Three 4PDT relays.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QXYPJH7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I thought you’d come up with the perfect solution. But then I realized the Denon receiver cannot power the passive subs. The only amp that I have that can power them is the AudioControl Matrix amp. So I think I’m back to square one…

7 hours ago, cnicholson said:

I assume this would have occurred to you and I must be missing something, but I'm curious why not just drive speakers from AVR and feed EA5 output to AVR input (directly or indirectly via Matrix).  Audio would play in "Multi-Ch Stereo" and video would use Dolby (or whatever). 

Yes, that would be so much easier! The main reason for not doing this is Audio Announcements, so that they play on the overhead speakers and don't interrupt video with source switching, etc. Also, when listening to music, I only want audio from the overhead speakers and not the soundbar.

I'm trying to figure out how to coordinate 3 zones of audio from a matrix amp in a single room. They need to behave differently for Audio Sources vs. Video Sources.

• When an Audio Source is selected, all 3 zones should switch to the same audio source, and the matrix amp volumes should stay synchronized
• When a video source is selected, each of the 3 zones needs to switch to its own unique surround analog input, and the amp volumes should stay at 100% with the analog input controlling the volume level (except when an audio announcement occurs.)

Neither the Room Control Driver nor Media Scenes quite seem to do everything needed for both the audio and video scenarios. But I've probably missed some obvious capabilities. Custom programming seems to be able to address assigning the different inputs as necessary, but doesn't seem to be able to sync volume across the 3 matrix audio zones.

Configuration Details:

• EA5 Controller
• Video Setup: Apple TV -> Denon Receiver > LG TV (HDMI)
• Audio Setup for Video:
  • Denon Receiver powers Front/Center/Right Speakers for Video
    • The receiver is Video's Audio Endpoint 1 in target room
  • Denon Front Surround Analog Out to AudioControl Director M6800 Zone 6 to Front Surround Speakers
    • This zone is set as Audio Endpoint 1 in target room, using Generic AV Device #1 to discretely set the correct input
  • Denon Rear Surround Analog Out to AudioControl Director M6800 Zone 7 to Rear Surround Speakers (in Ceiling)
    • This zone is in hidden room 2, using Generic AV Device #2 to discretely set the correct input
  • Denon Subs Analog Out to AudioControl Director M6800 Zone 8 to Passive Subwoofers (Currently in hidden room 3)
    • This zone is in hidden room 3, using Generic AV Device #3 to discretely set the correct input
• Audio Setup for Audio Only
  • EA5 Digital and Analog Outputs to Various Other AudioControl Director M6800 Inputs

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

6 hours ago, ChzBurger said:

Sometimes you just want to change the lights without looking

Exactly why I wish some extra buttons were there. 

On 9/6/2023 at 3:12 PM, Gary Leeds UK said:

That sounds very boring

Agreed. 

1 hour ago, cnicholson said:

What is the "AI" part, as it relates to home automation?

Knowing how to execute the proper commands without requiring a lot of programming by the integrator, presumably. 

To translate Ckynight’s curt response…the C4 Fan Speed Controller should be compatible with the Fantech fan, so long as the fan current is not higher than the switch current limit. 

4 hours ago, Dueport said:

Very concerned about this turn of events - we just added Josh this year to our system and will not be happy if the integration with C4 eventually breaks as a result of this litigation and tension between the companies. At the very least, I don't see additional development happening now which is not cool because, honestly, Josh has been a bit of a let down and needs a lot more development on its own (let alone with strengthening the C4 integration).

It is possible the issues we have with Josh are from improper configuration by my local dealer who may not be familiar enough with the system despite being a Josh dealer (we were their first Josh system). But I have to say there are basic frustrating issues with Josh - the best example being response to the wake word: whether we're using a Nano in the wall or a Micro sitting on a counter, Josh often doesn't wake to the wake word and you have to shout at the device several times and go right next to it. We have the sensitivity settings turned up and all of that, it just isn't even remotely as responsive to the wake word as other devices like Siri on the iPhone (and that's otherwise a low bar). There are many other examples of Josh not being fully baked (often a request for a specific song or artist from Tidal results in very wrong results being played; unable to play SiriusXM stations consistently; unable to tell you the weather for more than today (not a bug but an example of basic things not being a part of the feature set); very poor handling of streaming services (Netflix is the only one it can actually search in our system); very poor handling of distributed audio/video (gets confused all the time trying to open apps on Roku for example); etc). We've also found that it isn't nearly as intuitive as Alexa despite that being one of the primary selling points: example - "Josh announce XYZ" works but "Josh in the kids room announce XYZ" throws an error; another example - "Josh play the station Symphony Hall from SiriusXM" plays that station in the room but if you say "Josh play the station Symphony Hall from SiriusXM in the [name of a different room]" it throws an error. The way Josh is marketed they make it sound like this is an advanced AI system that is able to parse through these sorts of basic variations of requests but in practice we're finding it very frustrating more often than not. I wish Josh would focus on fixing these issues and living up to the marketing rather than trying to be the next big control system. They have some really fantastic ideas (the Nano is a beautiful product; JoshGPT is a great new feature; and their concept of AI replacing much of the need for programming is a great goal) but I'm becoming increasingly concerned that the execution isn't there and may never be if they keep running to new things like remote controls. This new litigation between C4 and Josh doesn't give me any more confidence in the situation.

This is great real-world feedback.

I cannot stand the AVA remote and the lack of button and integrations. Based on the way if functions, I don't think it's much of a competitor to C4 Neeo/Halo remotes. It's a silver rectangular block with a touchscreen, but so are many other remotes from many other companies. I wonder if this is less about the AVA remote and more about Snap being concerned about Josh.ai becoming a legitimate competitor to Control4.

Does the Josh.ai / Control4 integration no longer work? If it does not, that's bad news for customers.

3 hours ago, time2jet said:

Which remote ever launched by anyone is better, bugs withstanding (will get addressed)? Serious question.  

The Philips Pronto line of remotes of course! 

They were great for their time, especially the final versions, but obviously their time has long sense passed. The Halo Touch does look a lot like the TSU9300

20 hours ago, nxr said:

Thanks - I was able to confirm it’s AAC 256 for Apple 

It’s disappointing when they advertise high-end DACs but only implement low bitrate audio streams. 

We use Apple Music because it it’s bundled with the Apple One Family Plan. My family would probably rather use Spotify but I refuse to pay for duplicate subscriptions.

The one feature Apple Music has, that most other services do not, is iCloud Music Library. It allows me to upload my entire collection of rare/live music to the cloud and access it like any other song through the Apple Music app. (I losslessly converted all of my FLAC files to Apple Lossless ALAC and it’s available through Apple’s cloud at full original quality.) That’s much easier than maintaining local servers/libraries and transferring files to mobile devices. 

I think the real killer feature of Apple Music is that everything “just works” within the Apple hardware/CarPlay/Siri ecosystem. Apple users want that same simplicity to extend into the other systems they use. 

I reached out to a friend who works at Apple and have some more details. Last year, Apple released updates to their developer tools that allow third party developers to incorporate more Apple Music functionality into third party apps. These tools are Apple Apple MuiscKit and Apple Music API. These tools work with iOS apps, Android apps, and JavaScript apps. A Control4 integration would most likely use the JavaScript client/server implementation (control panel/smartphone app being the client, C4 Director being the server).

There is a data share requirement: the user must agree to share their personal Apple Music data (i.e. personal music library details) with the third party developer (i.e. Autonomic/Sonos/Control4.) There are no data share requirement for the third party developer to send any data back to Apple, and looking through the API documentation, there are no provisions for even doing so. There are also no ads or pop-ups. The only requirement is, after a user signs in with an account that does not have an active Apple Music subscription, to inform the user that the subscription is inactive and that subscription activation is required to play music.

All of this information is available on the Apple Developer website: Apple MusicKit, Apple Music API

Here are the key takeaways:

• The Autonomic integration appears to be a fully authorized integration (using Apple MusicKit and Apple Music API)
• There are no data sharing requirements for third party developers to send data to Apple
• New functions were added last year that enable more comprehensive third party integrations
• Third parties must do some development work to enable these features, but it appears to be very straightforward and well documented, and reference libraries are available

Given this, the big question isn't can Control4 can enable native Apple Music Support, but rather if and when Control4 will enable native Apple Music Support.

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

Again, Tesla has a lot less POTENTIAL info on you (like your alarm code) than Control4 potentially has.

You obviously have no idea how much data Tesla collects. They have complete location history, record every move a driver makes to train their “Full Self Driving” (whether the car has FSD or not), and have a camera pointed at the driver to track their face and eyes. They record and store video clips from when the car is driving and from when it’s parked in your garage. They have the the ability to unlock, start, and move the car remotely, and open your garage door. Furthermore, there is no way to opt out of the data collection or view/delete the data on their servers. The Tesla CPU processes about 500 trillion ops/second of data. Control4 doesn’t even have the potential to be remotely near this level of data collection and inference capability, much less have something in full production monitoring millions of customers.

Speculating that Apple Music requires all partners to share all data, even if when it’s not directly related to Apple Music features, is baseless and unfounded. 

If Control4 already works with Google and Amazon services, then privacy isn’t what is limiting Apple Music functionality. 

12 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

If for example Apple requires data collection or ad popups and that goes against Control4's policies....well that's a problem. If memory serves, that was the hold up with Google (ans Siri still) voice integration that they wanted to get data on EVERYTHING to allow integration (even items not controlled).

Apple has a much stronger customer-centric privacy stance than pretty much any other big tech company. It’s more likely about wanting almost complete control of the user experience, for consistency and feature parity. I’ve seen no documentation in the Apple developers portal of any functionality that even hints at sharing user data that isn’t directly related to the functionality of a feature. Unfortunately, there is nothing published related to “full UI integration of Apple Music.”  Perhaps the EU probes are causing them to loosen their grasp a bit?

18 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Something like Autonimics or even Sonos have an advantage there in that their systems are limited to just audio.

That’s a good point. If a company is only focused on audio, they have more developer focus and expertise to get the more complicated integrations to work. Audio does seem to be just one item on a long list of features for Control4. Still, with almost 100 million subscribers worldwide and being the second largest streaming music service, I would hope Apple Music would be a fairly high priority. 
 

If a smaller company like Autonomic can create this functionality, I wonder if others might now be able to do the same. I’d be surprised if Autonomic has some special arrangement with these big tech companies. 

I also came across Mirage Vision, which is a Las Vegas-based company I have not seen mentioned here before. They purchase standard Samsung TVs and waterproof them for outdoor use. Mirage Vision TVs are more expensive than Furrion TVs, but less expensive than Samsung's outdoor TVs.

Only the most expensive Samsung Mini-LED models come in enclosures with additional screen protection, so Mirage Vision probably is not the best fit for what I need. But they are an interesting alternative.

I think the Furrion TVs are the way to go. They are fairly reasonably priced as outdoor TVs go. More importantly, they have impact-resistant tempered glass screens. And 4-year extended “accident coverage” from Amazon is about $200, which for me is worth the cost if it actually pays out when something breaks. 

Any idea if there is a C4 Driver for these?

Thanks for the feedback on this. I'm not wanting to spend a huge amount, mostly because there's still a chance it will get damaged. My concern with the plexiglass protectors is that it's going to be very reflective and not great for outdoor viewing, even through it's not in direct sunlight. Are there outdoor appropriate (matte) screen protectors available?

For the record, we've had 3 TVs damaged so far.

1. The first to go was a C9 LG 77" OLED. This one was the heart breaker. The LG OLEDs are extremely fragile and it completely failed with a minimal impact. I replaced it with with a 83" C2 OLED and protected it by putting a 1/2"-thick foam strip around the screen perimeter and then put a TVGuard plexiglass cover in front of that, leaving an protective gap between the plexiglass cover and the screen. Hopefully that's enough protection.
2. The second was a crack in the screen of a very cheap 42" Samsung from a thrown Xbox controller. It still works but is slightly annoying.
3. The latest is the 8-year-old 55" LG LCD described above (chipped screen, still working but annoying.)

I need to replace the TV on my covered back porch. It only gets direct sunlight for a couple of hours in the morning, and only in the summer, but it’s never used at that time of day. The existing indoor TV lasted 8 years and is still working, so it’s not exposed to much weather. 
 

The biggest concern is impacts to the screen, due to a special needs kid with occasional outbursts. The existing TV has several gouges and white spots, which is why it needs to be replaced. 
 

Given this, what brands/models would be the best, lowest-longterm-cost option for screen durability? Would a protective housing have a more durable screen than an outdoor TV?

I had an HAI Omni previously. It was rock solid for what it was designed to do. In many ways, I prefer it to my current Elk System.