Networking hardware - what are people buying these days?

[pinkoos]

10 hours ago, Control4Savant said:

https://www.netgear.com/business/wifi/mesh/sxk80

I can hit max wifi gig speeds expected equally across the wireless network so we’re not talking about 300 or 400mb capped Eero. Full L3 system with remote management. Hardwire local devices or L2 or AVB/POE/10g AVoIP switches. Better RF pattern and placement versus ceiling mount APs. This is becoming standard for any of my residential projects, small or large most of them full of catx I ran myself. 

 

Wow that’s pretty impressive 

One satellite can cover 6000 sq ft?

[msgreenf]

1 hour ago, pinkoos said:

Wow that’s pretty impressive 

One satellite can cover 6000 sq ft?

Technically you are reading that wrong. It's 2 that cover 6k

[ekohn00]

4 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

 

Just wondering if there is more info that ceiling ap's have worse RF or placement? As I spent 20 mins trying to find any antenna specs for orbi, but were unable to find any specs. 

 

 

you might be comparing 2 different antennas, typical dome and panel. Both have different uses. Panels tend to be a more narrow focused beam, while domes spread more. This leads to optimal placement and uses for each.

[booch]

FWIW, I ripped out brand new Pakedge/Araknis gear to get to an all-Ubiquiti network and am very happy with the decision. Being able to manage everything through the UniFi platform is really nice for someone like me whos a 'prosumer' and tinkers/wants to be hands on. And I wasn't cool with the recent change to make the Snap stuff cloud-based, dealer-only upgradable given potential threats and the speed at which standards change. Lastly, they offer a ton of options for the hardware which I really appreciate, e.g., the USW-Flex, which is great for adding PoE hardware where homerun wiring is impractical.

[pinkoos]

6 hours ago, booch said:

FWIW, I ripped out brand new Pakedge/Araknis gear to get to an all-Ubiquiti network and am very happy with the decision. Being able to manage everything through the UniFi platform is really nice for someone like me whos a 'prosumer' and tinkers/wants to be hands on. And I wasn't cool with the recent change to make the Snap stuff cloud-based, dealer-only upgradable given potential threats and the speed at which standards change. Lastly, they offer a ton of options for the hardware which I really appreciate, e.g., the USW-Flex, which is great for adding PoE hardware where homerun wiring is impractical.

Could you let us know what models of the hardware you went with? That would be helpful in case I decide to switch to Ubiquiti

Thanks

[Control4Savant]

On 2/27/2022 at 6:24 AM, Andrew luecke said:

 

Just wondering if there is more info that ceiling ap's have worse RF or placement? As I spent 20 mins trying to find any antenna specs for orbi, but were unable to find any specs. 

We place motion sensors on the ceiling because they tend to have better line of sight (and the same principle applies to ap's too imho). Freestanding aps seem to have more limited options for placement imho.

 

I started working off of this assumption a few years ago when I was doing mostly UBNT. They had RF radio output charts available on the site and it became clear their Units like the Unifi Mesh FlexAPs which can be table top set, have a more uniform rf ‘bubble’ and less of the mostly forward directional cone form a traditional dome ceiling AP or panel style APs. The UDM radio placement is designed with the same in mind. These Netgear units or and performance mesh APs similar in design seem to all have this advantage. 

[tacos]

why do dealers recommend arkanis?

[LollerAgent]

1 hour ago, tacos said:

why do dealers recommend arkanis?

tldr: Because SnapAV sells it. 

Dealers make a good margin on it, they have decent support, it has Snap's OvRC and it's also on the C4 "approved" list of networking gear (again, Snap owns Araknis - Snap also owns C4).  None of this means it's a great product, fwiw.

Edited March 5, 2022 by LollerAgent

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, LollerAgent said:

tldr: Because SnapAV sells it. 

Dealers make a good margin on it, they have decent support, it has Snap's OvRC and it's also on the C4 "approved" list of networking gear (again, Snap owns Araknis - Snap also owns C4).  None of this means it's a great product, fwiw.

Also. Reduced risk. If there is an issue, control4 can provide support directly. Whereas if you're using another product, you're a bit more on your own if there are issues

[Cyknight]

2 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Also. Reduced risk. If there is an issue, control4 can provide support directly. Whereas if you're using another product, you're a bit more on your own if there are issues

Plus ease of access (as in use a single supplier)

Plus it's perfectly fine gear for almost any install.

Plus C4 has setup procedures laid out for dealers not particularly well versed in networking (though they ought to be.....)

Plus the interface is made easy to use for those things you typically need for a (smaller) C4 install

Plus it comes factory set with any potential troublesome (harder) settings en- or disabled

 

Also not saying it means it's the 'right' or 'great' gear at all - but there are plenty of reasons for many if not most of C4 dealers to use Araknis/Pakedge that are perfectly valid.

 

[tacos]

Delete 

[tacos]

On 2/28/2022 at 10:13 AM, pinkoos said:

Could you let us know what models of the hardware you went with? That would be helpful in case I decide to switch to Ubiquiti

Thanks

Second this request 
 

this info would be very helpful

[tacos]

So arkanis switches can be used with ubiquiti ? I believe so but not 100% positive 

Is it recommended to use the same brand switches within a system when starting from scratch?

Would there be reason to use Arkanis switches over Ubiquiti switches assuming starting from scratch with router and access points form Ubiquiti?

 

[Control4Savant]

Use how? Networking is generally cross compatible…even managed networks. Features… Unifi, OVRV, InSight whatever..  may not be and so are only limited to that particular devices needs. If you had an Araknis router and switches you can use Ubiquity APs and still take advantage of Unifi management for the wireless and OVRC on the wired end… or whatever way you like. 

[Andrew luecke]

7 hours ago, tacos said:

So arkanis switches can be used with ubiquiti ? I believe so but not 100% positive 

Is it recommended to use the same brand switches within a system when starting from scratch?

Would there be reason to use Arkanis switches over Ubiquiti switches assuming starting from scratch with router and access points form Ubiquiti?

 

In general, best to stick to the same brand. A lot of these systems are a lot easier to manage if you use 1 brand because they may automate things on the interface (If you want a full blown guest Network and wifi for instance, It also means that you need to copy More things between both systems, like VLAN's if you choose to use 2 systems, and the difficulty is much higher because you need someone who understands both. Furthermore, some changes will need changes to both). The other disadvantage is that some types of diagnostics may be a bit more difficult too, because logs are spread into different locations

[ekohn00]

11 hours ago, tacos said:

So arkanis switches can be used with ubiquiti ? I believe so but not 100% positive 

Is it recommended to use the same brand switches within a system when starting from scratch?

Would there be reason to use Arkanis switches over Ubiquiti switches assuming starting from scratch with router and access points form Ubiquiti?

 

Yes, you could mix and match brands, but you may not want to. I'd always keep the WIFI WAPs the same brand, even though you might mix switch vendors.

There are reasons you may not keep everything the same. If you already have good switches, and adding Unify WAPs, you might keep those switches, especially if they are not being used as "managed switches".

But if you're starting off from scratch, try and keep everything the same - as someone said, there's a lot of benefit to the management systems.

You mentioned Unify WAP, which could push you to the Unifi router. The UDM-PRO is a great router and has the management for the WAPs built in. In this case you might want to grab Unify Switches so everything is integrated to the same management platform.

I personally would stay away from the Araknis at this point. Not because they are good or bad, but simply because they can only be bought by a dealers. If you have Unifi WAPs they  can be bought and managed by you or a dealer. If an Araknis switch goes bad, your dealer supports and sells it - but you can't order a replacement on Amazon or Best Buy - so service is limited.

[Andrew luecke]

Never mix wifi aps unless you know exactly what you're doing. It overcomplicates things and they deal with sticky clients in different ways sometimes which may not work well.

 

Overall, with a cloud based system, i honestly recommend sticking to the same brand for everything. It makes management significantly easier and less clunky

[pinkoos]

Continuing to research mesh systems and came up with a question:

Would I be able to connect my Araknis 24 port switch to one of the mesh router's LAN ports? Would any issues arise?

Does it matter that it's a managed switch vs an unmanaged switch?

This seems like it could be a potential issue switching to a mesh system, but I'm not sure

In my rack, I've got the Araknis router, Araknis 24 port switch, Araknis 16 port POE switch

Then I've got 4 Araknis WAPs spread throughout the house

Not sure if a mesh system would replace only parts of these components (ie, mix and match) or if I would somehow need to go all in and remove all the Araknis components and replace with something else (what would you replace switches with to work with the mesh system?)

Thanks

[Andrew luecke]

6 hours ago, pinkoos said:

Continuing to research mesh systems and came up with a question:

Would I be able to connect my Araknis 24 port switch to one of the mesh router's LAN ports? Would any issues arise?

Does it matter that it's a managed switch vs an unmanaged switch?

This seems like it could be a potential issue switching to a mesh system, but I'm not sure

In my rack, I've got the Araknis router, Araknis 24 port switch, Araknis 16 port POE switch

Then I've got 4 Araknis WAPs spread throughout the house

Not sure if a mesh system would replace only parts of these components (ie, mix and match) or if I would somehow need to go all in and remove all the Araknis components and replace with something else (what would you replace switches with to work with the mesh system?)

Thanks

I'm fairly confused. If you've already got hardwired access points in your house, why are you looking at mesh at all. What are you specifically trying to achieve here? What is your goal? Are you trying to add more ap's to an area with absolutely no Ethernet nearby. Or upgrade them?

Again, mesh has its applications, but it's not something that should be first choice in an install, and many brands have the capability built in anyway at varying degrees.

You can keep the other network equipment in most cases, but all your aps should be the same to ensure roaming behaviours are correct (because good roaming sometimes uses weird quirks to encourage bad clients to roam.

 

So most importantly, are there Ethernet connections everywhere you want APs? 

[pinkoos]

Thanks, I'm just trying to finally get a reliable, stable system setup

It's been a year and a half that we have been dealing with these frustrating issues

Since we went with Araknis hardware and a true network the first time around, I am thinking maybe a mesh system could potentially solve our problems

We've done all kind of troubleshooting on and off, had Comcast out multiple times and just can't figure out what the issue is and why it's happening

I definitely don't want to try Pakedge but also don't want to really mix and match components, so looking to replace all hardware with a single brand that will hopefully simplify things (at least that is a nice part of having all Araknis gear)

My dealer is supposed to come out after spring break to swap out the Araknis router with something he has laying around his store (he mentioned Pakedge or Netgear earlier) just to test and see what happens

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, we have ethernet runs in the study (where the rack is and where the cable line comes in), every bedroom, the family room, the kids' gameroom, the kitchen and even inside one closet kind of in the middle of the house

It's a single story, L-shaped house, a little under 5000 sq ft

[pinkoos]

The other option is for me to just buy an off the shelf router from somewhere like Best Buy or Costco and swap it with the Araknis myself and see what happens

[pinkoos]

But even doing that won't tell me if there's an issue with one of the switches, one of the WAPs, etc.

My dealer is also running out of troubleshooting options (and time)

[Andrew luecke]

7 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

Thanks, I'm just trying to finally get a reliable, stable system setup

It's been a year and a half that we have been dealing with these frustrating issues

Since we went with Araknis hardware and a true network the first time around, I am thinking maybe a mesh system could potentially solve our problems

We've done all kind of troubleshooting on and off, had Comcast out multiple times and just can't figure out what the issue is and why it's happening

I definitely don't want to try Pakedge but also don't want to really mix and match components, so looking to replace all hardware with a single brand that will hopefully simplify things (at least that is a nice part of having all Araknis gear)

My dealer is supposed to come out after spring break to swap out the Araknis router with something he has laying around his store (he mentioned Pakedge or Netgear earlier) just to test and see what happens

Anyway, to answer your question, yes, we have ethernet runs in the study (where the rack is and where the cable line comes in), every bedroom, the family room, the kids' gameroom, the kitchen and even inside one closet kind of in the middle of the house

It's a single story, L-shaped house, a little under 5000 sq ft

Randomly swapping things isn't the way to approach it.. You need to work out specifically where the issues are..

• Make sure nobody is using bittorrent or anything similar or is uploading at high speed (this will destroy the internet)
• Ensure wifi is disabled on your router, and ensure the only other thing plugged in is your switch.. This is good network practice anyway (for almost all products, NEVER use the wireless built into your router).
• Ensure all SONOS gear is on wifi. Disconnect the ethernet from all of them. Someone mentioned Sky boxes can cause loops too (but not sure of this)
• Grab a laptop, plug it directly into the router, run pingplotter and ping the IP of the router, and a reliable internet IP (like 8.8.8.8, which is google, so almost always be online).
  • If you get dropouts, its likely the router or internet connection. However, to confirm 100%, plug out the switch to confirm. If no dropouts on your router happen with the rest of the network plugged out, you have a network loop. 
• IF its not the router, ensure no devices are plugged into anything except a managed switch (don't daisy chain through anything). Ensure RSTP/Rogue DHCP guarding is enabled 
• Open a few command prompt windows, and ping -t IP. This will do a continuous ping.. monitor it. Ping all major network components (Wifi AP's, routers and switches) in different windows.
  • If you get dropouts from all at the same time (particularly regularly in large blocks of dropouts then back), you likely have network loop and the switch you're using is dropping out. 
  •  If nothing is dropping out (including the ping's to your wireless access points), but your wireless is still dodgy, then its your wifi network. It could also be incorrect wireless configuration. THEN consider switching AP's.. OR reconfiguring the network. 
  • If you have dropouts to one device, you likely have interference on that cable, the cable is damaged/improperly made or the product is faulty. 

 

Switching to a mesh network won't fix any of these issues, unless a network cable is faulty. In fact, in some cases, it will make things worse.

If it turns out to be the wireless network and interference related, you're probably better off with a product like Ruckus which is expensive, but  should be well suited for high density high interference environments (but I doubt this is the case).

You need to diagnose the issue and determine the exact fault, to be sure you fix it correctly

 

[pinkoos]

The other reason I was looking at a mesh system is that it seems, at least from my reading, the nodes (ie, "APs") don't need much (any?) configuration, I'm not sure

I was looking at systems that have ethernet backhauls so that I can use the wired ethernet connections in the nodes to optimize connectivity and speed

[msgreenf]

13 minutes ago, pinkoos said:

The other reason I was looking at a mesh system is that it seems, at least from my reading, the nodes (ie, "APs") don't need much (any?) configuration, I'm not sure

I was looking at systems that have ethernet backhauls so that I can use the wired ethernet connections in the nodes to optimize connectivity and speed

you are really defeating the purpose of mesh