wappinghigh Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 But who is selling what? C4 is selling the hardware the EV driver runs on. EV is selling the driver. Then you also need the PC? What I now need a dedicated PC and is and MM created and slod by a MM licenced pro. And what about the player! Where do dune and popcorn fit in. I feel like I am buying my car engine ans wheels from three different pros when I just want to write a check and drive away. Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk^ Exactly. Folks.. nobody says you have to put up with this nonsense.. This is not about DIY at all.. If there is some spat between EV and MM, or MM has some problem with their product running on a PC not instaled "by a professional".. ...whatever.. This is hardly a problem for law abiding conservative folks who just want a simply solution to work and maintain a license... Like I said. Don't like it?, then don't buy and use MM..... You can setup a QNAP (with the free EV XBMC driver) with or without a Dune or use some other XBMC player and just use the AlanChow XBMC driver and be done with it.. They can just stick it, if it all becomes too complicated.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 But who is selling what? C4 is selling the hardware the EV driver runs on. EV is selling the driver. Then you also need the PC? What I now need a dedicated PC and is and MM created and slod by a MM licenced pro. And what about the player! Where do dune and popcorn fit in. I feel like I am buying my car engine ans wheels from three different pros when I just want to write a check and drive away. Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk? You ALWAYS needed a computer to RUN MyMovies on. Simply put, before you could use your old PC to run MyMovies, connect to your account and buy points, now you need a licensed product to run it on.The player is of zero consequence, EV is of little consequence, and beyond being the 'remote control' for the whole operation, Control4 has nothing to do with this at all, nor did it ever. It really is no different then Control4 running drivers, EV making a driver for ...let's say Sony Blu-Rays, and having a Sony Blu-Ray of the proper model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 But there driver is the one making the api calls etc.Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk So? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 ? You ALWAYS needed a computer to RUN MyMovies on. Simply put, before you could use your old PC to run MyMovies, connect to your account and buy points, now you need a licensed product to run it on.The player is of zero consequence, EV is of little consequence, and beyond being the 'remote control' for the whole operation, Control4 has nothing to do with this at all, nor did it ever.It really is no different then Control4 running drivers, EV making a driver for ...let's say Sony Blu-Rays, and having a Sony Blu-Ray of the proper model.Ok but what computer do I now need. My current laptop or something else?And to use your SONY analogy. Sony is not requiring the dealer installing all the EV and C4 stuff is also Sony licensed. Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 So?going way backto the MM guys post. this is about UX and making sure the dev creates a good UX so it is all about the driver?Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Ok but what computer do I now need.My current laptop or something else?And to use your SONY analogy. Sony is not requiring the dealer installing all the EV and C4 stuff is also Sony licensed.Sent from my LT26i using TapatalkI'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand. You need a computer (or similar) set-up by a licensed professional to run the professional suite. And no Sony doesn't - but neither does MyMovies require me to to be licensed to sell you the EV driver, they require me to be a licensed pro to install the pro-suite or make a device running the pro suite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 going way backto the MM guys post. this is about UX and making sure the dev creates a good UX so it is all about the driver?Sent from my LT26i using TapatalkUX on the device running MyMovies - not the EV driver. Want to point out that this is MY interpretation, let Brian correct me if I'm wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I'm not sure why this is so difficult to understand. You need a computer (or similar) set-up by a licensed professional to run the professional suite.And no Sony doesn't - but neither does MyMovies require me to to be licensed to sell you the EV driver, they require me to be a licensed pro to install the pro-suite or make a device running the pro suite.So I self manage every other piece of software on my pc but need a pro to mange MM?Perhaps C4 will need a pro to set up and mange composer home. The PC is a pretty dumb interface in all of this querying MM and allowing queries by C4/EV what UX on that pc are they worried about?Sent from my LT26i using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ericscales Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the free Stonetree driver which is far superior than the EV driver in my opinion. But anyway, back to the pissing match. I think this is a bad decision on the part of the MyMovies folks, a step backward (well maybe three steps) and as has been mentioned I would imagine they will have more grief than benefit from this. Just for kicks, I hopped on the MyMovies sight to find these manufacturers that have integrated MyMovies. It took some digging but I found the page. There are five. So then I looked at integrators. Ok, a litltle better, but 18. And as far as installers, well, I couldn't figure out how to look that up other than an e-mail address for more information. Yes, this is a convoluted mess. I've been waiting for months for my dealer to get me a missing tab from a keypad. In the end, this is an application you download, right the installer, click next, click ok, let it install, click finish and you're done. It seems to me they're trying to be a Kaleidescape minus the movie store. That dog won't hunt. I see the point of going through an authorized dealer to install a system that controls my lights, my security system and all that (although, I still wish they would offer an alternative to that for those of us that like to tinker). However, the software that organizes my movies. Seriously folks, this is a bit ridiculous, complicated, and just overall annoying (albeit their decision to make). Someone should drop a line to the folks at Mozilla so that we can have an authorized partner come install Firefox on our machines. Wouldn't that be a hoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaltrader Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 I find it funny that MyMovies was founded on the DIY concept and has crowdsourced its movie database. But 2 years ago EV helped them create an API and added a driver to integrate into Control4 and now if you want to use that driver MyMovies is no longer a DIY proposition. If you don't use the driver then you are fine and nothing has changed. If you want to use that driver then MyMovies is too complicated and you need a professional to install MyMovies. When I originally had the EV MyMovies driver installed my original dealer had me setup the MyMovies integration as he had never worked with it previously. I have fortunately switched to a much better dealer since then. This is a convoluted mess that was most likely started by a few CI dealers (not MyMovies) that wanted to maintain control of the entire process. Relinquishing control they feel damages their margins. What many CI fail to realize is that if they just offer a better solution it doesnt matter how you get there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 So I self manage every other piece of software on my pc but need a pro to mange MM?Perhaps C4 will need a pro to set up and mange composer home.The PC is a pretty dumb interface in all of this querying MM and allowing queries by C4/EV what UX on that pc are they worried about?Sent from my LT26i using TapatalkHey, I'm in no way saying I support the decision, I'm just trying to clarify WHERE the 'change' is at as far as I understand. No more, no less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Someone should drop a line to the folks at Mozilla so that we can have an authorized partner come install Firefox on our machines. Wouldn't that be a hoot.Anyone remember Netscape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnerup Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 Guys, I think this is being seen as more complicated than it is.... It is quite simply actually. Control4 is a product you get delivered from a professional. Extra Vegetables drivers are products that you get delivered from a professional, typically a Control4 dealer. My Movies WAS a product that anyone could install themselves, NOW My Movies for use with control systems becomes a product that you get delivered by a professional. That professional is EITHER your Control4 dealer who supply you the software and knowledge, just like they supply the EV drivers, or it is a company who produce and supply a pre-build system, such as a media server, ripping device or similar, that compes pre-installed with a My Movies based software. It may not be an ideal situation for the DIY, but the whole Control4 solution and all that comes along with it is not a DIY product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnerup Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 One thing I also would like to clarify... My Movies is a solution have been build around serving the enthusiast users for years, and we will continue to be with one part of our solution. My Movies have also been a solution for the professional market, not for as long as we have been for the enthusiast users, but for long, which we also will continue to be with another part of our solution. Since the very start of My Movies, we have required professionals to be part of our installer program - we have required them to be fed from the arm that serves the products for professionals. To the professionals, we have a lot of additional services, such as remoting into machines that does not work, providing direct technical phone support and much else - options that are only available if purchasing from the professional arm. The problem we now are facing is that a lot of professionals are ignoring the arm they are to purchase from, because the other arm is more appealing to them - most of them are simply trying to bypass the sign-up fee for the professional program, while others just have not bothered spending ten minutes reading the requirement, and somehow managed to convince themselves that what they were doing was personal usage, as they were installing for a personal client - whatever the reason, they are doing things wrong. The result being that customers who believe they turn to a professional for help ends up getting a product installed that the professional knows nothing more about than how to install it. This works very well for the professional client, who can just do a few solutions without making the commitment required. This works fine for the DIY user, who knows how to get things running if something happens. This does NOT work for the average customer, who purchase a product that works fine the first two months, and whenever there is a problem, the customer cannot turn to his professional, as the professional does not have the required knowledge, and, the professional cannot turn to us, because he have chosen to take the short path, and ignore the program that gives him all the options of us providing the personal support where we can remote in and resolve the sitation, or do whatever it takes to resolve. This average customer is now in a position where he have a system that does not operate the way it was intended to, and he tells all his friends that this My Movies based solution supplied by his professional supplier is rubbish. The professional supplier is now in a position where he installed something where he was in over his head, and the only way he can see himself in the eyes is by casting the blaim at the My Movies software, and he will then tell all his professional colleagues that My Movies is not the product to go to. At the same time, we have a number of professional partners who are trying to sell products that is created with high quality - they have spend the time it takes to ensure that everything is set up correct, and just works - all the time. And if something does not work, they typically know how to resolve it quick and easy for the customer - if they do not, they turn to us, and we help them get things resolved. In other words, these companies supplies a quality product that meets the criterias the customer can expect from a professional product. These same companies however have a harder and harder time selling their products, because they are selling them to dealers who heard from a customer, or from another professional dealer that the My Movies based solutions are unstable and unreliable - because another professional installed something he did not have the knowledge to support. This is a situation that we cannot live with, and it is a situation that our professional partners cannot live with. The only way we have found to be able to resolve this is to supply features intended for the professional market, only to the professional part of our business. Ideally, there was another way, so that we could continue to supply everything to the DIY user as well, who knows what it means to be a DIY'er. But the only way we can stop these "professionals" from acting unprofessionally (again, I am being a bit unfair to some here, because some of these simply for some reason managed to not know), is to differentiate what we supply in the professional market, and what we supply in the end-user market. I honestly are sorry for those DIY'ers, where we just made it a little bit harder to be a DIY'er on these sorts of things, but we have no choice, other than this, or leave the professional business in total. Please try to put yourself in a position of the end-customer without the DIY knowledge, who are provided solutions by companies who cannot support the product they are supplying - would you like to be that customer? Best regards, Brian BinnerupMy Movies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitaltrader Posted March 10, 2014 Author Share Posted March 10, 2014 I think most of us have no problem with professional installs as we are all C4 customers with professionally installed systems. Its just that we prefer not to be treated as $$ dollar signs without consideration as customers. There are a few dealers here (not the majority) that have lost sight of us as customers and treat us on this board with disrespect and fail to see we each have varying needs. Anytime we as end users want to modify our professionally installed systems we are accused of being DIY dirt. When these type of changes to the terms of a software license are not handled with great care it can turn into dissatisfaction for long term customers that have been previous advocates. Brian, I appreciate you coming here to help assuage our concerns as end users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnerup Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 digital When these type of changes to the terms of a software license are not handled with great care it can turn into dissatisfaction for long term customers that have been previous advocates. I fully agree with this, and this is why we are not just closing the door on this, but are looking at having a doorman that lets in all those that should be let in. The API was originally designed specifically with the professional market in mind, and we at the time of designing it discussed a lot if it should even be made available to the end-users - at the time, we had the DIY users in mind, and while some of our professional customers may not like the DIY people, we know that they have a big part in the success of our product, so ideally, we would like to continue to serve the DIY users. What we did not consider at the time was that the offering to the DIY'ers would cause professionals to choose that path to save what is effectively a few hundreds $. To be honest, we did not see it coming - if we had, we would have done things differently the first time. I think that in the end, it tells a lot about the pressure the custom installer market is in, that they choose the easy path for a few hundred $. And this really is just a few hundred $ - the sign-up fee is $250, and includes a number of demonstration licenses. We do not get why the professional customers simply do not follow the path we have made for them - the outcome of this is not in anyones interest to be honest, but again, we have no choice if we want to supply solutions for the professional market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 ^ LOL! Like the "professionals" want to DIY. Now I've heard everything around here.. Digital.... Post of the year. Never a true word spoken. Binnerup.. I've sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnerup Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 I was creating a longer reply on this, but let's take it over the PM. In the end, I fully follow your opinions, but you are operating as a DIY with non-DIY product solution.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mthomtech Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 What we did not consider at the time was that the offering to the DIY'ers would cause professionals to choose that path to save what is effectively a few hundreds $. To be honest, we did not see it coming - if we had, we would have done things differently the first time.I think that in the end, it tells a lot about the pressure the custom installer market is in, that they choose the easy path for a few hundred $. And this really is just a few hundred $ - the sign-up fee is $250, and includes a number of demonstration licenses.We do not get why the professional customers simply do not follow the path we have made for them - the outcome of this is not in anyones interest to be honest, but again, we have no choice if we want to supply solutions for the professional market.That's what I don't get either. It's not like the barriers to entry are overwhelming. I like DIY and I know I can do more than the average user (and I know I could also screw it up and need some real support) for both C4 and MM. I've even inquired about becoming a C4 dealer, but haven't made the leap to building a true business that would be a proper C4 dealer ... those barriers are higher - and for good reasons. I've also thought about becoming an MM pro. If I REALLY wanted to do a lot of DIY integration with MM, $250 is not unreasonable at all. If I had paid $250 for what I got for free from MM in 2008, I would not be disappointed knowing how well it has worked for me. I guess I just see it as this. If I'm truly an end user, I get C4 from my dealer , I get my EV driver from my dealer, I get my MM license from my dealer. And my dealer should play by the rules with MM, just like we do with C4. If I want really want to be a DIY guy or CI with MM, is paying $250 or at least finding a dealer who is playing by the rules too much to ask?On a related topic, it would be nice if C4 could find a way to work with the top dealers to allow end users (that the dealer is comfortable with it) to pay for Pro for those DIY types. I know the control is a slippery slope, but maybe there is a way that would work. But to be truly honest, just think about all the free dealer help we get from this forum. I always see a lot more help than I see complaints that us users ask questions. No model is perfect , there's a balance between protecting the brand and the professionals and opening everything up. I think C4 and MM both do the best they can. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 ^ Ok.. It hadn't occurred to me *anybody* could become a MM pro for $250.. even the end user.. It's a touch steep, but I could actually wear that, If it was life time, would guarantee me a premium service and it was in writing that all the EV/C4/MM integration always worked... So can anybody become a MM Pro ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnerup Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 There is one other thing I also would like to point out here, which is the fact that our solutions is seen as just a data editor.... The below can be seen as advertising, choose to ignore it if you do not like that. My Movies is a software solution that can be installed and used by end users, ranking from all to users that just manages a small movie collection, to users that build complete servers, which acts as base of their complete entertainment solution. The media servers are what our professional partners typically provides, and it is the feature set of the media servers, which until My Movies 5 only have been available on Windows Home Server and Server 2012 Essentials, that is unknown for the majority of the users. I expect that most of you are "just" using My Movies as a meta-data editor.... The server solutions contains a lot more than that, which means that it's ideal place is not just a software on a personal computer to do some editing, but its intention is that it is a central part of the complete solution. Some of the things that the server solution gives, and My Movies 5 gives are: Fully automated movie disc copying. This is not a solution like the others where you have to do everything manually - this is a put disc in, be done with it solution. From our knowledge, the only other provider of a fully automated solution for this is Kaleidescape - their FAQ writes that they have 157,000 Dvd's in their database, where we have more than 800,000 individual titles, and 350,000 unique discs, meaning that we expect it to by far being the best fully automated solution. What we hear in the market is that the K-scape database is fine when in US, but lacking when outside - especially in European countries, we have a better coverage. On top of that, the software includes services to report unidentified discs. Fully automated copying of audio CD's. This is not a main focus point for us, but it is available based on third party meta-data providers, and for various formats. Automated video converter functionalities, where you can either convert your full movie formats to MP4 files for use with mobile devices, DNLA devices, Chromecasts or others, or, it can be used to either directly copy to, or convert to lossless MKV files. Mobile applications for all popular platforms, including iPhone, iPad, Android, Windows Phone and Windows 8. With the exception of Windows Phone, you can on these platforms download converted titles and bring with you, or you can play the titles directly on the mobile device from the solution. Within the next few weeks, you can also on iPhone, iPad and Android play these files on chromecast. There are many other functions in this, but these are the main points where the server solution software, and, the My Movies 5 software differs from what most of you are likely presented to, with the Collection Management program "just" being a data provider for the Control4 system. I think it is an important point in the whole discussion, as this is not about just installing a small piece of softwares, but from our table, it is seen as providing a complete solution, which surely is possible for the advanced DIY'er, but is also complicated enough to not be something that end-users should receive from professionals that do not know what they are dealing with, and cannot support. If you see this entirely as a software for your existing personal PC, I can surely understand why you do not see a good reason for this having to be supplied from a professional. If the solution are to be something that is operateable by your wife, your kids and others, which is the intention of it, things have to be done right, when talking about the complete systems provided - and this is what is currently being provided by several professionals without them knowing what they are dealing with. Closing the API for end-users is just the only tool we have to stop this. This means that if you just want to install and use the base software, you can obviously still do this - you just need to get the license from a dealer - our suggestion would be that you request your dealer to be able to supply you this, just as they can supply you the EV driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnerup Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 ^ Ok.. It hadn't occurred to me *anybody* could become a MM pro for $250.. even the end user.. It's a touch steep, but I could actually wear that, If it would guarantee me a premium service and it was in writing that all the EV/C4/MM integration always worked... So can anybody become a MM Pro ? No - you have to be a company, with a company registration, and you have to have a VAT number if operating in Europe. This is something which is also the case when dealing with EV, and something that all Control4 dealers fits into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wappinghigh Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 PM sent (again).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Binnerup Posted March 10, 2014 Share Posted March 10, 2014 If I want really want to be a DIY guy or CI with MM, is paying $250 or at least finding a dealer who is playing by the rules too much to ask? There are two questions in one here. No, you cannot become a My Movies professional without being a company, that is the whole point here. Ideally, we did not supply the software to the companies that installed 2-3 systems, as the level of knowledge they have is a lot less, but many of these companies have to start somewhere, and if we raised the bar to the level of becoming a Control4 dealer, we would just drive even more professionals to the end-user solutions, at least now where it is available (My Movies 4). Finding a dealer is clearly not too much to ask, but our current partners base the business on building complete solutions, because there have not been a business for your Control4 dealer to re-sell My Movies as just a software license - why would they when you can purchase it yourself? This means that we hope that the Control4 dealers who would like to supply this to their customers join our installer program, but this will only happen by request from the customers. Notice that we are dealing with a My Movies 5 software that is in it's first pre releases.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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