Paulknapp Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Okay, today my installer was here to do an update to my system. (2.1 to 2.5). Additionally, we were adding 2x200s, 1x250, about a dozen switches, dimmers, a couple fan controllers and a garage kit. Needless to say, a big/expensive upgrade. At some point today, in attempting to update the HC1000, they "bricked" it. They moved the project to the new 250 "for now," and said the project manager will get ahold of me tomorrow in regards to what will happen next since it was out of warranty. Here's the question: what should I expect from the company? Should they repair/replace it? What should I ask for if they offer nothing? Some sort of credit toward an 800? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Most dealers have a spare HC1000 or two lying around from customers that have upgraded and asked the dealer to take the old HC away please. I'd imagine they will be able to do a box swap out but your system may perform better on the 250 than the 1000! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel_K Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I would get rid off HC1000 if I was you, HC250 will handle the job with no problem..... We had number of HC1000 dead recently, some of them during upgrade and some of them just didn't come back after reboot ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 You'll be just as happy with the 250 running your project as you would be with the 1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil12011 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 You'll be just as happy with the 250 running your project as you would be with the 1000. I agree with the above statement, but me personally, I would probably offer some type of credit, granted, it was probably not the dealers fault as these things do happen, but if it was on my watch, I probably would have made some concession just for the inconvenience. I haven't noticed performance degradation running a project on a 250 as opposed to a 1000 honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 1. it's not their fault.2. the hardware is well over 2 years old If performance calculator says a 250 is enough, move on.If you'd like an 800 instead of the 250, ask nicely for a discount, but don't expect it for the price of the 250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulknapp Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 Quick update: the project manager called me this morning and ran down all the options I have and made no mention of any concession on their part for any of the options. He very nicely sumarized how much each would cost. The only no cost option was to run the project on the 250, so I asked him if they had run a performace calculation for my project as RAV mentioned--he wasn't familiar with this calculation. A few questions: Is the performace calculator available to me as an owner? Should they be doing this calculation. (I have a pretty big setup) Where can I get an idea of dealer cost for the 250 and 800? I am trying to formulate a reasonable request.BTW: The programmer mentioned that they didn't check the firmware prior to attempting the software update. Could that have caused it to Brick?Thanks!Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 The performance calculator is available to dealers on the KB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmpez Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Ask for an HC800 at 50% the dealer's cost as a concession... seems reasonable to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Where did you buy the 1000 from? Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavel_K Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I don't think any discount is reasonable, these things happens and you would have to update firmware sooner or later anyway. Just run it on HC250 and you will be fine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil12011 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Quick update: the project manager called me this morning and ran down all the options I have and made no mention of any concession on their part for any of the options. He very nicely sumarized how much each would cost. The only no cost option was to run the project on the 250, so I asked him if they had run a performace calculation for my project as RAV mentioned--he wasn't familiar with this calculation. A few questions: Is the performace calculator available to me as an owner? Should they be doing this calculation. (I have a pretty big setup) Where can I get an idea of dealer cost for the 250 and 800? I am trying to formulate a reasonable request.BTW: The programmer mentioned that they didn't check the firmware prior to attempting the software update. Could that have caused it to Brick?Thanks!Paul It sounds like it was just going to happen, updating the OS is pretty straight forward, not a lot of ways you can mess it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Did they try a restore key? Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 You guys are pretty nice & understanding. I wouldn't be so nice. At a minimum I would expect an 800 installed for dealer hardware cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macshack Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I agree, I would ask the dealer to help with some compensation. And as good business practice, I'm surprised the dealer didnt offer anything ... esp considering you have done a large install with them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sacat=0&_from=R40&_nkw=control4+HC1000&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&rt=nc Would indicate the 'value' of the brick if it still worked is somewhere between $50 and $200. Personally I would consider a '$200 off' whatever, the current bill, an new HC800 etc would be fair consideration for the fact that this 1000 is now a brick. CyKnight at one point posted the performance numbers for the 800, 250 here http://www.c4forums.com/topic/14053-hc250-vs-hc800/ I understand the 250 and 1000 are comparable, the HC1000 has anIntel® Atom™ CPU 330 @ 1.60GHz http://www.c4forums.com/topic/7973-hc1000/The HC250 is a 1Gz processor but a newer design than the atom so overall faster. I can't find the 'index rating' for the 1000 which would help benchmark the 1000 vs 250 but anyways, and as the OP is likely experiencing, the system is probably working just great and possibly quicker with the 250 as director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Index for HC1000 is....1000. A 250 in potential is quite a bit weaker as a DIRECTOR than a 1000, although the 500 vs 1000 index rating isn't quite fair due to the 250's more efficient processors and some more efficient process handling, it's still a decent comparison.Understand that if the system calculation comes to 300 index points, that 250 will run it just as well as the 1000, over indexing has little to no value. While a shame, 1000's can die - though a discount on an 800 is not unreasonable at all, out of warranty means just that.Most likely the update isn't even to blame directly, except that it forced a matter (bad ROM, bad HDD, bad power supply) that would have happened eventually. Doing an update makes the director read/write much more in a short span than normal, plus it involves several process restarts and a main unit restart at the least. From a dealer standpoint, there really isn't a whole lot of influence on an update, only two things: the first is it's a bad practice to do an update over the internet if internet connections is very slow or unreliable, the other is interrupting power during one very specific phase of an update. Question is WHY did the HC1000 fail, should you blame your ISP because it's the internet connection, your power company for the brown/black out that had power fail at the wrong time, the network switch manufacturer for a dropped network connection, Control4 because....well for what?, or your dealer because he did one of the two above things. In the rare situation this happens, we certainly try to work with the people affected, and as said - some sort of discounted price isn't unreasonable (let's say, a price that has the dealer not LOSE money directly). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil12011 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Index for HC1000 is....1000. A 250 in potential is quite a bit weaker as a DIRECTOR than a 1000, although the 500 vs 1000 index rating isn't quite fair due to the 250's more efficient processors and some more efficient process handling, it's still a decent comparison.Understand that if the system calculation comes to 300 index points, that 250 will run it just as well as the 1000, over indexing has little to no value. While a shame, 1000's can die - though a discount on an 800 is not unreasonable at all, out of warranty means just that.Most likely the update isn't even to blame directly, except that it forced a matter (bad ROM, bad HDD, bad power supply) that would have happened eventually. Doing an update makes the director read/write much more in a short span than normal, plus it involves several process restarts and a main unit restart at the least. From a dealer standpoint, there really isn't a whole lot of influence on an update, only two things: the first is it's a bad practice to do an update over the internet if internet connections is very slow or unreliable, the other is interrupting power during one very specific phase of an update. Question is WHY did the HC1000 fail, should you blame your ISP because it's the internet connection, your power company for the brown/black out that had power fail at the wrong time, the network switch manufacturer for a dropped network connection, Control4 because....well for what?, or your dealer because he did one of the two above things. In the rare situation this happens, we certainly try to work with the people affected, and as said - some sort of discounted price isn't unreasonable (let's say, a price that has the dealer not LOSE money directly). Word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Index for HC1000 is....1000. A 250 in potential is quite a bit weaker as a DIRECTOR than a 1000, although the 500 vs 1000 index rating isn't quite fair due to the 250's more efficient processors and some more efficient process handling, it's still a decent comparison.Understand that if the system calculation comes to 300 index points, that 250 will run it just as well as the 1000, over indexing has little to no value.So the newer devices should have been the HC500 and HC1300? Thanks for the info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smccray Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Index for HC1000 is....1000. A 250 in potential is quite a bit weaker as a DIRECTOR than a 1000, although the 500 vs 1000 index rating isn't quite fair due to the 250's more efficient processors and some more efficient process handling, it's still a decent comparison.Understand that if the system calculation comes to 300 index points, that 250 will run it just as well as the 1000, over indexing has little to no value. While a shame, 1000's can die - though a discount on an 800 is not unreasonable at all, out of warranty means just that.Most likely the update isn't even to blame directly, except that it forced a matter (bad ROM, bad HDD, bad power supply) that would have happened eventually. Doing an update makes the director read/write much more in a short span than normal, plus it involves several process restarts and a main unit restart at the least. From a dealer standpoint, there really isn't a whole lot of influence on an update, only two things: the first is it's a bad practice to do an update over the internet if internet connections is very slow or unreliable, the other is interrupting power during one very specific phase of an update. Question is WHY did the HC1000 fail, should you blame your ISP because it's the internet connection, your power company for the brown/black out that had power fail at the wrong time, the network switch manufacturer for a dropped network connection, Control4 because....well for what?, or your dealer because he did one of the two above things. In the rare situation this happens, we certainly try to work with the people affected, and as said - some sort of discounted price isn't unreasonable (let's say, a price that has the dealer not LOSE money directly). Equipment can die, and yes it's unfortunate. I had a 300 die and my dealer suggested it was probably a power supply issue. $15 later I was good to go (thank you mouser). I don't put that on the dealer in any way- that's an equipment failure and you're right, the equipment is out of warranty. In this case, the 1000 was running fine. When the dealer touched it it failed. The issue begins and ends there. If there's a configuration problem that kept if from being upgraded, the dealer should have checked that configuration before hitting the button. If it's a C4 issue, the dealer should take that up with control4 and get a concession on the new equipment. I support the dealer model that C4 uses to distribute its products. However, the dealer takes the good (exclusivity) with the bad (you touch it, you broke it). You can point a finger at the ISP or anything else- that's your prerogative. Perhaps I'm a simpleton, but it was running fine before the dealer touched it. The dealer started messing with the system and a piece of equipment bricked. If the dealer is the expert, the dealer screwed up either by doing something incorrectly or by omitting something important. If the dealer isn't any expert, well then that's a different discussion, but non-experts don't get $150 per hour labor rates. Said another way, $hit happens and the professional takes care of it. If I'm being charged expert rates, I expect professional service. No excuses. No finger pointing. You take care of my problem I call you again for the next one. You point fingers and explain to me why I should pay you more money to fix a problem that you caused? Guess what happens... I had a minor issue with my current dealer. I got irritated because someone screwed up, either the dealer or the dealer's recommended alarm company. The dealer took care of it, solved the problem, and no one handed me an invoice. I don't know who paid for the special trip to the house and frankly I don't care. I imagine it was paid for out of margin on the project. Total invoices were ~$12K worth of work and I'm not surprised that something minor went wrong. If I hadn't been in the details of the project I'm certain I wouldn't be aware of the problem. If I had been handed an extra invoice because of someone else's mistake I wouldn't have been happy. As a result of how the dealer handled the situation I'm happy and the dealer will certainly be called again. Then again, perhaps I'm unreasonable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 I'd still like to know where he got the 1000 in the first place. That would play a part in what i did for the customer if i was his dealer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulknapp Posted May 20, 2014 Author Share Posted May 20, 2014 I purchased the 1000 from the same dealer as part of a 40k whole house install about 4 yrs ago. This is the second major update since then, putting the total spent with this dealer in the 50k+ range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mstafford388 Posted May 20, 2014 Share Posted May 20, 2014 Yeah, we would def help you out if you bought it from us like that. Just yesterday i went to a customers house, and his zone 2 on his yamaha was dead. Its a few years old and we can get it repaired. Instead of just yanking that thing out, i brought a spare receiver we had at the office and programmed it in temporarily so he didn't lose the functionality in his main zone. Our company policy is we warranty all of our stuff for 1 year and he is past 2. He is a great customer though and has referred several friends so we aren't charging him. This all comes back to having a great relationship with your dealer. Cant say it enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamT Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Paul, I would agree that some kind of discount would be good IF you are a good customer (as you say) just to keep you happy. That being said...... When you say "bricked" please define that. Does the 1000 power up at all? If it does power up, what does the display that is hooked up to it say or do? What is the pattern of the LED's on the front? Does your router give it an IP? I think a lot of info is needed to say what happened. I have done many updates and have seen many controllers not boot up after a reboot. Its a power supply or cap issue in all electronic devices just as I have had many PC's run for years and when power was removed or a reboot was done BAM no workie. As far as the dealer being responsible I disagree. Like I said he should try to keep you happy but again, many variables. Not trying to be insulting but there are a bunch of customers of mine that have paid on time, bought a bunch of gear year after year, taken recommendations when I have offered and so on. Then there are customers that are the opposite. I do treat them differently, I think most dealers do. Now you have an old controller (I don't think you mentioned how old it was, that's important too) that has been running constantly similar to a PC. Is the environment controller friendly? Good venting, little to no dust and dirt, and you paying for regular maintenance? Since you are running 2.1 I am assuming your dealer hasn't been there for a while and that could be because he hasn't reached out to you, he hasn't expressed the importance of maintenance, or when he offered you maybe turned him down because you didn't want to pay for it, and again I am not placing blame. So I don't think this, or many issues are cut and dry when someone is trying to tell their story. I like to tell people there are three sides to every story. My side, your side and what really happened. No blaming, just my view. I really don't think it is reasonable for you to think this old controller got damaged by your dealer (and basically slamming your dealer) but some dealers just plain suck too. I don't know the dealer so I cant say anything on that side of things. I do think If someone spent money with me, from $5 to $500,000 I try to treat them the same with good workmanship, good customer service and an honest answer on situations and I would try to figure something out [depending on the situation again] I would question the update and the introduction of more old controllers (2x200's) to the system and the reasoning behind that vs. new(er) controllers but I don't know the layout of your home. I do think there is more to this story but maybe your dealer is an ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godzilla Posted May 21, 2014 Share Posted May 21, 2014 Sounds like coincidence and u should buy a new controller....shit happensOr go on eBay and buy another 1000 for 200 bucksThe fact ur system has been running well for years with him as ur dealer sounds to me like he knows what he's doing...and is fair, I'm sure he feels bad but was most likely out of his control Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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