#####GAME OVER####

[wappinghigh]

Wow.. My interpretation of this interview (and it may well be wrong: but anyway...)  My reading of this interview is that the CEO is basically saying Control4's business is their SDK.. (hence the comment about all the 7000 devices etc).. and in the same interview is saying Apple will get a similar SDK right.. This is the CEO talking here..  I mean correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this huge??? 

[pstuart]

Right, Apple is known for eliminating all competition and being the ONLY player in ANY space.

 

Seriously...  Nothing exists yet other than plans and a name.  Apple hasn't dominated any space they are in, let alone eliminated all the competition.  Heck Ford couldn't even do it 100 years ago.

 

There is NO market that has eliminated all competition just because a big name announced they are entering the market.

 

Plus, will any of these announcements make anything you already have stop working?

 

It took Apple 3 years to really gain a foothold in the mobile space with the iPhone, after backing off two key strategies...  No apps and no Windows iTunes. Three Years!!!  It took them almost 5 more to remove the dependency on iTunes to sync a iphone.

 

Apple does not move quick.  I will be shocked if there is anything viable, competitive or even a threat to the existing HA market within 2 years from Apple.

 

Please think about how hard it is to get simple devices to talk to each other, somehow Apple will solve this easily?  Not going to happen, plus they don't have the in home infrastructure to support HA devices in the home.  Test it, call Apple and tell them the Apple TV remote isn't working, see how good they are in solving that issue.  They will tell you to take it to an Apple store.  Good luck doing that with an outlet, switch, dimmer, lock, etc.

 

I'm happy Apple is talking HA, its good for the overall market, but they are not a threat today to any existing HA vendor. 

[SMHarman]

Stuart, I just said the same on another forum!

Apple are rarely early to market with an innovation, rather picks up the pieces and puts them together and improves the UI.

Take the iPod. Prior to that there was the Diamond Rio, the Creative NOMAD, Archeos Jukebox. This is 1998-2000. It was 2001 when the iPod came along and the first iPod looks pretty clunky and did not work if you were a PC. Gen2 worked on a PC with Musicmatch jukebox.

Apple bought soundjam then renamed it itunes and it was a game changer in 2001 when it was introduced, though it took until October 2003 before it was PC (and Gen3 Ipods and the need for a Firewire card).

Again, the iPhone. My SE c905 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C905 had better functionality in a smaller form factor than a first gen iPhone. I could send picture messages, I could video call. I had an 8MP camera with a xenon flash, auto rotate, java gaming, exchange active sync, track id) The only thing I did not have was large touch screen and personally I can still text faster on T9 than a touch keyboard, swype etc.

And so on.

So Apple has finally decided that there is enough activity in the HA space to enter it, which means that it matured into cutting edge products about 3 years ago which was about when IP started becoming more commonplace as a control system, replacing serial (thats my gut feel anyway).

Again, with sufficient investment from Apple it will take another 3 years of development from them so iOS11 to get this to great, just as it took 3 years to get from introduced to great for iPod/ITMS. Thing is, with ITMS, Apple took a vig on any music track sold. Where is Apples vig in the HA space.

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[digitaltrader]

Right, Apple is known for eliminating all competition and being the ONLY player in ANY space.

Seriously... Nothing exists yet other than plans and a name. Apple hasn't dominated any space they are in, let alone eliminated all the competition. Heck Ford couldn't even do it 100 years ago.

There is NO market that has eliminated all competition just because a big name announced they are entering the market.

Plus, will any of these announcements make anything you already have stop working?

It took Apple 3 years to really gain a foothold in the mobile space with the iPhone, after backing off two key strategies... No apps and no Windows iTunes. Three Years!!! It took them almost 5 more to remove the dependency on iTunes to sync a iphone.

Apple does not move quick. I will be shocked if there is anything viable, competitive or even a threat to the existing HA market within 2 years from Apple.

Please think about how hard it is to get simple devices to talk to each other, somehow Apple will solve this easily? Not going to happen, plus they don't have the in home infrastructure to support HA devices in the home. Test it, call Apple and tell them the Apple TV remote isn't working, see how good they are in solving that issue. They will tell you to take it to an Apple store. Good luck doing that with an outlet, switch, dimmer, lock, etc.

I'm happy Apple is talking HA, its good for the overall market, but they are not a threat today to any existing HA vendor.

And you think C4 will be able to act nimble and react quickly to this threat? Microsoft had a commanding lead on the iPhone with its windows CE devices. Where's Microsoft now in the mobile space? Remember even Microsoft with its billions in cash couldn't change its course fast enough.

[pstuart]

The Jesus phone didn't kill off all the competition, it just created a new generation of the cult of mac.

[cdepaola]

The Jesus phone didn't kill off all the competition, it just created a new generation of the cult of mac.

Like there isn't a Cult of Android or Cult of Blackberry? Come on...

Apple and Google/Samsung didn't kill off the competition but the condition is their little bitches. These guys will dominate or buy out the competition if they think the possible profits justify it. They do this because they can...

Honestly I wish they would all go away and we would go back to dumb phones. Th technology explosion has gotten out of control. We are toddlers playing with big kid toys, we have no idea what were doing and it's going to bite us in the ass.

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[qVAMPIREp]

The Jesus phone didn't kill off all the competition, it just created a new generation of the cult of mac.

Apple won't corner the entire market but they will definitely change it forever for the better. The problem is Control4 currently brings a knife to a gun fight... Their entire Dealer model is as "Dead as a Shit House Rat" in this future. It's an outdated way of thinking, an anachronism of the last Century when technology was beyond the grasp of most people. Those that stick with it will find their market share continually shrink year over year over year like they are near the edge of a Black Hole.

[AK1]

Apple won't corner the entire market but they will definitely change it forever for the better. The problem is Control4 currently brings a knife to a gun fight... Their entire Dealer model is as "Dead as a Shit House Rat" in this future. It's an outdated way of thinking, an anachronism of the last Century when technology was beyond the grasp of most people. Those that stick with it will find their market share continually shrink year over year over year like they are near the edge of a Black Hole.

Absolutely correct, qVAMPIREp

[msgreenf]

I still think everyone is wrong that the dealer model is dead. It's not for everyone, especially us on this forum, but my parents would throw this shit out if they had it and didn't have a dealer...

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[qVAMPIREp]

I still think everyone is wrong that the dealer model is dead. It's not for everyone, especially us on this forum, but my parents would throw this shit out if they had it and didn't have a dealer...

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The "Dealer Only" model is definitely dead, Control4 needs to embrace the DIY community while it still can. Give away ComposerPro for free to those that want it and sell hardware like Apple does (On their website and through Dealers with a fixed MSRP). Everybody wins and Control4 gains an entirely new enthusiastic group of customers. I only want a Dealer for the hard stuff, or be able to get help on a forum such as this

[Tokead]

I wouldn't say the dealer model is dead: it's alive and well in the auto business. There's just options, such as brokers and independent mechanics as valid options.

C4 needs to figure out how to support both: we don't go to Microsoft for support when the OS crashes so why should C4 build the capacity to support DIY. The dealers could become the MSCE's and have the opportunity to build relationships and upsell. Maybe fewer of them but better educated than some current geek dealers.

I'd like to see the small guy survive and continue to innovate (hopefully)

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[cdepaola]

I wouldn't say the dealer model is dead: it's alive and well in the auto business. There's just options, such as brokers and independent mechanics as valid options.

C4 needs to figure out how to support both: we don't go to Microsoft for support when the OS crashes so why should C4 build the capacity to support DIY. The dealers could become the MSCE's and have the opportunity to build relationships and upsell. Maybe fewer of them but better educated than some current geek dealers.

I'd like to see the small guy survive and continue to innovate (hopefully)

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That dealer only model is alive for now... Elon Musk is pushing them with Tesla's direct sales. Granted the auto dealer lobby is very strong and not going anywhere right now, but we are all living in an age where boundaries are being pushed and new ideas are bring formulated everywhere. I think things are going to be very different in 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years.

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[zaphod]

The dealer based high end market will remain but it will get smaller as these products become more accessible to the end user.  But with the way technology is now moving the DIY type of proucts that come out are often better and cheaper than what is available at the "high end".

 

Thermostats are a perfect example of this.  C4 had a thermostat - but you need an expensive controller and if you want to access it away from home then you need a 4sight sub.  But Nest releases a thermostat that is a "DIY" product, you can control it from your phone and you don't need to pay $$ per month to use it over the net.  The Nest t-stat was better looking and smarter than the C4 t-stat even though it is a DIY product.  I would argue that other products in lighting, Chamerberlains's MyQ garage door, the Irrigation Caddy, etc are similar to the Nest.

 

Smartphones and PCs are also similar these days.  It used to be that you had a more powerful PC at work and you had a smartphone (Blackberry) for work that was far better than your personal device.  But that usually isn't the case today as devices are cheap and it is easier for consumers to switch to the latest/greatest hardware than it is for businesses. In the same way it is easier for a new DIY device to be better in many ways than a legacy C4 device.

 

Even if Apple just grouped these apps together, like Passbook, it would have value for most users.  But I suspect there will be a decent amount of interoperability, some of which is available today using apps like IFTTT which will only improve over time.  And I will be able to buy the products at Best Buy or Home Depot and take them back if I don't like them.  Far more user friendly than the dealer model.

[RyanE]

Far more user friendly than the dealer model.

 

(for customers who think exactly like you).

 

RyanE

[pstuart]

The dealer model needs to change, it needs to be a more open, consultative model, not a lock out from access to purchasing equipment.  If, and only if Apple allows people to go into Apple Stores or Online and order all the HA equipment directly, would it be a threat to the existing dealer model.

 

However, there will always be a need for trained, experienced HA consultants and installers.  Nothing Apple will come out with, will install itself... Yet.  I am waiting for the device that can unbox itself and just work

 

I think there are multiple debates at the core of this.  C4 can clearly capitalize on the move to the self install HA market, which I think is different then DIY.  The self install world is what Apple wants to create.  Devices that just work, without major programming.  DIY is you replace the trained installer / programmer and do it yourself (duh?)...

 

C4 really can't move fast enough at self installable products, but the SDDP and open driver platform gets it much closer. 

 

One thing after spending quite a bit of time with Homekit specs, is it doesn't really specify any type of security model for adding devices to the home.  At least C4 is a bit more secure using a Zigbee mesh, but even this needs to change eventually if it will ever allow simple adding of devices.

 

At the core of this is the debate of the "Internet of Things" vs Home Automation.  We are a long way off before you just buy appliances like coffee makers at similar prices that are IP enabled, and just work with other devices.  The current state of this market is like Doc Brown's lab at the beginning of Back to the Future that opens and serves dog food.  Yes, Apple can make this easier, but its still dog food.

 

Anyway, for those that are ready to jump in with Apple, send me your unneeded C4 gear, I'll find a home for it, since you think its dead.  PM me for shipping information.

[zaphod]

(for customers who think exactly like you).

 

RyanE

Think of buying a Philips Hue lighting starter kit.  The DIY story is that I I buy it at BB for $200, come home, screw in the blubs, plug the hub into my LAN and download the app on my phone.

 

If I wanted the C4 version of Philips Hue then I would have to call my dealer,  He would send me a quote for the hardware and his services including a markup on the hardware (likley WAY more than BB's markup).  Maybe he gets back to me in a day or so, maybe he ignores me (see another thread on the first page).  Once he finally gets back to me I determine whether it is still worthwhile I then schedule him to come some time in the next few weeks to do the install and I am way down on his priority list since this is just a few hundred dollar item.  It ends up costing way more and takes so much longer.

[pstuart]

Zaphod, your argument is a perfect example of the integration of the internet of things vs Home automation.  Getting your Hue lights to turn on when a door opens, or motion is sensed, or flash if the alarm is disarmed isn't possible off the shelf.

 

Having a remote control for a light bulb isn't anything new, it also isn't HA, and should never require a dealer. 

[msgreenf]

The dealer based high end market will remain but it will get smaller as these products become more accessible to the end user. But with the way technology is now moving the DIY type of proucts that come out are often better and cheaper than what is available at the "high end".

Thermostats are a perfect example of this. C4 had a thermostat - but you need an expensive controller and if you want to access it away from home then you need a 4sight sub. But Nest releases a thermostat that is a "DIY" product, you can control it from your phone and you don't need to pay $$ per month to use it over the net. The Nest t-stat was better looking and smarter than the C4 t-stat even though it is a DIY product. I would argue that other products in lighting, Chamerberlains's MyQ garage door, the Irrigation Caddy, etc are similar to the Nest.

Smartphones and PCs are also similar these days. It used to be that you had a more powerful PC at work and you had a smartphone (Blackberry) for work that was far better than your personal device. But that usually isn't the case today as devices are cheap and it is easier for consumers to switch to the latest/greatest hardware than it is for businesses. In the same way it is easier for a new DIY device to be better in many ways than a legacy C4 device.

Even if Apple just grouped these apps together, like Passbook, it would have value for most users. But I suspect there will be a decent amount of interoperability, some of which is available today using apps like IFTTT which will only improve over time. And I will be able to buy the products at Best Buy or Home Depot and take them back if I don't like them. Far more user friendly than the dealer model.

But do you want 12 apps to control everything or one? Do you want all your point solutions to talk to each other? The power of iot is everything talking and working together. Not individual closed eco systems

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[ericscales]

But do you want 12 apps to control everything or one? Do you want all your point solutions to talk to each other? The power of iot is everything talking and working together. Not individual closed eco systems

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Exactly! I have piles of apps I could use, but I made a sizable investment in control4 for the integration and automation aspects (well that and the lighting, AV, etc)

Some people will be satisfied with using their multiple apps or even a Passbook like style.

I won't and I suspect those are not the customers control4 is after.

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[CFUG]

I support posts #69 & 70.

 

Aside from that, if Control4 opened-up their phone lines to consumers, it wouldn't be a swift process to get results.  Every call would take multiple times longer to complete due to the ignorance of consumers.  Who would want to work the Tech lines there?  Not me...

[urbanmark]

I hear the point about one app - that's absolutely what I want.  BUT, I have almost a full screen of apps for things Control4 either can't control or controls poorly.   I'm guessing those companies will be developing for Homekit before they develop for C4. 

[zaphod]

Zaphod, your argument is a perfect example of the integration of the internet of things vs Home automation.  Getting your Hue lights to turn on when a door opens, or motion is sensed, or flash if the alarm is disarmed isn't possible off the shelf.

 

Having a remote control for a light bulb isn't anything new, it also isn't HA, and should never require a dealer. 

Actually some of these things are off the shelf, or at least they are if you consider the app IFTTT.

 

See here:  https://ifttt.com/recipes?channel=hue

 

You can even make the lights flash when your favorite team scores a goal/point.

[cdepaola]

Zaphod, your argument is a perfect example of the integration of the internet of things vs Home automation. Getting your Hue lights to turn on when a door opens, or motion is sensed, or flash if the alarm is disarmed isn't possible off the shelf.

Having a remote control for a light bulb isn't anything new, it also isn't HA, and should never require a dealer.

We are at the beginning of this, give it 5 years and it will be possible off the shelf. IFTTT will be acquired by someone and added to their off the shelf products. It will also become far more complex with ibeacon and indoor location sensing.

In business and investing decision making you don't look at what's being done now, you look at what's coming. What's coming is mass market automation it's not a question of if it's a question of how quickly. The technology is moving at hyper speed now and it's not going to slow down.

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[zaphod]

I hear the point about one app - that's absolutely what I want.  BUT, I have almost a full screen of apps for things Control4 either can't control or controls poorly.   I'm guessing those companies will be developing for Homekit before they develop for C4. 

Exactly - the hope is that with HomeKit these will all be within one app, or at least it could be a master app to start other apps.  Like when I press Lighting it would then go to the Hue app, when I press Garage Door it goes to MyQ, or irrigation and it will launch the IrrigationCaddy app.

[msgreenf]

Exactly - the hope is that with HomeKit these will all be within one app, or at least it could be a master app to start other apps. Like when I press Lighting it would then go to the Hue app, when I press Garage Door it goes to MyQ, or irrigation and it will launch the IrrigationCaddy app.

Homekit is an API. It's not likely to be one app. More like it's own eco system.

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