Anzir Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I didn't want to continue posting off-topic in that StartHere thread, so I thought I would open a new one. I just ran across this article that was written in defense of the Control4 stock, but shows a really good overview of the HA landscape and future challenges for Control4. I have to say I'm a fan of Control4, I just hope I can get it to make sense in my new home build. http://www.cepro.com/article/why_seeking_alpha_is_so_wrong_in_bashing_control4_home_automation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qVAMPIREp Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Gotta post the original article as well... read it and weep... We've been sayin' it for YEARS!!! http://seekingalpha.com/article/2963256-control4-no-control-of-its-destiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I like the folks at CE pro but they clearly are not analysts or institutional investors. I don't think they get that folks like Seeking Alpha are the ones that will now make or break Control4. It's no longer about how great a product it is, which it is, it's about profits. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Very true, but SA's reasoning about WHY C4 isn't profitable (long term) is what the CEPro article goes against. It talks about it's opinion on the SA article being inaccurate on where C4's competition is at. Regardless of which one you agree with - the CEPro article is mainly pointing out where it disagrees on the technological level, on whether or not DIY is even a factor - not about profitability or growth as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Very true, but SA's reasoning about WHY C4 isn't profitable (long term) is what the CEPro article goes against. It talks about it's opinion on the SA article being inaccurate on where C4's competition is at. Regardless of which one you agree with - the CEPro article is mainly pointing out where it disagrees on the technological level, on whether or not DIY is even a factor - not about profitability or growth as such. Yes, and I agree with some of their arguments from a technical standpoint. However they discount Apple and Google a bit too much. While HomeKit it mostly non-existent right now I don't think you can assume that its going to stay that way. I would in fact argue that you should be assuming its going to be a huge competitor. The same goes for their Statement that Nest isn't a competitor because they aren't an automation company when its fairly obvious that they are also moving in the same direction. In this day and age these guys want to see development, they want new shiny products, they want them quickly, and they want profit. Watching the sector I believe Crestron is the one killing it on those metrics. I think its starting to be clear that they are also going after Control4. I'm a huge C4 advocate and I tout the product every place I go. However I firmly believe going Public was a HUGE risk that may not pay off. Its very interesting times, thats for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterwilson Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Julie Jacobsen is one of C4's biggest cheerleaders. I don't remember the last time I ever saw her write negatively about C4, correct me if I am wrong. We can argue about business models, DIY, subscriptions, app store's etc., but take a look at CTRL's stock price. I think a 1 year chart should give you a good idea of it's current trajectory. C4 needs to change it's mindset. I have yet to receive a response from them on a simple question (what is the MSRP of there new products). Once they become a customer focused product instead of a dealer focused, maybe things change. The ultimate penny wise, pound foolish company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I just had a meeting with a C4 dealer that my friend was referred to by his builder - 30k budget gets him his house wired (cat5), about 5 dimmers and 2 "system TVs" ( he buys TVs and receivers) with 4 audio zones. My friend had a panic attack obviously. How much profit will C4 make when a 30k project gets people nothing? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterwilson Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes, and I agree with some of their arguments from a technical standpoint. However they discount Apple and Google a bit too much. While HomeKit it mostly non-existent right now I don't think you can assume that its going to stay that way. I would in fact argue that you should be assuming its going to be a huge competitor. The same goes for their Statement that Nest isn't a competitor because they aren't an automation company when its fairly obvious that they are also moving in the same direction. In this day and age these guys want to see development, they want new shiny products, they want them quickly, and they want profit. Watching the sector I believe Crestron is the one killing it on those metrics. I think its starting to be clear that they are also going after Control4. I'm a huge C4 advocate and I tout the product every place I go. However I firmly believe going Public was a HUGE risk that may not pay off. Its very interesting times, thats for sure. Going public was about cashing out investors in a hot IPO market. The risk shifted to shareholders, the Board of Directors has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. The current CEO did well in cashing out his investors, but has *ONLY* lost money for his shareholders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 I just had a meeting with a C4 dealer that my friend was referred to by his builder - 30k budget gets him his house wired (cat5), about 5 dimmers and 2 "system TVs" ( he buys TVs and receivers) with 4 audio zones. My friend had a panic attack obviously. How much profit will C4 make when a 30k project gets people nothing? Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkHow much of that is actually for c4 gear? Structured wiring is probably a big chunk of that $$Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 He priced the dimmers at 300 each...The structured wiring was 15kSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Going public was about cashing out investors in a hot IPO market. The risk shifted to shareholders, the Board of Directors has a fiduciary responsibility to its shareholders. The current CEO did well in cashing out his investors, but has *ONLY* lost money for his shareholders.I should have known better when I had system installed. A company where the senior guys have nothing invested means they have no incentive to do anything.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 He priced the dimmers at 300 each...The structured wiring was 15kSent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Is this new construction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troyfrezze Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 He priced the dimmers at 300 each...The structured wiring was 15kSent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's some serious markup! Dimmer's, even the newer adaptive phase dimmers don't cost that much or even close to that much! As for that wiring, even at CAT6 cable, plus connectors and boots or in wall connectors, boxes and faceplates I could do a standard 5000 SQ foot house for several hundred to a few thousand at most dependent upon length and number of runs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzir Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 He priced the dimmers at 300 each...The structured wiring was 15kSent from my iPhone using TapatalkGosh, are there any other dealers around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Agree prices seem high Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Gosh, are there any other dealers around?He is stuck with this one because of his builder - builder works with this particular dealer so no negotiating etc. I recommended contacting people through this forum but he might just chuck the entire project and just get the house structural wiring done.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 My guess is that builder is marking up too - but yeah that seems on the high end to say the least, though it also depends if install of the devices etc is also included (still...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anzir Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share Posted March 17, 2015 He is stuck with this one because of his builder - builder works with this particular dealer so no negotiating etc. I recommended contacting people through this forum but he might just chuck the entire project and just get the house structural wiring done.Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat sounds like a plan. Get the wiring done properly with the end result in mind, bring the C4 install afterwards.This points to why I specifically interviewed builders to see if they were comfortable with subs that I would include in the bid process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 A company where the senior guys have nothing invested means they have no incentive to do anything. Yet that's the majority of CEOs. Then again - what makes you think that the board of directors isn't invested? I will claim no specific knowledge on the division of stock - but I strongly suspect where a very large portion of stock resides... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yes, and I agree with some of their arguments from a technical standpoint. However they discount Apple and Google a bit too much. While HomeKit it mostly non-existent right now I don't think you can assume that its going to stay that way. I would in fact argue that you should be assuming its going to be a huge competitor. The same goes for their Statement that Nest isn't a competitor because they aren't an automation company when its fairly obvious that they are also moving in the same direction. In this day and age these guys want to see development, they want new shiny products, they want them quickly, and they want profit. Watching the sector I believe Crestron is the one killing it on those metrics. I think its starting to be clear that they are also going after Control4. I'm a huge C4 advocate and I tout the product every place I go. However I firmly believe going Public was a HUGE risk that may not pay off. Its very interesting times, thats for sure. Oh I wasn't saying I AGREE with the arguments (or all of them, completely) - just pointing out that the article wasn't about profitability as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qVAMPIREp Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 Yet that's the majority of CEOs. Then again - what makes you think that the board of directors isn't invested? I will claim no specific knowledge on the division of stock - but I strongly suspect where a very large portion of stock resides... Look at the timing of their stock exists listed in the article... they have effectively abandoned ship!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitneyd Posted March 17, 2015 Share Posted March 17, 2015 http://www.compunetworkinc.com/Shop_Control4.html. Retail prices Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokead Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 I just had a meeting with a C4 dealer that my friend was referred to by his builder - 30k budget gets him his house wired (cat5), about 5 dimmers and 2 "system TVs" ( he buys TVs and receivers) with 4 audio zones. My friend had a panic attack obviously. How much profit will C4 make when a 30k project gets people nothing? Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkWithout knowing the house and actual specs, that's steep. It's also typical of some of the quotes I got. Wiring 400 sq ft house with cat 6 for phone and network, rg6 for cable and speakers to 8 rooms $5-8,0005 dimmers $1200HC800 $2000HC250 for second TV $1000Control 4 4 zone amp $2000 (WAG) I paid $300 for 8 zone ampProgramming $100/hr. That's a simple set up so couple of hours. This is just from my experience. A lack of MSRP doesn't helpSent from my iPad using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdepaola Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The wiring cost on a new construction is generally ridiculous. It's done by the lowest paid folks on the job site and the wire is a fraction of the cost of the high voltage. I just had a complete rewire, high voltage, of a 3500sqft home with conduit done for 8k. That's by a licensed electrician who's hourly rate is considerably higher then a low voltage guy. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c4user3622 Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 That sounds like a plan. Get the wiring done properly with the end result in mind, bring the C4 install afterwards.This points to why I specifically interviewed builders to see if they were comfortable with subs that I would include in the bid process.Thats how I did it - hired my own sub for the automation part. Most people don't want the hassle - they just want to know what the price is and then get stuck with paying too much for what they get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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