Parallel Universe

[wappinghigh]

Sometimes I come on here and I wonder if I am in a "parallel universe..."

You know when you have migrated onto a "clone site" that looks like the real thing (but isn't)....

But this is the real thing. It's the consumer/ end user forum. And yes. The dealers have their own...

Still I guess with all the fake news around it's hard to know what's real from what isn't...

I tell you what's real in my opinion....

Control4 is an awesome product. I love it. And for what it does (when it;'s working) It's a great thing to have as a HA backbone in my home....

But it has to be struggling about what to do with it's dealer only model. Not with the concept in general (which I happen to support big time)  but the specifics of how it operates...

You just can't go out into the big wide world of 21C retail without making that (what appears to me) obvious conclusion... 

Yet somehow it's me who is always made to be feel like I'm the drunk and with all the weird attitudes..

Oh well. 

There are folks who think all sorts of religious things or pseudo scientific potions, or main stream media stories are fact, or so called "soft science" is a proven given as well.. in all faiths and disciplines... 

I'll leave it at that.

You've no doubt had enough of me (again) so this time I'm checking out for some considerable time....

Rock on Control4 

 

[msgreenf]

Funny I feel like you are the one from a parallel universe

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[mallom]

Funny I feel like you are the one from a parallel universe

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Hahahahhaha!!

[knowitall]

The dealer only model is to keep people like you from calling into tech support 

[sonic30101]

So earth 2 has bizzaro wap? A vegan yogi that has denounced all technology and alcohol. Resorts to essential oils and kale for all ailments

[prabeau]

OOoooooooooh no not again!

 

[Shivam Paw]

At least I understood most of this post. But I got lost 3/4 of the way through.  

[Larry]

But there is a serious issue with regards to end-users, who might well have spent a lot of money on their system, not being able to call C4 directly for technical support.

Maybe your questions and level of knowledge required to arrive at a solution exceed the skills of the dealer's tech.  And since an end-user is only allowed to have one dealer registered, it is not very convenient to switch dealers (it's a serious commitment).   Maybe you need an answer immediately.  Maybe you don't want the dealer involved, because you are considering switching dealers, or are having a contractual dispute with the dealer over something else and want to keep your distance.

Maybe you can't stand all the technical facts that get "lost in translation" as you explain your issues to the tech, and (s)he explains to the C4 support person, and then the chain runs in reverse.  I have "solved" this particular problem by forcing the dealer tech to make  support calls on speakerphone with me in the room ... and I jump in!

It's great to have this forum, for sure, but it should not be the only answer.  C4 must face this issue.  Every other industry has.   Typical solutions make use of four support lines.

1. General public, most likely consumers evaluating C4 over other systems ... the recorded messages push the caller to Web info and FAQs, canned recorded FAQs, etc., but if you need to talk to someone you can.  Hey C4, it's called "sales and marketing".

2. No-charge support line for valid customers, a customer Account # is needed.  Again, the recorded messages push the caller to use his or her dealer, etc.  And hold times might be on the long side.  And some questions are answered with "you must involve your dealer".  But still, it's there.

3. Support for end-users available for a fee.  Typically an annual "premium" support fee.  It could be included in 4Sight annual subscriptions, C4 already has the annual subscription model in the business operations, so this would be easy from that standpoint.  And they could service it precisely with the dealer support line, so it just means hiring more people, covered by the annual fees.  Heck, it could become a profit center.

4. The dealer-only support line (this already exists, no issue).

If C4 thinks they can avoid this they are mistaken, and if they continue to stiff-arm end-users, even high-end business will drift to WiFi solutions, think Nest and Ring, now each owned by one of the two tech giants, slugging it out over whether you control you house by saying "alexa" or "ok google".  And yes, these solutions have terrible tech support, which is why the high-end stays with the dealer-model, but once dealers go down the WiFi route and add premium install/support services, watch out! 

I spent a lot of money on C4, in two town homes.  I got brilliant, programmable lighting automation, really fantastic.  Very satisfied.  No more half-hots and other nonsense -- more than 40 years ago at school, engineering professors were explaining that physical connections between switches and the devices they control were stupid, the connections should all be virtual through some kind of non-blocking matrix switch.  But early systems like X-10 went in the wrong direction, simply adding programming and remote control on top of the physical connections.  So I love C4.  And my wife, also a computer programmer, loves it too -- she grok'd the virtual connection paradigm in a few seconds (once I explained what "load" meant), and is better than I am at configuring it (she is also way better-looking and smarter).  WAF is important in the real-world!  Again, I love C4.

But due to dealer support issues, I have held off adding AV, HVAC, Security, Garage Door, etc. all of which would be easy.  When the second town home comes on-line I will finally switch to a remote-support dealer from this forum.  But if I could have worked with C4 tech directly I would be way down the total integration path.  The C4 garbage plug-in outlet controllers made lamps a failure, and the worse-than-garbage front-door solution from C4 taught me NOT to install it in town home #2, I went with a non-integrated solution instead.  I would have paid for tech support.  This is simply not in conflict with requiring dealers for installation, binding of new devices, etc.

C4 -- think.  Please.

[knowitall]

CONTROL4—HEADQUARTERS

11734 S. Election Road

Salt Lake City, UT 84020

T. 1-888-400-4070 (toll free)

T. 801-523-3100

F. 801-523-3199

 

they will absolutely support you- by helping find a dealer that is worth a shit. 

There is absolutely no way C4 could or would ever put a customer tech support line together. C4 gear makes up maybe 10-15% of a full automation install, you expect them to trouble shoot wiring, connections, TVs, AVRs, security systems, 3rd party lights, shades, streaming devices, etc? This is the same reason 90% of dealers are weary of taking over projects  

its a dealer model because they are the ones that are supposed to do that. 

You want to pay for a service plan? We would love you as a client and accept your money and provide a maintenance / support package. 

We have a 24/7 on call hotline. 

 

If you really want to help, Report the awful dealers to C4

[Larry]

Very interesting reply.  I didn't think of the 10-to-15% argument, and I see your point.  I will dedicate myself to finding the right on-line/remote dealer as soon as the second system is on-line and that dealer has done all covered warranty work, etc.  See you in 2019!

Instead of reporting the dealer, because I have grown to like him personally,  I am taking great pains to explain to him what went wrong, why I am leaving him, and to suggest he invest in more training for certain of his techs.

Back to C4 Support ... so your reply knocks out my #1 and #2.  And I see why #3 could be better done by a dealer ... but C4 does not help much in dealer selection, they only recommend by zip code.  If the end-user already pays for a 4Sight annual subscription, would it hurt them to allow says 4 annual calls to their dealer support line, just in case you don't want to work with the dealer?  Maybe make it a $100 add-on option?  And they could also recommend remote dealers in a more focused way, depending on the user needs and such.  I wouldn't even know about the remote dealer concept except for this forum.

[Brownbatsbreath]

That’s the thing. If you’d report your difficulties with your dealer to Control4 they COULD work with said dealer to improve or eliminate them as a dealer. 

Its cool that you like them, and I totally understand, but shadowing them on tech support calls and allowing them to muddle along makes it impossible for C4 to do what you requested above. Which is improve the quality of their dealer base. 

Also if you call tech support as an end user, they’ll say, ok open composer... which you don’t have. If they allow you to have it, which will be the next argument, you won’t know how to use it. So do they train you on composer during the same call? Eh...

[South Africa C4 user]

@wappinghigh - I was more than half way through your post and wanted to hit like... only to get to the last third or so and realize you are right... I am in a parallel universe... one where I have little clue what your conclusion was...

But, as you say, rock on C4,

[Larry]

Good points @Brownbatsbreath.  You're right, I forgot about the difference in power between Composer HE and real Composer.  Doesn't do me any good to call tech support if the answer requires Composer.  And I understand the model of Composer vs Composer HE ... standard in the software industry (only re-sellers get the complete package, etc.).

Still I would pay extra on my 4Sight subscription for a few direct calls per year, even if I got the answer "sorry, you can't do it in HE".

[msgreenf]

Good points [mention=136558]Brownbatsbreath[/mention].  You're right, I forgot about the difference in power between Composer HE and real Composer.  Doesn't do me any good to call tech support if the answer requires Composer.  And I understand the model of Composer vs Composer HE ... standard in the software industry (only re-sellers get the complete package, etc.).
Still I would pay extra on my 4Sight subscription for a few direct calls per year, even if I got the answer "sorry, you can't do it in HE".

No you would then complain that you're paying for support yet you can't get help.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[knowitall]

Control4 will do more than just recommend by a zip code if you have an issue.   

I have been approached by our rep saying hey we have an issue with a client that dealer X did and they did poor work, won’t call cust back, pissed off the client whatever, please go take a look.  

 

[Larry]

LOL!  Maybe you're right @msgreenf, I would still complain!!  But I think I would feel less frustrated, after spending hours thrashing about on HE, to at least be told by C4 officially that I need the dealer.  I really would pay for this support, but I take @knowitall's point that I should just get a remote dealer and pay the support/retainer fee that way.  I will first give the Florida physical dealer a chance, but I am thinking that if they do not specialize in remote servicing like people on this forum, they won't be a good combined NJ / FL solution provider.  Interesting comment by @knowitall that C4 will recommend a remote dealer, didn't understand that previously.  I know I should rat my NJ dealer out to C4, but I just can't bring myself to do that.  I really was about to select a remote dealer some months ago, but then held off when it turned out I needed a second C4 installation in FL and would meet a physical dealer there by definition.  So this will all be a 2019 issue (FL condo not ready until then).

[Brownbatsbreath]

Not sure if they’ll recommend a remote dealer.  Like knowitall said, when I used to install this stuff, C4 used to reach out to us to work with their field team to fix installs for customers unhappy with their original dealers. 

I totally understand your concerns. If your dealer is the problem, what do you do when they’re your point of contact for support?

[Larry]

Exactly!  Especially when you don't want to complain about the dealer 'cause you like him.  @knowitall has it right -- eventually getting a remote dealer is the answer.  I can tell my NJ dealer a little white lie when I switch -- that now I have two installations, so I have found a remote dealer that specializes in such thing, so I am not using you nor the Florida physical dealer.  He might reply "heck I could do that" but I can refute with "The remote guy XYZZY really is an expert at what I want to do, so no hard feelings".

Drama.

[msgreenf]

Control4 will never recommend a remote dealer. The dealer model is all based on local markets

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

[Larry]

Well I think perhaps they should adhere to that model for new installations, and maybe the first two years post-installation or something ... but eventually they have to acknowledge that the commercial world is no longer proximity-based and embrace remote support.

[knowitall]

Yea these are local installs C4 doesn’t really condone remote/freelance work

[msgreenf]

12 hours ago, Larry said:

Well I think perhaps they should adhere to that model for new installations, and maybe the first two years post-installation or something ... but eventually they have to acknowledge that the commercial world is no longer proximity-based and embrace remote support.

How is a remote person supposed to troubleshoot and connect hardware? you can't.  The control4 model is about dealers doing the work, not customers.

[Larry]

Can't the remote dealer troubleshoot over the 'net?  I thought that was the whole point.  And most new gear won't need physical connections anyway, it's all wireless.  Unpack the shiny new thing and plug it in to power ... then use your laptop to direct it to the correct network ... like the Echo install, totally painless, or my HP Printer, which was slightly less clever (a list of networks came up on a little LCD screen and I had to hit a button, then type in a password on a little virtual keyboard ... Amazon/Echo was better for sure, a good model ... the device advertises its own WiFi network which you join for just a moment). 

Isn't the future of C4 this: use a superb ZigBee net (set up by the installing electrician who spreads loads and keypads all over the house) and then the C4 controller does the translation to WiFi (or IR, or RF, or messages sent on the hard-wired Ethernet if there is one ... for all devices not directly ZigBee controllable, like 99.95% of all devices) to action the commands sent to it by ZigBee , or from a remote (IR or RF), or even WiFi -- doesn't my C4 tablet talk WiFi to my EA5, which then uses ZigBee to control the lights?  I dunno, I'm a software guy, not a hardware guy, but I think so.

New load switches can be installed by your local electrician, as they were during the initial install anyway.  So no issue with lights.  And if C4 cleaned up their act with the plug-in wall switches, then the table lamp problem is solved.

I just don't see much need for truck-rolls, on-site tech visits, etc. after the first year or so.  And then there's sub-contracting (with on-line, real-time oversight) to a local I.T. consultant -- the local hands do not need to be C4 dealers, which entails expensive minimum commitments, no?,  they work as contractors for the registered dealer.  Or even the installing dealer, who actually makes more money by outsourcing his support to one of the remote dealers, and henceforth not worrying about it on his/her own, since the local techs have tight deadlines on new installs, which makes responding to ad-hoc, unscheduled calls from existing installations painful and hard to manage.

I see this business model very clearly ... it can work IMHO ... and might in fact be better for everyone, that's dealers, remote consultants, customers, and C4 itself.

Just IMHO as I said.  Not intending to preach or anything.  

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, Larry said:

Can't the remote dealer troubleshoot over the 'net?  I thought that was the whole point.  And most new gear won't need physical connections anyway, it's all wireless.  Unpack the shiny new thing and plug it in to power ... then use your laptop to direct it to the correct network ... like the Echo install, totally painless, or my HP Printer, which was slightly less clever (a list of networks came up on a little LCD screen and I had to hit a button, then type in a password on a little virtual keyboard ... Amazon/Echo was better for sure, a good model ... the device advertises its own WiFi network which you join for just a moment). 

Isn't the future of C4 this: use a superb ZigBee net (set up by the installing electrician who spreads loads and keypads all over the house) and then the C4 controller does the translation to WiFi (or IR, or RF, or messages sent on the hard-wired Ethernet if there is one ... for all devices not directly ZigBee controllable, like 99.95% of all devices) to action the commands sent to it by ZigBee , or from a remote (IR or RF), or even WiFi -- doesn't my C4 tablet talk WiFi to my EA5, which then uses ZigBee to control the lights?  I dunno, I'm a software guy, not a hardware guy, but I think so.

New load switches can be installed by your local electrician, as they were during the initial install anyway.  So no issue with lights.  And if C4 cleaned up their act with the plug-in wall switches, then the table lamp problem is solved.

I just don't see much need for truck-rolls, on-site tech visits, etc. after the first year or so.  And then there's sub-contracting (with on-line, real-time oversight) to a local I.T. consultant -- the local hands do not need to be C4 dealers, which entails expensive minimum commitments, no?,  they work as contractors for the registered dealer.  Or even the installing dealer, who actually makes more money by outsourcing his support to one of the remote dealers, and henceforth not worrying about it on his/her own, since the local techs have tight deadlines on new installs, which makes responding to ad-hoc, unscheduled calls from existing installations painful and hard to manage.

I see this business model very clearly ... it can work IMHO ... and might in fact be better for everyone, that's dealers, remote consultants, customers, and C4 itself.

Just IMHO as I said.  Not intending to preach or anything.  

Maybe I’m old school - but I hardwire everything and anything when possible.  If I have two options, wireless or hardwire I’ll wire every time.  Even if I need help running the wires.  Instant.  More reliable.  

 

Just my two cents 

[RR61522]

7 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

Maybe I’m old school - but I hardwire everything and anything when possible.  If I have two options, wireless or hardwire I’ll wire every time.  Even if I need help running the wires.  Instant.  More reliable.  

 

Just my two cents 

Absolutely. Hardwire everthing when possible. Less possibility of interference, and much more reliable than any wireless connection. Besides, wifi is limited in bandwidth and airtime. Why use up all your airtime for automation devices? Save it for portable devices. Do you really want that youtube/netflix/skype/facetime/whatever stream you're watching on your phone to buffer because someone else wants to control something else on your system?