Basics of C4 Lighting

[Crustyloafer]

2 hours ago, chopedogg88 said:

 Also many electricians have no idea how to wire a panelized system
 

This.

[Cyknight]

5 hours ago, rf9000 said:

This scenario, I would think, happens in 90% of the C4 installs

Not even close.

I wouldn't say 90% of c4 is retrofit (certainly not my experience), though a large number of 'new' C4 installs get lighting 'retrofitted' overtop of what the electician normally wires (customer late to include C4, or builder restrictions, or late adding lighting after all) - in which case no, it won't have multiple light switches in a closet.

For us a LOT of installs, probably 50/50 across the years is new install in a new building - and no, we don't plan to have switches hidden anymore, especially not since panel lighting came in.

5 hours ago, rf9000 said:

Was just jumping on here to get options to ease my concerns, thats all.

Again, you can keep asking the same question, but the (proper) answer doesn't change. I would say your concerns SHOULDN'T be eased.

Once more: you might be fine, but it is NOT the 'proper' way of handling this.

5 hours ago, rf9000 said:

I don't want to do panelized lighting though. I have been trying to say this

But what you WANT to do is PROPERLY done using panelized lighting. We're NOT saying you have to get everything to one location in the basement - it can be done by floor, by wing, by logical section of the house. But what you want, limit wall clutter (and it's a good thing to want that!) is done first and foremost with lighting panels. Be it C4, Lutron, Vantage etc.

4 hours ago, chopedogg88 said:

Because it's more expensive to buy a panel and modules vs. Hiding a handful of dimmers where necessary.
 

I'd have to disagree. There really shouldn't be a big price difference between the two in a new install.

 

4 hours ago, chopedogg88 said:

Also many electricians have no idea how to wire a panelized system.

True, but then us dealers should educate, or refer electricians that do, or have electricians on payroll.

5 hours ago, SMHarman said:

My electrician loved wiring for panelized.

"you mean I just pull each load into this panel and into the block and the device in the middle will connect the switch to the load."

Yep.

Exactly. Not ONE electrician we've worked with had anything but good to say on new installs once they got into it (though some certainly complained beforehand)

Panelized lighting is NOTHING NEW. Even disregarding how long Control4 has been doing it - they didn't invent the concept, it's been around for many, many years, and in almost ALL versions of it, including one that is 40 years old we just did, another we did of the same era or even earlier we did a year or two ago, we can retro fit C4 (or Lutron, or Vantage) just fine.

It's a proven product in general terms, and there really shouldn't be a reason not to use it.

[SMHarman]

I suppose the question to the dealer is why do they do that, not put on an 8 pack dimmer in a panel.

My electrician loved wiring for panelized.

"you mean I just pull each load into this panel and into the block and the device in the middle will connect the switch to the load."

Yep.

Because it's more expensive to buy a panel and modules vs. Hiding a handful of dimmers where necessary. Also many electricians have no idea how to wire a panelized system.

Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

The components might be slightly more money but electrician labor and copper HV cable costs are lower.

It's a wash.

[rf9000]

42 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

The components might be slightly more money but electrician labor and copper HV cable costs are lower.

It's a wash.

Thanks for all the replies. In my circumstance it’s not a wash. I usually buy all my own equipment. Panelized Equipment is not readily available and usually can only be bought from dealer, so it’s twice is as expensive. This is a new install, and I think I will go with recommendation of the dealer. Everyone on here usually advises to do that anyways.  They say to hide switches in a few locations and be done

[SMHarman]

Thanks for all the replies. In my circumstance it’s not a wash. I usually buy all my own equipment. Panelized Equipment is not readily available and usually can only be bought from dealer, so it’s twice is as expensive. This is a new install, and I think I will go with recommendation of the dealer. Everyone on here usually advises to do that anyways.  They say to hide switches in a few locations and be done

How much are those light switches costing you?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392722286790

[JSTRONG]

I think that’s not the v2 there on eBay 

 

[SMHarman]

I think that’s not the v2 there on eBay 

 

V1 still works like a champ on 3.n

 

Difference seems to be that your electrican needs a screwdriver.

 

[JSTRONG]

Thanks

I’m not familiar with the v1. But your saying the only difference with the version 2 is they did away with the screw terminals ?

[crshepard7]

On 3/12/2020 at 8:07 PM, rf9000 said:

Sorry, but you are wrong. We have been buying switches and dimmers preparing for the upcoming install, we knew we would need a bunch and what we don’t have we will buy from the dealer, so it’s not backwards. Maybe to you it is because you want everything to be bought from you if you are a dealer, I don’t know. My dealer is working with me. They are not specing to what I already have, but rather to what they feel I need just like any other new construction. But anyways, panelized lighting is not that common with C4 and definitely is not where I’m from. So I’m asking some simple questions and looking for constructive opinions. If you don’t have a useful opinion I ask that you please just don’t respond. Thanks

You’re an end user. How do you know what type of C4 lighting system is common & what is not common? Your dealer saying that they are still shoving banks of dimmers in closets tells me that they are behind the times & are not following best practices. I guess your dealer has a totally different mindset though, considering that they’re willing to work with someone who is sourcing his equipment online.

[SMHarman]

Thanks

I’m not familiar with the v1. But your saying the only difference with the version 2 is they did away with the screw terminals ?

Maybe there are other enhancements but that is the visible one.

 

See the compression terminals here.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/293046802528

 

[JSTRONG]

I just read specs on both v1 and v2 and man I can’t find a single difference other then those screw terminals upgraded to push terminals 

 

[JSTRONG]

V2 sounds better though. 

[SMHarman]

V2 sounds better though. 

So there you go I just got you 8 loads for less that the cost of switches

[crshepard7]

2 minutes ago, JSTRONG said:

I just read specs on both v1 and v2 and man I can’t find a single difference other then those screw terminals upgraded to push terminals 

 

The V2 have a second Ethernet port so multiple modules can be daisy chained together from one uplink cable.

[rf9000]

9 hours ago, SMHarman said:

How much are those light switches costing you?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392722286790

I guess my other hesitation is I don't know how paneling works. Can you explain how it works and what is all needed besides this? Will the regular APDs and SWs will work with this? And would   I just use these in places where I'm having hidden banks? or would the whole system have to be panelized? Right now I have about 30 APDS, 15 KPDs, 10 SWs, and 5 KPs spec'd. About 21 of these are hidden. But some of the hidden ones are front and rear landscape lights, etc. that you would normally hide.

[ILoveC4]

17 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

I guess my other hesitation is I don't know how paneling works. Can you explain how it works and what is all needed besides this? Will the regular APDs and SWs will work with this? And would   I just use these in places where I'm having hidden banks? or would the whole system have to be panelized? Right now I have about 30 APDS, 15 KPDs, 10 SWs, and 5 KPs spec'd. About 21 of these are hidden. But some of the hidden ones are front and rear landscape lights, etc. that you would normally hide.

Don’t hide lights. That’s a terrible idea. Get panelized lighting, or wire like you would for any regular lighting and put C4 lighting products in. Hiding switches is bad on lots of levels. 
 

I just built a new house and ultimately decided against panelized lighting and had the electrician wire like normal. Then came in and put a Control4 product in every switch location. This way though if I ever want to it’s wired for regular lights and things are where people expect them. 
 

I’ve had Control4 since 2006 and only had 1 time when the system was down and the 3 way locations didn’t work. In that scenario though, are you going to explain to people that the switch they need is in the back of the hall closet?

[JSTRONG]

How did you handle those large 3-4-5 gangs of light dimmers in your new home 

[SMHarman]

I guess my other hesitation is I don't know how paneling works. Can you explain how it works and what is all needed besides this? Will the regular APDs and SWs will work with this? And would   I just use these in places where I'm having hidden banks? or would the whole system have to be panelized? Right now I have about 30 APDS, 15 KPDs, 10 SWs, and 5 KPs spec'd. About 21 of these are hidden. But some of the hidden ones are front and rear landscape lights, etc. that you would normally hide.

You need this. The steel box it goes in and the two rough in jumper connectors.

 

This gets a wired IP connection to the router.

 

This gets wired to a fuse/breaker in the main electric panel. This gets wired to the loads.

 

The collection of keypads ans switches yiu have will control these secondary lights with scenes.

 

[RAV]

Panelized

One 'box' (module) has 8 relays or 8 dimmers in it. You supply service feeds to the module depending on total load calculations, dimmer units up to 2 feeds, relay up to 4. The modules go in a panel, available in 2 module or 5 module sizes. Wiring is terminated first at a junction terminal block inside the panel, with jumpers to the modules. Facilitates testing and servicing. The panel is divided and has a separator for low voltage connections on the right. Each module gets wired to the LAN. Buttons on face of each module which protrudes through the panel cover, provide local testing and over ride. There is also the option to have a dumb toggle type wall switch wired to each module to anywhere in the home as a backup control.

You program and control the units through the software as you would any in wall devices. Building connections and scenes to buttons, remotes, voice, motion, timer, whatever.

Keypads can be any mix. Wireless Zigbee Keypads or Keypad dimmers or low voltage wired communicating keypads, which look and program the same as the zigbee units. The wired units then attach to a power supply and an Ehternet communication bus at the panel plugged into the LAN as well. Press a wired keypad button, command goes through the keypad wire, to the bus, to the LAN, to the processor, processor tells what module, wireless switch etc what to do.

In a hybrid system, no keypad power supply or bus is typically used. The zigbee keypads are the control. And rather than 8 dimmers in 2 four gang boxes, you have a panel with a module talking through the LAN. The electrician has less work typically, cause he's not cramming switches into boxes and nutting bunches of neutrals and grounds and such, simply screw down on the terminal blocks.

[rf9000]

48 minutes ago, RAV said:

Panelized

One 'box' (module) has 8 relays or 8 dimmers in it. You supply service feeds to the module depending on total load calculations, dimmer units up to 2 feeds, relay up to 4. The modules go in a panel, available in 2 module or 5 module sizes. Wiring is terminated first at a junction terminal block inside the panel, with jumpers to the modules. Facilitates testing and servicing. The panel is divided and has a separator for low voltage connections on the right. Each module gets wired to the LAN. Buttons on face of each module which protrudes through the panel cover, provide local testing and over ride. There is also the option to have a dumb toggle type wall switch wired to each module to anywhere in the home as a backup control.

You program and control the units through the software as you would any in wall devices. Building connections and scenes to buttons, remotes, voice, motion, timer, whatever.

Keypads can be any mix. Wireless Zigbee Keypads or Keypad dimmers or low voltage wired communicating keypads, which look and program the same as the zigbee units. The wired units then attach to a power supply and an Ehternet communication bus at the panel plugged into the LAN as well. Press a wired keypad button, command goes through the keypad wire, to the bus, to the LAN, to the processor, processor tells what module, wireless switch etc what to do.

In a hybrid system, no keypad power supply or bus is typically used. The zigbee keypads are the control. And rather than 8 dimmers in 2 four gang boxes, you have a panel with a module talking through the LAN. The electrician has less work typically, cause he's not cramming switches into boxes and nutting bunches of neutrals and grounds and such, simply screw down on the terminal blocks.

Thanks for this. I understand it 50%. I’m not wiring the whole house though in C4, about 75% of and other 25% will be conventional lighting. It’s confusing to me with panelized. So I can use normal APD dimmers or don’t I need that anymore since the module does the dimming?

[RAV]

1 minute ago, rf9000 said:

Thanks for this. I understand it 50%. I’m not wiring the whole house though in C4, about 75% of and other 25% will be conventional lighting. It’s confusing to me with panelized. So I can use normal APD dimmers or don’t I need that anymore since the module does the dimming?

The module is the equivalent of 8 APD, all in one device.
Rather than 8 APDs stuffed in 2 Four gang boxes, and tucked in a closet causing zigbee storms, you know have one module on the LAN, placed where ever it makes sense, often in the utility room.

Panelized doesn't mean you have to wire the whole house, or that you can't still use wireless lighting (KPD, APD, SW).
As I stated earlier, much earlier, use KPD for the main load in each room. Put the accent lighting and landscape and leftovers on Panelized. Panelized makes sense when there's more than a handful of leftovers.

Panelized simple solves the hidding of switches in closets. It solves homes with communication problems, since it's not wireless it's all on the LAN and keypad bus. It's convenient for landscape and accent lighting when there's transformers for the loads. It's clean wiring, it's often less wiring, and less copper. And if there's concerns with wireless signals in a home for medical or whatever, then there isn't any, it's can be all wired communications. BUT it DOESN'T have to be all panelized either.

[anon2828]

I can only share my personal experience.  My dealer was 100% supportive of hiding switches in the wiring closet, and that is what we did.

I have 16 Adaptive Phase Dimmer switches in the wiring closet.  We did the same upstairs in another closet. This eliminated having 3, 4, or 6 switches ("piano keyboards") in a room.  My goal was a single dimmer or keypad, or at most 2 in logical locations in each room.

The result is that each room looks clean as it pertains to light switches.  Where needed we have installed Keypads/Dimmer Keypads with 6-buttons to control various house functions or lighting (still trying to work out what works best before ordering the engraved buttons).

Overall, I am happy with the results.  Yes, panelized lighting (which I explored in depth) could have made for an even cleaner layout, but I feel that I have a great deal of flexibility with the current setup.  Based on my personal experience, doing panelized would have also resulted in greater cost in both wiring (because most electricians don't get it - even getting them to hide the switches in the closets was an effort) and the overall cost of the equipment.  Also keep in mind that with a setup as I am describing you can "grow" your system and add C4 dimmers, switches, and keypads as you go at your own pace instead of having to go all-in at once expense-wise.  Granted there are those here on the forum living in 20,000 sq/ft second vacation homes (invite me over please), but to a large subset of users, this can matter.  Also, though I do no plan to ever sell the house, if I ever have to, the new owner could go back to "un-smart" lighting easily.

Performance-wise I have had absolutely zero problems.  I've literally never had to reset a lighting load or had any type of "Zigbee storm" as reported by others.  We planned on doing it this way and it works to the way we designed it.  Your mileage and experience may vary.

[SMHarman]

Thanks for this. I understand it 50%. I’m not wiring the whole house though in C4, about 75% of and other 25% will be conventional lighting. It’s confusing to me with panelized. So I can use normal APD dimmers or don’t I need that anymore since the module does the dimming?

So I have a hybrid system. Some panel. Some conventional.

Let's do this with picture.

That's a keypad dimmer, directly. It controls the ceiling spot lights on sticks.

Those buttons all align to scenes.

The ceiling pendants, counter lights, cabinet lights and lights in that ceiling recess are all on the 8 pack dimmer in that steel box.

The controller has a cat5 going from it to that cabinet.

All thise extra circuits are controlled directly by the controller based on those scenes.

[Cyknight]

5 minutes ago, anon2828 said:

Though I do no plan to ever sell the house, if I ever have to, the new owner could go back to "un-smart" lighting easily.

Oh really? By having regular switches in a closet?

[Cyknight]

12 hours ago, SMHarman said:

How much are those light switches costing you?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/392722286790

“*Tested for Key Functions, R2/Ready for Resale* Power Adapter Not Included.”

 

Uhm....