Basics of C4 Lighting

[Crustyloafer]

1 hour ago, rf9000 said:

So technically, the majority of the APD dimmers would not be needed because the modules take the place of the APD dimmers, is this correct?  For example, lets say there are 5 loads in the Master bath. The plan before was to have a single KPD located in Master bath for load 1, then in the Master Closet have one APD for load 2, one APD for load 3, one SW for load 4 (bath fan),  one APD for load 5. In the panelized lighting plan, we would still have one KPD located in Master Bath for load 1, and then loads 2-5 would be handled by the module and all the other APDs or SWs are not needed? Also, can the module be programmed to have some of the channels utilize either dimmer or switch? I see its called the dimmer module so wondering if a regular switch can be used with it too.

Not quite, in that scenario with panelized lighting all loads would be handles by the 8 channel panelized module. The only keypads in this room or any other rooms for that matter would be the wired panelized keypads which are wired with Lutron style low voltage cabling. There are no keypads with actual dimmers built into them used in a fully panelized system, or a least not if it has been planned out correctly. These wired keypad are powered from a 48V keypad bus power supply as part of the panelized system.
 

It is also possible to have a hybrid system with a mix of panelized lighting and wired keypads and then wireless keypad dimmers for additional loads that are added later and can only be retrofitted. When installing a fully penalised system we quite often wire in a few wireless keypads (still without dimmers built-in) to help extend  and bolster the ZigBee mesh. These wireless keypads can also be powered from the same 48V keypad bus power supply, but count as 1.5 keypads each towards the total number of keypads/spokes allowed on each keypad wiring run.

[rf9000]

2 hours ago, Crustyloafer said:

Not quite, in that scenario with panelized lighting all loads would be handles by the 8 channel panelized module. The only keypads in this room or any other rooms for that matter would be the wired panelized keypads which are wired with Lutron style low voltage cabling. There are no keypads with actual dimmers built into them used in a fully panelized system, or a least not if it has been planned out correctly. These wired keypad are powered from a 48V keypad bus power supply as part of the panelized system.
 

It is also possible to have a hybrid system with a mix of panelized lighting and wired keypads and then wireless keypad dimmers for additional loads that are added later and can only be retrofitted. When installing a fully penalised system we quite often wire in a few wireless keypads (still without dimmers built-in) to help extend  and bolster the ZigBee mesh. These wireless keypads can also be powered from the same 48V keypad bus power supply, but count as 1.5 keypads each towards the total number of keypads/spokes allowed on each keypad wiring run.

I see. So all of the keypads, dimmers, switches, etc that we have now are useless and we would have to buy all new keypads that were designed for the panelized system. Now this is making more sense. Everyone keeps saying their "wired keypads", so I didn't know that they mean "different" wired keypads. So then with panelized, this makes sense that that  nothing would go down if controller went down. Because each button on the keypad controls a load that is ran to the central panel system and EA5 has no bearing on it except for scenes? 

Another question, is there separate modules other then dimming modules? Say we wanted to use several switches, are there switching modules or can the dimming modules also act as switches? This all seems pretty simple, but I must say when I look at pictures of these C4 panelized systems it looks like there are many more wires and components then what we simply talked about here.

Lastly, everyone mentions the advantage to panelized is that if in non panelized the controller goes down, your secondary lights wont work. But isn't it also true that any of these modules could go down and then in that case none of the lights connected to it would work? Even the primary lights? 

[Cyknight]

6 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Because each button on the keypad controls a load that is ran to the central panel system and EA5 has no bearing on it except for scenes? 

Not quite, but the wired keypads can be set to retain some SPECIFIC control over SPECIFIC lights when the system is down.

7 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

So all of the keypads, dimmers, switches, etc that we have now are useless

Actually you COULD use the keypads you have (they can be powered low voltage as well) - but they won't have the fall back feature.

8 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Another question, is there separate modules other then dimming modules?

Yes, there are relay modules which you would use as switches (for fans etc) - nice addition is that you could use fan drivers and connect them as actual fans (under comfort) vs them showing up as lights. Much like 'regualr' dimmers you can set them o mimic switches, but in the same vain, they won't be ACTUAL switches, and shouldn't be used for motors etc.

Other components exist, but they are primarily for keypads, such as the bus module and the powersupply for the keypads.

10 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

Lastly, everyone mentions the advantage to panelized is that if in non panelized the controller goes down, your secondary lights wont work. But isn't it also true that any of these modules could go down and then in that case none of the lights connected to it would work? Even the primary lights? 

Sure - if a dimmer stops working itself, it still stops working. But now you're in the same line as a light not trurning on because your bulb is burnt out. Or not having lights because there is no power.

It's a bout relative likely hood, which becomes MUCH smaller.

[rf9000]

53 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Not quite, but the wired keypads can be set to retain some SPECIFIC control over SPECIFIC lights when the system is down.

Actually you COULD use the keypads you have (they can be powered low voltage as well) - but they won't have the fall back feature.

Yes, there are relay modules which you would use as switches (for fans etc) - nice addition is that you could use fan drivers and connect them as actual fans (under comfort) vs them showing up as lights. Much like 'regualr' dimmers you can set them o mimic switches, but in the same vain, they won't be ACTUAL switches, and shouldn't be used for motors etc.

Other components exist, but they are primarily for keypads, such as the bus module and the powersupply for the keypads.

Sure - if a dimmer stops working itself, it still stops working. But now you're in the same line as a light not trurning on because your bulb is burnt out. Or not having lights because there is no power.

It's a bout relative likely hood, which becomes MUCH smaller.

Thanks. Still not clear on what you mean by “not quite”. I thought the whole point of centralized was to reduce clutter and not have any lights go down if the EA5 goes down. If that isn’t the case, it’s harder to see why this is an advantage over hiding switches. Is this all correct?:

Panelized

1. lighting control via only keypad with no other switches in the room

2. no problems with Zigbee Storm 

3. if EA5 goes down, most lights will not work? Keypad is not wired to even the primary load in the room

 

Hidden

1. lighting control via only keypad with no other switches in room
2. possible Zigbee Storm problems

3. if EA5 goes down, all keypads still work for primary connected loads

I also get the idea of a “clean” install. But I’m sure that half the dealers across the country hide dimmers on almost every install. I know there are other differences, but this is tough decision. When some on here say hiding switches is not proper or a bad idea, it seems panelized is almost the exact same thing, just a more expensive way to do it. I’m not against st panelized, I’m actually strongly considering it, I just trying to way out benefits. Some say, it’s ridiculous to hide a secondary switch to a room, and put it two rooms away, but is it? Isn’t panelizing doing the same thing? You are still running to a central location and not actually having a physical load connected to any of your keypads. If the panel module or the EA5 go down, do you still have control? Whereas with the hidden switch plan, you ALWAYS, have control over your primary load in the room. Then there is the cost. Most say it’s the same, but it is not. Panelized is much more. Are the keypads free when you buy the modules? Lol. You still have to buy all the keypads on top of buying all the modules, metal enclosures, Ethernet switch, power supply, plus all the home runs of wire. Granted you do save by not having to romex the keypads. If I went this route, I probably  wouldn’t use the 2 or 5 slot metal boxes from C4 because they are ridiculous. Any large metal enclosure with DIN rail would work. I don’t know. Is it worth it?

[Cyknight]

In panel lighting with wired keypad, it needs to be set up that specific buttons control specific lights. IE a scene tied to a button may stop working, but that button will default back to controlling the rooms main light, and so on.

It's not that wired keypad buttons aren't going through a controller, but they have the ability to default back to basic lighting  control if the controller fails

[Cyknight]

49 minutes ago, rf9000 said:

But I’m sure that half the dealers across the country hide dimmers on almost every install.

Based on what?

[rf9000]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

Based on what?

The ones I have talked to. You can’t really say that everyone that wants to hide a couple dimmers always go to panelizing, can you?

[rf9000]

1 hour ago, Cyknight said:

In panel lighting with wired keypad, it needs to be set up that specific buttons control specific lights. IE a scene tied to a button may stop working, but that button will default back to controlling the rooms main light, and so on.

It's not that wired keypad buttons aren't going through a controller, but they have the ability to default back to basic lighting  control if the controller fails

What is the advantage here then? So basically if controller goes down with hiding switch scenario, none of secondary loads will work. If controller goes down with panelized, then keypad revert back to controlling one load and none of secondary loads will work? Or are you saying that keypad reverts back to each button controlling each secondary load individually so that all lights still work?

[ILoveC4]

Good god this has to stop.


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[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, ILoveC4 said:

Good god this has to stop.


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Indeed.

rf9000: You keep looking for ratification of your choices - if you're so convinced, you don't need ratification. Just go do it the way you want.

[Crustyloafer]

The keypad "fallback" behaviour as it is called in a panellised system enables the programmer to configure each button on any keypad to perform one specific function, ie turn on a load or turn it off. Once a specific function has been assigned to a keypad button as fallback behaviour that function cannot be applied to any other buttons on any other keypads.

It is designed as an emergency failover/fallback behaviour so that the primary keypad in each room can retain core functionality even without the main EA-1/2/5 controller being up and running.

An example would be in the Lounge, with let us say has three lighting circuits, main downlight/cans, wall lights and low level night lights. There could be two keypad in this room, once at the entrance to this room and another secondary keypad at the other side. I would typically program the top button on the keypad at the entrance to the room to turn on the main downlights/cans and the bottom button to turn those same lights off. This would be the only fallback behaviour I would add to that keypad. The downlights/cans on and off functions can not be applied to any other keypad buttons as fallback behaviour.

Bottom line is, with the size of property you have and the number of lighting circuits per room (clearly requiring the need for multiple hidden keypad dimmers) a panelized systems the correct / most appropriate solution and what any Control4 installer with even an ounce of system design knowledge would be recommending.

What has happened here, is you have gone a bought a bunch of kit for a bargain price, without any knowledge of lighting system design or appropriateness of the product for the application and are now trying to design the system around the hardware already purchased rather than the other way around.

We are not trying to be dicks about this, but quite frankly you are going about this the wrong way. That said, technically speaking it will probably work the way you and your "dealer" are planning to do it by shoehorning a retrofit lighting control solution into a new build and panelized appropriate scenario.

You came on these forums for advice, that is what you have been offered, if that unfortunately conflicts with how you had it all working in your head and/or how your dealer has suggested it be installed then so be it, but the advice we are offering still stands and is there for you to choose to follow or not.

Panelized lighting offers several key advantages, some of which have already been mentioned:

• Simplifies wiring for the electrician, with all loads going back to a single centralised location, and greatly simplifies wiring termination and testing of the loads.
• Keypads are low voltage and can be wired as a single daisy chain loop/spoke or multiple loops/spokes depending on easiest cabling routes available
• Additional control options available such as the 4-Channel Bus Dry Contact Input Module which allows any existing traditional lighting switches to be used to control the panelized lighting modules. This is particularly useful in high end properties with either traditional lighting switches which need to remain in order to be in keeping with the rest of the decor or where the client just wants a very specific design of switch in the room/s.
• Panelized lighting modules typically handle larger loads per channel than any  integrated keypad dimmer
• Wider combination of load types able to be controlled easily, especially when it comes to motors, pumps, fans etc and 0-10/1-10V lighting control
• Fallback behaviour on keypads allowing an emergency override behaviour to be configured for each keypad button.
• No reliance on ZigBee or any other wireless communication for lighting control

 

[tdougray]

FFS can everyone please stop now. 
it’s been exhausted!!! 

[Crustyloafer]

2 hours ago, tdougray said:

FFS can everyone please stop now. 
it’s been exhausted!!! 

[rf9000]

47 minutes ago, Crustyloafer said:

Thanks guys for all your input. I actually think it’s a good thread because a lot of information has been exchanged. By the way, my dealer has no knowledge of what equipment I have. So their plan was not built around my equipment.  I usually do these types of electronics myself, but decided to hire a dealer this time. They came in and laid everything out without knowing any equipment or devices. Hiding is the way they always do it, with no input from me. Heck, I’m the one that asked about panelizing, not something they even brought up. They then said panelizing is usually for huge homes with 50 to 100 loads. I also followed up with one of the biggest electricians here, and he also said he installed tons of panelized back in the day and he recommended not to do it. Says he hides them too. So after the walk through, I technically only have about 25 loads total we are doing so their method was just to hide rather than panelize. Everyone on this forum is always very “strong” on listening and going with what dealer says. So here we are with the dealer’s plan going against what you all say. So most of my responses are trying to justify what the dealer has said, after all this is the advice I’m paying all the money for, right? Tough spot to be in. 

[rf9000]

Also, in the end both types of systems, once installed, will work exactly the same. The real only big difference is if the EA5 goes down, will most of lights still work? With hidden switches, primary loads in all room still work. And with panelized switches, if EA5 goes down, then all the primary loads to each keypad still work if programmed to specific functions. But again, like the post above said about the Lounge, he only programs the keypad top two buttons to turn on and off the main lights. So technically, in hidden system, this function would be the same as the keypad dimmer will always turn on main lights. Other then that, most of the other bullet points don’t really make a difference, except maybe the 0-10v and pump control, but again for those you have to buy a module for each. Again guys, just weighing it out. For the tiny differences,  I know that my dealer will say if your EA5 goes down, we can be there the next day to fix or replace. 

[lippavisual]

Installing panelized, using low-voltage panelized keypads and your director goes down: keypads within the room default to control a load, typically the main lights in the room.

Installing panelized, using high-voltage keypads and your director/zigbee server goes down: keypads within room stop working completely because the zigbee system is down.  No load control within your rooms.

Installing switches/dimmers traditionally or hidden, using low/high voltage keypads in your room and your director goes down: keypads within room stop working completely because the zigbee system is down.  No load control within your rooms.  Unless, a keypad dimmer is installed and a single button is set to control the room's lights. 

Does that spell it out for you??

[SMHarman]

They then said panelizing is usually for huge homes with 50 to 100 loads. I also followed up with one of the biggest electricians here, and he also said he installed tons of panelized back in the day and he recommended not to do it. Says he hides them too. So after the walk through, I technically only have about 25 loads total we are doing so their method was just to hide rather than panelize.

Your home is 6000 ft. That puts it into huge home category. Average 5 person family home is 2500-3000 sq ft.

25 loads is about perfect for panel in a new built. 8 loads per dimmer pack. Wire ceiling fans conventionally (4 core to the switch).

I'm not sure what back in the day for panel was. It has never gone out of fashion in many countries.

[ILoveC4]

Guys just let it rest. This thread needs to die.


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[SMHarman]

Guys just let it rest. This thread needs to die.


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You are right.
@rf9000 what you want to do is recommended, positively advocated for by Control4. Build away.