Shelly vs Zwave

[BubbaDuck]

I have an install with an older Vera/Mi Casa Verde Zwave network. I am getting complaints about Zwave being slow - we have some automation tied to light state etc. Vera is essentially a dead product and Ezlo doesn't have C4 integration (yet?). There seem to be great drivers for Shelly devices, but I am curious about their speed. Can anyone speak to how fast they are to "talk" to the controllers when their states change?

[Time2Jet]

22 hours ago, BubbaDuck said:

I have an install with an older Vera/Mi Casa Verde Zwave network. I am getting complaints about Zwave being slow - we have some automation tied to light state etc. Vera is essentially a dead product and Ezlo doesn't have C4 integration (yet?). There seem to be great drivers for Shelly devices, but I am curious about their speed. Can anyone speak to how fast they are to "talk" to the controllers when their states change?

Shelly hands down is the best integration for the money out there.  It operates in the 2.4ghz wireless range.   So long as your Wi-Fi is good, it’s absolutely stunning great.  I haven’t used the Chowmain Driver, so I can’t speak for it, but the Domadeo driver is great. 

[Andrew luecke]

G'day, 

I actually wrote the Chowmain Shelly Driver.. In the past, I had a Vera plus installed in my place, with a lot of the Zwave Plus gear.

 

Zwave

So, Zwave is obviously mesh based. Great for your typical smaller home, but as a custom installer, chances are, you have an awesome wifi network anyway (or should). You can guarantee  the quality of the connection on Wifi a bit better. Zwave is 900mhz so should have better penetration, but there are also less channels available (so, more affected by intererence). And similar to Zigbee, if you have less Zwave devices, you may have a coverage gap, and areas where you need to extend the signal somehow.  

A good Zwave job can be as good as a wifi job though (if you're using a good gateway). Zwave does have a bigger range of products, and a wider variety of manufacturers. Zwave is more power efficient, so some devices like remotes may work for longer before they need new batteries (if you need them, few C4 users do).

Shelly has some really cool products like the Uni though for upgrading dumb devices to smart devices. 

 

 

Shelly Protocols:
There are two types of Shelly modules now, Shelly Gen 1, Shelly Gen 2 (generally known as Shelly NG).

Shelly NG will (likely) be all modules released from now, and Shelly PM Pro (4,2,1), Shelly 1 Plus, Shelly 1Plus PM, and since it uses Websockets and a cleaner protocol (and newer chips), its preferred. 

With Shelly, we basically poll it (and I have some secret sauce that was added into late releases, so it's now extremely fast). In fact, I combined a Shelly Light with Tuya PIR sensor (which had its own built in light), and both the Tuya Light and Shelly triggered at the same time.. 

Both are great protocols, but the new ShellyNG protocol is a lot more succinct. 

 

With Shelly, its cheap, and we have a 90 day trial (or showroom licence) for all of our drivers at chowmain (and you can contact me anytime if you have an issue).

All feature requests have been resolved with our driver at this time, with the exception of 1 which can't be implemented well (dimmer calibration, which is only ever needed once, and is easily accessible via web interface). We have a lot of users with our driver (everything from effects to Control4 BUTTON_LINK connections are supported.. We even built in an easy announcement option).  We only have 3 outstanding issues (2 unconfirmed, and those are only unconfirmed as the installers took a while to get back to us, and I was awaiting some additional hardware). I'm hoping to have all resolved within the next week (so we're back down to 0 once again)

If you do have any questions, feel free to contact me. But overall, the protocol is extremely fast (and we actually work directly with the Allterco / Shelly team, who are amazing to work with).

Shelly is a great Wifi based product, and Shelly NG makes it even better. So, I definitely recommend them. 

[BubbaDuck]

Thanks for the thoughtful post.
 

Great to know. I think your mention of speed being potentially equivalent in Zwave assuming a good hub is interesting. I wonder if this is simply a matter of the Vera showing it’s age. The install is about 40 devices - the vast majority being Aeotec dimmers. The reason I mention this is I very much doubt it is a coverage issue. My understanding is the Vera pushes a state to the C4 when there is a change and that is what is in particular slow as other automation lags from it. When Zwave light state = on, turn on C4 panelized light…. Waits 4 seconds… light comes on.

The good news with Wifi is there is no concept of “hops” in a mesh and things won’t slow with more devices due to hops.

 

Ok. I have a Dimmer 2 in the mail and I’ll snag the driver to play with. The Shelly water sensor is interesting too and I note the driver supports it. I have tried every Zwave water sensor I can find and they are all just trash and I haven’t found great C4 native options. I’m literally at the edge of making my own out of ESP32s and pushing a GET to the ChowMain Web driver.

[zaphod]

Does Shelly have devices that would work for controlling a garage with two doors - I would need two (or more) sensors plus two relays?

[BubbaDuck]

They have relays which is their bread and butter. The Shelly 1 would work as it is just dry contact and can run off of AC main voltage or DC low voltage. I don't know if it would be any better than a Z2IO other than an option in a no Zigbee install. Sensor wise, they have a window/door sensor which is just a Wifi reed sensor.

[Time2Jet]

2 hours ago, BubbaDuck said:

They have relays which is their bread and butter. The Shelly 1 would work as it is just dry contact and can run off of AC main voltage or DC low voltage. I don't know if it would be any better than a Z2IO other than an option in a no Zigbee install. Sensor wise, they have a window/door sensor which is just a Wifi reed sensor.

So long as there is adequate wifi signal, will work like a charm.  I have many.  One is buried deep in a wall (UL Listed model) inside a metal box for a wall heater at a point furthest away from any WAPs and never fails.

[Andrew luecke]

Just a heads up.. If you do end up using Shelly and our driver, shoot me a message, and I'll add you to the beta list (as a new beta which fixes 3 bugs is expected to drop within the next few days )

[Time2Jet]

37 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Just a heads up.. If you do end up using Shelly and our driver, shoot me a message, and I'll add you to the beta list (as a new beta which fixes 3 bugs is expected to drop within the next few days )

Andrew, I used the "other" guys driver only because I feel yours wasn't available at the time.  I'd like to move forward with yours but cannot for the life of me get it to connect.

[Andrew luecke]

Just now, time2jet said:

Andrew, I used the "other" guys driver only because I feel yours wasn't available at the time.  I'd like to move forward with yours but cannot for the life of me get it to connect.

G'day, 

Feel free to send me a message.. Also, ensure you're using shelly_module for old devices, shelly_module_ng for new modules.  

[Köhler Medientechnik]

I was actually the "everything besides wired is prone to failure"-type of guy and if wiring is not possible, use a proprietary system like zwave or zigbee.

However, i did a test install of some Shelly devices at my friends house and no issue was reported at all since then (a couple of months ago).
So i can confirm they are absolutely reliable and will start to use them in real client installs.

A stable wifi is an absolute requirement, but nowadays that´s the case anyway.

[Andrew luecke]

41 minutes ago, Köhler Medientechnik said:

I was actually the "everything besides wired is prone to failure"-type of guy and if wiring is not possible, use a proprietary system like zwave or zigbee.

However, i did a test install of some Shelly devices at my friends house and no issue was reported at all since then (a couple of months ago).
So i can confirm they are absolutely reliable and will start to use them in real client installs.

A stable wifi is an absolute requirement, but nowadays that´s the case anyway.

Shelly's new DIN mount Pro 4/2/1PM modules are actually ethernet, bluetooth and wifi (but I've only used them on wifi). They're Gen 2 devices too (so use the newer protocol) and supported from day 1 of our release (or earlier actually) 

 

[Köhler Medientechnik]

4 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Shelly's new DIN mount Pro 4/2/1PM modules are actually ethernet, bluetooth and wifi (but I've only used them on wifi). They're Gen 2 devices too (so use the newer protocol) and supported from day 1 of our release (or earlier actually) 

 

Yes, i´ve seen them. Since they are DIN mount modules and therefore often to found in metal enclosures, i´d have some doubts on non-wired communication here.

What i´d appreciate if there would be a possiblity to daisy-chain modules using the ethernet-ports because otherwise, you´d need quite a lot of ethernet ports and cabling to connect them wired.

[zaphod]

23 hours ago, BubbaDuck said:

They have relays which is their bread and butter. The Shelly 1 would work as it is just dry contact and can run off of AC main voltage or DC low voltage. I don't know if it would be any better than a Z2IO other than an option in a no Zigbee install. Sensor wise, they have a window/door sensor which is just a Wifi reed sensor.

Wouldn't it be MUCH cheaper than using Z2IOs.  Shelly devices are typically around $15-25.  A Z2IO is $180 (I think) and you may need two of them for two garage doors for two sensors and two relays.  Makes you wonder why a Z2IO is so expensive.  What is the difference between a Shelly relay or sensor device and a Z2IO other than Zigbee vs Wifi and IR outputs?

[BubbaDuck]

For sure... I was just musing on when to use one or the other. As for why a Z2IO is so expensive... because it can be and there a limited C4 Zigbee options due to their proprietary Zigbee implementation. All of this stuff is 10 cents worth of parts from a Chinese factory marked way as they are hard to make in your basement.

[zaphod]

3 minutes ago, BubbaDuck said:

For sure... I was just musing on when to use one or the other. As for why a Z2IO is so expensive... because it can be and there a limited C4 Zigbee options due to their proprietary Zigbee implementation. All of this stuff is 10 cents worth of parts from a Chinese factory marked way as they are hard to make in your basement.

For sure, and DIYers like me wonder why this stuff is so expensive when you can do much of it with a Raspberry Pi Zero ($10) and a bit of software.

[BubbaDuck]

Dealers aren't in it for that and C4 is a dealer system. That said, I do solve some issues with ESP32s. For instance, for the life of me I can't find an IP based 12 volt trigger. So much of the time everything in an install is in a closet or basement far from the active subs so I really want a remote 12v trigger I can use on subs. I just end up making them with a project box, ESP32, a buck converter, relay, and 12v PSU and toggle the trigger from a web call from the ChowMain IP driver.

[Amr]

I use a mix of Shelly’s devices some on Tasmota and some on Original firmware with Chowmain driver, all light loads on tasmota other devices native, the driver is awesome and instant!

[RobE]

So you communicate using either ethernet (cable?), wifi or Bluetooth.
1. When you communicate for example over the Internet using wifi - mustn't there be a gateway?
2. Another question - is the protocol two-way like for Z-wave?

[Andrew luecke]

12 minutes ago, RobE said:

So you communicate using either ethernet (cable?), wifi or Bluetooth.
1. When you communicate for example over the Internet using wifi - mustn't there be a gateway?
2. Another question - is the protocol two-way like for Z-wave?

Shelly runs a cloud server for internet stuff if you want remote access via their app). But when using control4, c4 relays the info remotely (but we still optionally use cloud for self healing IPs and auto rename).

2. Absolutely it's 2 way. Both are responsive (the old gear we check for updated info every few hundred milliseconds). But the new gen2/ShellyNG gear is better at doing it since we don't need to poll it, and feedback is always instantaneous (the protocol uses websockets so is more efficient)

[BubbaDuck]

25 minutes ago, RobE said:

So you communicate using either ethernet (cable?), wifi or Bluetooth.
1. When you communicate for example over the Internet using wifi - mustn't there be a gateway?
2. Another question - is the protocol two-way like for Z-wave?

To be extra super clear - the ChowMain driver talks directly to the Shelly devices on the local network via Wifi. It’s 100% local control and the Shelly cloud is unnecessary/optional. I tore out all of my personal Vera Zwave devices and went Shelly as the integration is superior. Real press and hold to dim and other goodies the Vera integration never could do.

[LollerAgent]

2 hours ago, BubbaDuck said:

To be extra super clear - the ChowMain driver talks directly to the Shelly devices on the local network via Wifi. It’s 100% local control and the Shelly cloud is unnecessary/optional. I tore out all of my personal Vera Zwave devices and went Shelly as the integration is superior. Real press and hold to dim and other goodies the Vera integration never could do.

This is correct.

[Andrew luecke]

5 hours ago, BubbaDuck said:

To be extra super clear - the ChowMain driver talks directly to the Shelly devices on the local network via Wifi. It’s 100% local control and the Shelly cloud is unnecessary/optional. I tore out all of my personal Vera Zwave devices and went Shelly as the integration is superior. Real press and hold to dim and other goodies the Vera integration never could do.

Yes. It's still local control even when using the cloud agent.

The cloud agent simply enhances local control.

By the way, if you use rgbw2 or blinds, there is a new beta which fixes some things.

 

Also, I used to own a vera myself years ago tbh. Can't imagine why you ripped it out .

If you're using relays, the ShellyNG devices are the plus pucks or the pro4/2/1pm and are what I recommend. For inputs, use the i4. There are no ShellyNG dimmers yet, although I have added code to help expedite development once it is released