Routing audio streams from one Control4 controller to another over IP

[cnicholson]

Hi everyone.

I have a large property with two building sites about 200 feet away from each other.  I will have one "system" and one IP network (have wired backbone link between sites).  I will have audio matrices at each location.  I will have a Core 5 Controller at each location.

My request is to be able to have a single audio stream play on zones connected to a matrix/amp at location 1 AND zones connected to a matrix/amp at location 2.   I had assumed I would need a way to transport audio streams back and forth.

My installer thinks that (at least with respect to audio sources originating from a Control4 Controller (perhaps not external sources)) one Core 5 can "automagically" pass a digital stream over IP to the other (distant) Core 5 and sort out the matrix routing such that I can play any (internal) source form either Core 5 on any zone project wide.

I guess, in light of Audio inputs on controllers, this might also work with external audio sources (A CD player lets say) by plugging a line-out zone from Matrix back into the audio input on the Core 5.

This seems plausible, but would exceed my expectations for cleverness and coolness.

But does anyone know if this is actually true?

Thanks!

 

[TFlury]

This will "work" I avoid doing this as much as possible due to the added in audio delay. In several cases I have had an audio matrix in the main building and amps in a secondary building I use analog audio over fiber converters. This does require planning ahead along with your dealer being able to terminate fiber.

[cnicholson]

35 minutes ago, TFlury said:

This will "work" I avoid doing this as much as possible due to the added in audio delay. In several cases I have had an audio matrix in the main building and amps in a secondary building I use analog audio over fiber converters. This does require planning ahead along with your dealer being able to terminate fiber.

Thanks!  Do you know roughly what kind of delay are we talking about?  Distance between my actual speakers will be 200-400 feet so a modest delay would be lost in the speed-of-sound lag time.  Weirdly might be MORE "in sync" ;-).  But if we're talking seconds, then that could be an issue.

[BXTR]

The controllers input builds a 2-3 second buffer before outputting anything from its own outputs or other controllers output

[cnicholson]

1 hour ago, BXTR said:

The controllers input builds a 2-3 second buffer before outputting anything from its own outputs or other controllers output

Thanks.   Is this case also with "internal" sources (streaming services with native C4 connection)?  Or is the lag mostly from the audio-in process for "external" sources?

 

[South Africa C4 user]

I don’t think you will have any noticeable delay at 200 feet.  I have a similar situation at 50 metres (160 feet) and it works perfectly.

[lippavisual]

Digital audio from a controller will be synced.  Anything using audio inputs adds the 3 second delay. So video sources shouldn’t be used for the audio inputs.

[lippavisual]

If you have an Ethernet cable available, there are Dante adapters that you could use to send audio from location 1 to 2 without delay. 

[cnicholson]

1 hour ago, lippavisual said:

If you have an Ethernet cable available, there are Dante adapters that you could use to send audio from location 1 to 2 without delay. 

I do have some spare long runs of Cat6 between locations (although not sure how many that aren't spoken for).   In this scenario, would the audio path run from "Matrix to Matrix" instead of "Controller to Controller?"  In other words, it would be an analog signal from an output on Matrix @ Location 1 to an audio input to Matrix @ Location 2 (and vice versa for the audio being sent in other direction) and then C4 will be smart enough to figure out that the routing automagically without latency?

[tmj4]

4 hours ago, cnicholson said:

have some spare long runs of Cat6 between locations (although not sure how many that aren't spoken for)

Dante doesn't operate like HDBaseT or many of the AVoIP technologies in that it does not (generally) require it's own point to point/home run. Dante devices--unless in a large live venue--don't even necessarily need their own VLAN. Just plug the devices into a switch (many devices can be PoE-powered), configure what goes to what with their controller software, and call it a day. 

You are correct in that you'll go 

You'll need both the input (https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/545761-audinate-adp-dai-au-2x0-dante-avio-2-ch-input-adapter) and the output  (https://www.fullcompass.com/prod/545762-audinate-adp-dao-au-0x2-dante-avio-2-channel-output-adapter) devices. Note you can have a one-to-many mapping for Dante and it essentially can become it's own software defined matrix. 

You are correct that you'll go Matrix to Matrix. Here is a basic layout: 

+--Building 1-------------------------------+      +--Building 2-------------------------------+
|                          +-------------+  |      |                          +-------------+  |
|                          | Network     <------------------------------------> Network     |  |
|                          | Switch      <------------------------------------> Switch      |  |
| +-------------+          +---^^-----^^-+  |      | +-------------+          +---^^-----^^-+  |
| | Core 5      |              ||     ||    |      | | Core 5      |              ||     ||    |
| |             |              ||     ||    |      | |             |              ||     ||    |
| +--+--+--+----+              ||     ||    |      | +--+--+--+----+              ||     ||    |
|    |  |  |        +----------vv-+   ||    |      |    |  |  |        +----------vv-+   ||    |
|    |  |  |  +-----+ Dante Out   |   ||    |      |    |  |  |  +-----+ Dante Out   |   ||    |
|    |  |  |  |     |(from bldg 2)|   ||    |      |    |  |  |  |     |(from bldg 1)|   ||    |
| +--v--v--v--v-+   +-------------+   ||    |      | +--v--v--v--v-+   +-------------+   ||    |
| | Audio Matrix|                     ||    |      | | Audio Matrix|                     ||    |
| |             |                     ||    |      | |             |                     ||    |
| +--+--+--+----+          +----------vv-+  |      | +--+--+--+----+          +----------vv-+  |
|    |  |  |               | Dante In    |  |      |    |  |  |               | Dante In    |  |
|    |  |  +--------------->(to bldg 2)  |  |      |    |  |  +--------------->(to bldg 1)  |  |
| +--v--v-------+          +-------------+  |      | +--v--v-------+          +-------------+  |
| | Amp         |                           |      | | Amp         |                           |
| |             |                           |      | |             |                           |
| +-------------+                           |      | +-------------+                           |
|                                           |      |                                           |
+-------------------------------------------+      +-------------------------------------------+

+-Key+-------------------+
|                        |
| +------>   Audio Cable |
|                        |
| <------>   Ethernet    |
| <------>   Cable       |
|                        |
+------------------------+

 

5 hours ago, cnicholson said:

and then C4 will be smart enough to figure out that the routing automagically without latency?

Yes and no. Your dealer will set the connections of the devices between buildings in Composer. Dealer will also need to set the Dante mappings in Dante Controller--but this is really easy (I have a few Dante devices in my network). Dante handles the latency and keeps its own clock to keep this at a minimum. Mine usually run at around 400-700 usec (micro-seconds), so less than 1ms.

[Cyknight]

6 hours ago, lippavisual said:

Digital audio from a controller will be synced.  Anything using audio inputs adds the 3 second delay. So video sources shouldn’t be used for the audio inputs.

To be clear, using a simple example of your CD player - when you put this into a C4 controller, and then use the controllers audio outputs, it WILL sync the audio from that cd player to the other controller as well - the delay you'll notice is that if you press 'skip' for example, it'll take a for the song to actually skip, but the sound itself will be synced across the two (or more) locations. The reason it adds the delay is to do just that - keep the sound in sync.

The reason you don't want to do this with a video source is that the video and audio wouldn't be synced, but for audio only sources, this works fine.

 

Note that the 2-3 seconds is old info - the standard is 1500ms and usually more than needed (in most cases 500ms works, though many dealers don't touch the settings)
 

22 hours ago, cnicholson said:

My request is to be able to have a single audio stream play on zones connected to a matrix/amp at location 1 AND zones connected to a matrix/amp at location 2.   I had assumed I would need a way to transport audio streams back and forth.

My installer thinks that (at least with respect to audio sources originating from a Control4 Controller (perhaps not external sources)) one Core 5 can "automagically" pass a digital stream over IP to the other (distant) Core 5 and sort out the matrix routing such that I can play any (internal) source form either Core 5 on any zone project wide.

I guess, in light of Audio inputs on controllers, this might also work with external audio sources (A CD player lets say) by plugging a line-out zone from Matrix back into the audio input on the Core 5.

So yes your dealer is correct that you can do what you say in your posts.

 

Nothing against Dante (at all), but if all you're looking to do here is play audio only sources, it's overkill.

[Cyknight]

Just to note, the physical distance of 200 feet on a network is a non-issue as such, you're talking a few hundred nano seconds (or 0.000x ms)

[Jeff W]

I would recommend using fiber to connect the two networks together from different buildings.  it will help isolate power differences/grounding issues between the two buildings.  

[South Africa C4 user]

3 minutes ago, Jeff W said:

I would recommend using fiber to connect the two networks together from different buildings.  it will help isolate power differences/grounding issues between the two buildings.  

This is a good recommendation and is what I did. 

[cnicholson]

1 hour ago, Jeff W said:

I would recommend using fiber to connect the two networks together from different buildings.  it will help isolate power differences/grounding issues between the two buildings.  

That's the plan.  Fiber has been pulled that should be good for 40 Gig, with near term plan to light up with 10G backbone.  For now I'm on a 1 Gig copper run (with a repeater switch) and getting about 600Mbps.  Prob fine, but I want to future proof to be able to run high bit rate MoIP content and lots of 4K CCTV feeds. Also, I'm getting 1.4 Gigs off my Comcast box and have obsession with getting "full speed" throughout project (probably irrational).

[cnicholson]

Wow.  Awesome info and advice.  Thanks guys!

I can definitely live with ~ 1000 microsecond latency (but sync'ed) audio.  That will be perfect.  I don't have a video solution, but I figure live sports content will be "close enough" to in sync and streamed content can be just two independent streams (invoked by me manually)--- perhaps using Apple's FaceTime/Shareplay feature (or similar from others).  Would be super cool if this kind of thing could be invoked programmatically from C4, but I'm not holding my breath.  If I'm honest, I don't expect to use sync'ed video between buildings too frequently (probably mostly for demos!).

But I do expect to use synced audio a lot.  I also have some outdoor speaker zones in between the buildings, so I hope to have a Vegas Strip / Disneyland "the music is following me everywhere" kind of vibe.

Thanks again!   I'm very excited that there is a seemingly straightforward solution to what I thought might be a "hard problem."  This forum is awesome.