Just Add Power (JAP) vs Video Storm (VS)

[TrueMetal7]

Currently running a 2.8.1 Control4 system with an hdmi matrix to distribute  video for 8 sources, 4 zones (all at 1080p). Everything works great... 90% of the time. I'm looking to upgrade at least my primary zone/HT up to 4k...  which of course gives me dread since I'm currently using the hdmi matrix and it's not feasible to upgrade every screen in every zone. 

I've been reading about JAP and VS and am very excited by what they seem to offer. Both seem like great systems and users of both seem to have little to no complaints. 

I'm having a hard time doing a direct comparison of the two, so thought you guys can help me out with a few questions: 

1) Cost to install. Sounds like VS might be cheaper? Are they at least close? I can't find much by way of pricing for JAP. 

2) Is one better for using a mix of 4k and 1080p sources AND a mix of 4k and 1080p displays? 

3) Do both have licensing costs? VS mentions them and says that once purchased, you can upgrade for life. Is that similar with JAP? 

4) Can both do PIP and/or tiling and/or a video wall? 

5) Do either integrate with Control4 better? 

6) Do either work better for audio extraction or down mixing since my HT is 7.1 and all other zones are analog stereo through a Control4 matrix amp? (I currently use an Atlona HDMI audio extractor on HDMI output 5 that mirrors my HT output and then feeds the analog audio to the C4 amp. More details if requested) 

7) Do either work better for streaming to my phone/tablet as a wireless display? 

8) Are either better suited for Distributing A/V for gaming consoles (latency, etc.) 

9) Any other perks for one over the other that I haven't thought about yet? Lol. 

That should give you guys something to chew on! Feel free to reply about any of the above questions without needing to answer them all at once. Thanks in advance! 

[zaphod]

I have been looking into VS a bit so I will try to answer a couple of your questions:

1) You have probably done the VS pricing as they have a wizard to do that.  I am pretty sure that it is quite a bit cheaper than JAP.  There is some JAP pricing here:  https://www.hdtvsupply.com/juaddpolanpr.html.  It looks like the 4k JAP transmitters are around $1k.

2) It appears that 4K encoders (which are needed for VS) are pretty new and expensive.  They have just started to appear on places like AliExpress and are pretty expensive - around $400 for an encoder that does 2160p30.  You need one of these for each source on VS where the source is coming from HDMI rather than something is already a stream.  But even at $400 I think that is cheaper than the JAP.  The newer AndroidTV devices used as receivers for VS can do 4K.

7) I think that VS would be your best bet here although it appears that this only works with Android mobile devices.  Might be an issue if you have iOS devices.

One other thing is that JAP requires its own dedicated Ethernet cabling whereas VS can go over your existing LAN.  Do you have enough cabling given that it sounds like today you distribute over HDMI rather than CAT-5/6.

One other "perk" is that if you have an AndroidTV device at every TV, which is what you have with VS, then you might want to think about whether you want to do some stuff locally rather than centrally distributed as many/most sources can be "native" to AndroidTV, including Live TV and may be 4K.

[sonic30101]

1. JAP will be more expensive since. Roughly 1k per input and output not including the dedicated managed switch

2. Not to my knowledge 

3. No licensing for JAP, just setup labor of initial config.

4. Yes, but JAP needs an additional price of hardware

5. I haven't set up VS but JAP is very simple and extremely reliable. Have had it for 4 years and never had any issues

6. Not that I am aware of

7. JAP cannot stream to anything other than its decoders/receivers

8. Too much latency for gaming on VS. JAP can if you are using 3g gear

9. I think JAP is more reliable but not by a whole lot from the reading I have done. Many say it is great but they have had occasional issues. VS is a fantastic platform as well, but in terms of uptime JAP squeaks the win on reliability. It will be cheaper to do VS and it has a few bells and whistles like PiP and on screen notifications that JAP doesn't do right out of the box and if you go in knowing you might have an issue here or there then it may be your go to. If I had to pay for it I probably would have gone VS because I have pro, can troubleshoot and fix everything myself, but I got an entire 2g+ system that a customer had us haul off when they upgraded to 3g and I snagged a few 3g parts for key areas. 

[TrueMetal7]

Awesome, thanks guys. I do have cat5e cabling going everywhere currently, but could add more runs if required for JAP. (Done most of my house wiring myself already, gotta love an unfinished attic space) 

I like that VS sounds cheaper overall, and also the native PiP ability (JAP can with extra hardware?). Also, the streaming to Android devices sounds killer! (I only use Android devices vs iOS anyway).

However, the latency issue on consoles is concerning... Since everything gets synced, I assume it's a bad idea to put consoles on the VS network at all? Or maybe run them in the HT and use an hdmi splitter into a JAP/VS Tx so that they can be viewed/listened to on other zones, albeit with likely synch issues? 

Also, I have a 48 port (3 blocks of 16) managed poe+ switch that I currently route everything through (Enterasys C5g124-48p2 {now Extreme Networks}). Would I need to add a dedicated new switch for both JAP or VS? Or can my switch use one 16 port block for the a/v routing and the other two blocks for general networking? 

 

[msgreenf]

IMHO JAP is a better solution set.  to get PIP you do have to buy the tiler.  Pricing can be much more competitive then what is quoted here

[zaphod]

I would say that it is a bad idea to put gaming on a system like VS - but what type of gaming are you looking at?  Don't overlook the fact that if you Nvidia Shields at each TV as the VS receiver that you can do some pretty serious gaming on the Shield.  

[msgreenf]

Awesome, thanks guys. I do have cat5e cabling going everywhere currently, but could add more runs if required for JAP. (Done most of my house wiring myself already, gotta love an unfinished attic space) 
I like that VS sounds cheaper overall, and also the native PiP ability (JAP can with extra hardware?). Also, the streaming to Android devices sounds killer! (I only use Android devices vs iOS anyway).
However, the latency issue on consoles is concerning... Since everything gets synced, I assume it's a bad idea to put consoles on the VS network at all? Or maybe run them in the HT and use an hdmi splitter into a JAP/VS Tx so that they can be viewed/listened to on other zones, albeit with likely synch issues? 
Also, I have a 48 port (3 blocks of 16) managed poe+ switch that I currently route everything through (Enterasys C5g124-48p2 {now Extreme Networks}). Would I need to add a dedicated new switch for both JAP or VS? Or can my switch use one 16 port block for the a/v routing and the other two blocks for general networking? 
 

You would need a dedicated switch for Jap. It requires certain models

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[Gix656]

Currently running a 2.8.1 Control4 system with an hdmi matrix to distribute  video for 8 sources, 4 zones (all at 1080p). Everything works great... 90% of the time. I'm looking to upgrade at least my primary zone/HT up to 4k...  which of course gives me dread since I'm currently using the hdmi matrix and it's not feasible to upgrade every screen in every zone. 
I've been reading about JAP and VS and am very excited by what they seem to offer. Both seem like great systems and users of both seem to have little to no complaints. 
I'm having a hard time doing a direct comparison of the two, so thought you guys can help me out with a few questions: 
1) Cost to install. Sounds like VS might be cheaper? Are they at least close? I can't find much by way of pricing for JAP. 
2) Is one better for using a mix of 4k and 1080p sources AND a mix of 4k and 1080p displays? 
3) Do both have licensing costs? VS mentions them and says that once purchased, you can upgrade for life. Is that similar with JAP? 
4) Can both do PIP and/or tiling and/or a video wall? 
5) Do either integrate with Control4 better? 
6) Do either work better for audio extraction or down mixing since my HT is 7.1 and all other zones are analog stereo through a Control4 matrix amp? (I currently use an Atlona HDMI audio extractor on HDMI output 5 that mirrors my HT output and then feeds the analog audio to the C4 amp. More details if requested) 
7) Do either work better for streaming to my phone/tablet as a wireless display? 
8) Are either better suited for Distributing A/V for gaming consoles (latency, etc.) 
9) Any other perks for one over the other that I haven't thought about yet? Lol. 
That should give you guys something to chew on! Feel free to reply about any of the above questions without needing to answer them all at once. Thanks in advance! 

I've had experience with both systems. However I've only used the first gen VS receivers.

Performance and reliability JAP wins hands down

For flexability and cost VS wins

Don't even bother trying to use a gaming system with VS. The latency is between 400ms to 1 second. This latency also plays a big role in menu navigation, but once you get used to it it's not a deal breaker.

VS picture in picture can be handy. The ability to add cameras as a video source is nice. Video tiling is also nice for watching multiple sports or digital signage.

Lately my VS system has required a bit more maintenance then usual for some reason. However I am a installer / tech so it's not a big deal for me. But if I'm not home and it stops working I get an ear full from the wife and kids.

One other thing that may be a deal breaker is if you have the same source on multiple TVs they can sometimes be out of sync. This can cause an echo if the rooms are within ear shot of one another.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

[lippavisual]

7 hours ago, Gix656 said:

I've had experience with both systems. However I've only used the first gen VS receivers.

Performance and reliability JAP wins hands down

For flexability and cost VS wins

Don't even bother trying to use a gaming system with VS. The latency is between 400ms to 1 second. This latency also plays a big role in menu navigation, but once you get used to it it's not a deal breaker.

VS picture in picture can be handy. The ability to add cameras as a video source is nice. Video tiling is also nice for watching multiple sports or digital signage.

Lately my VS system has required a bit more maintenance then usual for some reason. However I am a installer / tech so it's not a big deal for me. But if I'm not home and it stops working I get an ear full from the wife and kids.

One other thing that may be a deal breaker is if you have the same source on multiple TVs they can sometimes be out of sync. This can cause an echo if the rooms are within ear shot of one another.

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
 

I don’t share the same the experiences.

my VS systems have been rock solid.  The key here, because they aren’t Poe devices, you need to get Poe splitters for each VRX receiver.  This way they get powered by your switch that is on a ups.  Systems have been 100% reliable since then.

Also when configuring the system initially, there is a setting in the matrix manager that will sync all devices, so you turn every room on and hit that button.  That setting makes sure everything gets locked in.  Have had zero problems with syncing sources in multiple zones. 

[wappinghigh]

Read the thread JAP for Dummies for the dummies understanding of how JAP works.

Rock on C4

W

 

[eggzlot]

I’ve have VS 3+ years.  100% uptime.  It’s maybe the only 3rd party device in my c4 system that hasn’t had 1 glitch due to a software or hardware issues - cameras have died, sonos don’t get me started with software changes, original 2 monoprice hdmi switches failed, the list goes on.  Not a blip.  pip, text onscreen, using IP cameras as a source, list goes on.  With the DIY netplay home it’s almost a no brainer with the cost to feature ratio. 

I could not recommend it enough.  If you are doing a big install get their audio switch too. 

[zaphod]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

I’ve have VS 3+ years.  100% uptime.  ...

What do you use for receivers?

[lippavisual]

VRX which are basically rebadged and modified PI’s.

ill be getting a new Sony soon so will have a test with the app version.

[zaphod]

When you say PIs is that Raspberry Pis?

[lippavisual]

YEs

[eggzlot]

22 hours ago, zaphod said:

What do you use for receivers?

Correct I used vrx in my system.   I got in before byoh and net play home was available.  

[videostorm]

Disclaimer:  I work for Video Storm, so maybe a little biased 

1) Cost to install. Sounds like VS might be cheaper? Are they at least close? I can't find much by way of pricing for JAP. 

    NetPlay Home really sets the bar for the most affordable video distribution systems.  Not only is the hardware itself less expensive, you also need a lot LESS of it because we support so many network video sources natively or by virtue of the fact our decoders are full featured Android streaming devices.  In Control4, you can seamlessly switch between your distributed video sources, network sources, or streaming apps with just the "Watch" button.

2) Is one better for using a mix of 4k and 1080p sources AND a mix of 4k and 1080p displays? 

   NetPlay is multi resolution by design.  4K sources will display in 4K on 4K decoders/TVs, or 1080p or 1080p devices, or even SD on mobile device.  At the SAME TIME with no additional hardware or configuration needed.  

3) Do both have licensing costs? VS mentions them and says that once purchased, you can upgrade for life. Is that similar with JAP? 

   Because NetPlay Home uses standard consumer hardware (Amazon Fire TVs, nVidia Shields, Sony TVs, etc) for our decoders, we primarily make our money by selling a software license for each TV ($90/TV).  This works to the customers advantage because this license is perpetual, meaning you only pay this once.  When you later update your decoders to take advantage of new features (8K, etc) your NetPlay license ports to the new hardware for free.   Bottom line is it allows for lower cost upgrades in the future verses replacing "custom" hardware.

4) Can both do PIP and/or tiling and/or a video wall? 

  Yes, but in our system all these are FREE and independently configurable at every TV.  With others you will pay significantly for these features.

5) Do either integrate with Control4 better? 

  Yes, full C4 integration partners

6) Do either work better for audio extraction or down mixing since my HT is 7.1 and all other zones are analog stereo through a Control4 matrix amp? (I currently use an Atlona HDMI audio extractor on HDMI output 5 that mirrors my HT output and then feeds the analog audio to the C4 amp. More details if requested) 

  NetPlay supports simultaneous 5.1 and stereo with conversion / downmixing on HDMI sources.  For network/file/streaming sources a wide variety of audio formats are supported, also with full downmixing.

  We also offer our CMX - A2 DSP audio switches which can handle all your audio needs externally.

7) Do either work better for streaming to my phone/tablet as a wireless display? 

  NetPlay fully supports windowed and full screen display to Android mobile devices.  On other OS devices you can stream our video using 3rd party apps, but it is a hassle IMO.

8) Are either better suited for Distributing A/V for gaming consoles (latency, etc.) 

  NetPlay should NOT be used for distributing gaming consoles.  However, if you are using nVidia Shield as some or all of your decoders you already have an excellent gaming console directly at the TVs.  

  In my experience (I am a gamer), you shouldn't distribute gaming consoles via ANY AV over IP system.  Particularly for FPS games, even a small amount of additional latency puts you at a big disadvantage.  TVs have "gaming" modes for reason.  Best to have the consoles directly attached to the TVs.

9) Any other perks for one over the other that I haven't thought about yet? Lol. 

  NetPlay supports SplashTiles which is a killer feature for many people.  Also, our IP camera integration is second to none.

 

[Pounce]

On 2/7/2018 at 7:12 AM, lippavisual said:

Also when configuring the system initially, there is a setting in the matrix manager that will sync all devices, so you turn every room on and hit that button.  That setting makes sure everything gets locked in.  Have had zero problems with syncing sources in multiple zones. 

Sync across zones is my concern with going with the VS system. I understand that this is solved in some way. If there are 6 zones and 3 pairs of zones are playing the same content are the pairs in sync after the configuration you mention? When I read your post I started to wonder about how the sync is managed and since I don't have the system yet I am unsure.

 

I'm also comparing to JAP. I'm curious if anyone can compare the tiling features between the two. I know with JAP its a hardware device. It's just a little hard to tell in practice what the delta is in basic functionality and performance. I thought the mosaic and chroma features of JAP were pretty cool. I don't think those are available on VS.

[videostorm]

For audio sync, sinks (zones) are either set for "local" audio or "centralized" audio.  Use local if you use TV speakers / audio attached to the TV, or centralized if you are using rack mounted audio.  If you like to listen to the same TV audio in multiple zones at the same time (open floor plans, etc), use "centralized" audio to avoid slight mismatches in the delay caused by differences in TV design.  You also have the ability to individually adjust AV delay at each zone, but there really isn't any need for that.

Not sure what their mosaic or chroma features are?  NetPlay Home supports full HTML5 and WebGL sources.  These can be used for some really cool screen savers or effects.  Take a look at these examples:  Google WebGL app demos

Our tiling allows you to pre define up to 8 tiling screen "formats" (1x2, 2x2, 2x3, etc) which are fully configurable.  You can then dynamically select any of the screen formats at any TV and assign sources to them individually or in batches.  You can switch between tiled, pip, or full screen very easily.  Best of all, completely free feature on your NetPlay system.  

In their system, you are buying a hardware piece that has 4 decoders and an encoder in it.  That device can be configured for a given format with given sources, and then you can select the output of that device at other TVs.  If you want more options, you can buy more of those devices (but they are not cheap).

[Pounce]

27 minutes ago, videostorm said:

 

Not sure what their mosaic or chroma features are? 

I only know what I have seen and read. Maybe the company can go into more detail.

Mosaic is built into their system. It would allow a person to create a video wall of mismatches and randomly places TV's and through configuration align them to a video image. When the video plays it's all in sync and looks like you are looking into portals etc. Pretty cool for a commercial setting. For my interest that would work well for portrait mode video wall.

Chromakey on their tiler allows overlay and transparency plus using one image of say text to drop out the video from another source. That could enable fun effects for commercial like ticker text that is a live video feed.

https://support.justaddpower.com/kb/article/160-chromakey-with-a-2g4-video-tiler/

 

Can VS tiling do 90 degree rotation of the TV?

[msgreenf]

@Kevin L can answer some of the JAP questions

[videostorm]

"Mosaic":  So yes, our video wall feature supports arbitrary TV sizes, orientations / rotation, and configurations.  We have some videos of this on our facebook page.

Image/video overlay:  We support image overlay with transparency.  We also support HTML5 overlay with transparency, which is way cooler     Finally, we can actually do 3D object rendering on top of video (spinning 3D logos, Tie fighters flying around the screen, live tickers, Facebook feeds, all sorts of cool stuff).  We don't do chromakey video specifically, instead we use HTML5/WebGL which is a lot more powerful and can do more (for example, your live transparent ticker pulls its data from the cloud in real time).

[Pounce]

9 minutes ago, videostorm said:

"Mosaic":  So yes, our video wall feature supports arbitrary TV sizes, orientations / rotation, and configurations.  We have some videos of this on our facebook page.

Image/video overlay:  We support image overlay with transparency.  We also support HTML5 overlay with transparency, which is way cooler     Finally, we can actually do 3D object rendering on top of video (spinning 3D logos, Tie fighters flying around the screen, live tickers, Facebook feeds, all sorts of cool stuff).  We don't do chromakey video specifically, instead we use HTML5/WebGL which is a lot more powerful and can do more (for example, your live transparent ticker pulls its data from the cloud in real time).

Cool. Can you link me to a video that shows an example of arbitrary TV placement? Can you overlay video with transparency? Such as two football games full screen with one set at 80% transparency?

[videostorm]

Here is a video of a vertical column video wall   https://www.facebook.com/256307944488893/videos/1491259144327094/

One of our installers just did a mosaic using 16 gap-ed displays on the ceiling of the Weston in Chicago, but I don't have a video of it yet unfortunately.  

Overlay video with global transparency / alpha?  You know that just looks like ghosting, right    I think technically you could do it but why?    

[ecschnei]

On 2/12/2018 at 7:45 PM, videostorm said:

2) Is one better for using a mix of 4k and 1080p sources AND a mix of 4k and 1080p displays? 

   NetPlay is multi resolution by design.  4K sources will display in 4K on 4K decoders/TVs, or 1080p or 1080p devices, or even SD on mobile device.  At the SAME TIME with no additional hardware or configuration needed

So this netplay has a 4k60 encoder? The specs on the VTX100 say up to 1080