Whole house C4 switch replacement - Advice please!!

[Larry]

So I leave the remotes in their charging cradles, plugged in, and they all end up showing no or very-low charge, and not correctly responding to the color buttons which I have configured.  I need to remove the batteries to re-boot.  I showed my dealer's tech, and he agreed -- remove the batteries.  Did I get old stock, a firmware problem that has been corrected? Or can you not leave them in the charging cradle all the time?

I appreciate the help and advice.  These SR-260's (five of them) have been a MAJOR disappointment.

@RyanE -- how can I tell if they are old?  Serial number range?

[eddy.trochez]

Is charging enabled in Composer?

[msgreenf]

4 minutes ago, Larry said:

So I leave the remotes in their charging cradles, plugged in, and they all end up showing no or very-low charge, and not correctly responding to the color buttons which I have configured.  I need to remove the batteries to re-boot.  I showed my dealer's tech, and he agreed -- remove the batteries.  Did I get old stock, a firmware problem that has been corrected? Or can you not leave them in the charging cradle all the time?

I appreciate the help and advice.  These SR-260's (five of them) have been a MAJOR disappointment.

@RyanE -- how can I tell if they are old?  Serial number range?

Its got nothing to with age.  Firmware is updated when C4 director is updated.  If you keep getting low batteries it does sound like something is not right.  There are 2 things I would look at 1) are the remotes configured to use rechargeable batteries? There is a setting that must be turned on.  2) REALLY still sounds like a mesh problem! What zigbee channel are you on?

[Gary Leeds UK]

9 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Yuck. Hit one light switch and it's all messed up. No thanks

 

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We have one Room and one Floor all Phillip Hue - Works like a dream

[Larry]

Thanks for the advice and questions re the remote issue.  Will check all these issues when I am next at the new house, which is next week.  Very eager to get this issue fixed, since of course these remotes are handy -- you can't talk to Alexa when others are sleeping in the room!  Also note -- I have a tablet, and it always responds perfectly to all lighting requests.  Now the tablet uses WiFi not ZigBee, correct?  I thought (following suggestions here) that I choose Channel 25, but will check.  I was thinking of replacing the remotes with more tablets, but they are larger.  I do keep the tablet on its charger, but the physical design of the charger makes that hard (a) in the dark, and (b) when it is behind you, like in an easy-chair situation (where the chair is in front of the side table) ... while the remotes slide right in to their cradles, no "hooking" needed.

I will start a new thread, since I am guilty of hijacking this one, as I have in the past, sorry.  I was just trying to help the OP.

[msgreenf]

27 minutes ago, Larry said:

Now the tablet uses WiFi not ZigBee, correct?

correct

28 minutes ago, Larry said:

 I was thinking of replacing the remotes with more tablets, but they are larger.  I do keep the tablet on its charger, but the physical design of the charger makes that hard (a) in the dark, and (b) when it is behind you, like in an easy-chair situation (where the chair is in front of the side table) ... while the remotes slide right in to their cradles, no "hooking" needed.

personally i would never replace remotes with tablets for TV areas.  Remotes are tactical and work without looking. If i had to take my phone out every time I wanted to turn the volume up or change channels that wouldn't fly.  Also, i can't use a tablet without looking.  I can browse channels with a remote all day without looking.

[Mntneer]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

Thanks for the advice and questions re the remote issue.  Will check all these issues when I am next at the new house, which is next week.  Very eager to get this issue fixed, since of course these remotes are handy -- you can't talk to Alexa when others are sleeping in the room!  Also note -- I have a tablet, and it always responds perfectly to all lighting requests.  Now the tablet uses WiFi not ZigBee, correct?  I thought (following suggestions here) that I choose Channel 25, but will check.  I was thinking of replacing the remotes with more tablets, but they are larger.  I do keep the tablet on its charger, but the physical design of the charger makes that hard (a) in the dark, and (b) when it is behind you, like in an easy-chair situation (where the chair is in front of the side table) ... while the remotes slide right in to their cradles, no "hooking" needed.

I will start a new thread, since I am guilty of hijacking this one, as I have in the past, sorry.  I was just trying to help the OP.

 

One thing I've noticed in some of the 260's I've gotten of late is the contacts on the remote, which make contact to the prongs on the re-charging cradle, are slightly recessed which is causing the 260's to not get a recharge from the cradle.  I've had to fix 4 remotes in the past few months.  Could be your 260's are not getting a good charge consistently.

[Larry]

25 minutes ago, Mntneer said:

 

One thing I've noticed in some of the 260's I've gotten of late is the contacts on the remote, which make contact to the prongs on the re-charging cradle, are slightly recessed which is causing the 260's to not get a recharge from the cradle.  I've had to fix 4 remotes in the past few months.  Could be your 260's are not getting a good charge consistently.

What's the fix for this?  Bend the pins somehow?  Wow, interesting.

[Mntneer]

1 minute ago, Larry said:

What's the fix for this?  Bend the pins somehow?  Wow, interesting.

If you take the battery cover off the the remote, a small cover plate is seen attached by 2 small screws.  If you remove those screws you can remove the contacts and bend them ever so slightly until they "protrude" more out of the battery cover.  Might take a little trial and error, but it's what worked best for me.

[Derrick Cain]

2 hours ago, Larry said:

So I leave the remotes in their charging cradles, plugged in, and they all end up showing no or very-low charge, and not correctly responding to the color buttons which I have configured.  I need to remove the batteries to re-boot.  I showed my dealer's tech, and he agreed -- remove the batteries.  Did I get old stock, a firmware problem that has been corrected? Or can you not leave them in the charging cradle all the time?

I appreciate the help and advice.  These SR-260's (five of them) have been a MAJOR disappointment.

If these are are staying a static percentage, but the remote is working fine, it's most likely that "Recharge Station" is not enabled.  You can enable this from your remote, try these steps next time you're home.

1. On your remote press the "List" button

2. Press the down direction arrow until you highlight “Settings” and hit the “select” button

3. Press the down direction arrow until you highlight “Config” and hit the “select” button

4. Press the down direction arrow until you highlight “Recharge Station” and hit the “select” button

5. Press the down direction arrow until you highlight “Yes” and hit the “select” button

6. The remote may reboot.
 

 

[Cyknight]

3 hours ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

We have one Room and one Floor all Phillip Hue - Works like a dream

It tends to work fine, but COST adds up quickly depending on your lighting.

Sure, one dimmer from C4 is is more expensive than a bulb and bridge - but one dimmer may well be controlling 10 potlights.....

[RyanE]

As others have mentioned, my remotes working better was due to a later Control4 OS release, not a later remote.

I recommend ZigBee Channel 25 if not set to that.  I haven't seen the charging station issue, but definitely set the rechargeables mode, and check those terminals.

Sorry you've had issues with them.

RyanE

 

[niall]

On 20/02/2017 at 11:10 PM, AdamCMH said:

3.) How reliable are the switches? (IE. How often will the signal fail and not turn on the desired light?) 

I wouldn't worry about the signal failing, the biggest issue with C4 lighting for resilience is the director being a single point of failure.

The other week my controller died and we couldn't turn the lights on or off for 2 days.

If I did this again I would choose a system where each switch worked in the event of a failure to any other component in the system.

I've never used Insteon, but as they don't need a hub to work maybe they are better for resilience.

[msgreenf]

I wouldn't worry about the signal failing, the biggest issue with C4 lighting for resilience is the director being a single point of failure.

The other week my controller died and we couldn't turn the lights on or off for 2 days.

If I did this again I would choose a system where each switch worked in the event of a failure to any other component in the system.

I've never used Insteon, but as they don't need a hub to work maybe they are better for resilience.

The latest gen lighting or panelized can work without the controller. Just have to design for it.

 

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[Thatguy230]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

The latest gen lighting or panelized can work without the controller. Just have to design for it.

 

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Unless it's a configurable keypad location.  Then only the switch carrying the load will work

[niall]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

The latest gen lighting or panelized can work without the controller. Just have to design for it.

Its good to know that the ones with the built in dimmers can work without the controllers.

All panel systems just move the single point of failure - had dimmer packs go on me before affecting 8 rooms at a time.

[Larry]

22 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

The latest gen lighting or panelized can work without the controller. Just have to design for it.

Wow, how do you "design for it"?  Do you mean the single-load toggle switches (these are hidden in my closets) and also the loads controlled by a keypad (most of my programmable keypads control a load too) if the controller goes out?  How?  This is GREAT advice for any new installation!!  I never thought to ask my dealer "What happens if the EA5 dies?".  Should installations have a second controller, live, as a back-up?  A smaller one?  Does that work?  How?  Oh well, something new to worry about.

[SMHarman]

Its good to know that the ones with the built in dimmers can work without the controllers.

All panel systems just move the single point of failure - had dimmer packs go on me before affecting 8 rooms at a time.

But with the right box in the panel there is a duplicate of basic lighting code there as a backup.

[niall]

2 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

But with the right box in the panel there is a duplicate of basic lighting code there as a backup.

What I mean is if a dimmer pack fails in the panel it takes down all the lights connected to it. I have 8 on each pack in my install - and looking at the new C4 centralized lighting its 8 channels per module as well.

If you have the dimmer localised in the switch, the worst that can happen is a switch fails and you loose 1 light.

If you have multiple lights in a room, you would put the main light on the switch and the others on remote dimmers. So in the event of a failure to the controller you can still have at least 1 light per room.

Or you pay through the nose for a support contract with a 4 hour response time - if one exists. I think centralised lighting works for businesses where they have these support agreements, but not so much for houses.

[SMHarman]

What I mean is if a dimmer pack fails in the panel it takes down all the lights connected to it. I have 8 on each pack in my install - and looking at the new C4 centralized lighting its 8 channels per module as well.

If you have the dimmer localised in the switch, the worst that can happen is a switch fails and you loose 1 light.

If you have multiple lights in a room, you would put the main light on the switch and the others on remote dimmers. So in the event of a failure to the controller you can still have at least 1 light per room.

Or you pay through the nose for a support contract with a 4 hour response time - if one exists. I think centralised lighting works for businesses where they have these support agreements, but not so much for houses.

I got what you meant but likely a whole pack going down would be an electrical surge that could just as easily take out multiple dimmers individual dimmers.

 

In my panel I skipped the controlling module there and the panel runs Secondary lights in most rooms. A wiring error means it runs all 110v in the kitchen but as I could fix that with programming it did not matter.

 

This also means each room has a keypad dimmer for a strong zigbee network. Even in a NYC apartment.

[SMHarman]

 

Wow, how do you "design for it"?  Do you mean the single-load toggle switches (these are hidden in my closets) and also the loads controlled by a keypad (most of my programmable keypads control a load too) if the controller goes out?  How?  This is GREAT advice for any new installation!!  I never thought to ask my dealer "What happens if the EA5 dies?".  Should installations have a second controller, live, as a back-up?  A smaller one?  Does that work?  How?  Oh well, something new to worry about.

 

 

 

Basically yes. An ea3 or 800 can run the codebase of the ea5 in 99 percent of installs. At least short term.

 

 

You would make the slave the director. Install the project. Jump through a few hoops and be on your way. Not easy but if a dealer could team view onto your network they could do this remotely.

 

 

[niall]

5 minutes ago, SMHarman said:

I got what you meant but likely a whole pack going down would be an electrical surge that could just as easily take out multiple dimmers individual dimmers.

I had no failures on my dimmer packs for 5 years, then I've had 3 in the last six months. Its not an electrical surge thats killing them, I can tell they are on the way out because they start flickering a couple of weeks before they give in.

I think you are onto something running your primarys off the keypads, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Unfortunately for me I had it all wired centrally when I built the house, it cost more for the electrician and the cable as well. Oh well, you live and learn.

[SMHarman]

I had no failures on my dimmer packs for 5 years, then I've had 3 in the last six months. Its not an electrical surge thats killing them, I can tell they are on the way out because they start flickering a couple of weeks before they give in.

I think you are onto something running your primarys off the keypads, that makes a lot of sense to me.

Unfortunately for me I had it all wired centrally when I built the house, it cost more for the electrician and the cable as well. Oh well, you live and learn.

And what a two year warranty on those.

 

Ugh. That's an expensive consumable every 5 years.

[niall]

Just now, SMHarman said:

And what a two year warranty on those.

 

Ugh. That's an expensive consumable every 5 years.

Thats what I thought, I've got the edin mode system that C4 used to rebadge in the UK.

First one that died I had to buy a new pack from the dealer, then I contacted the OEM directly and asked them if they did repairs - they fixed the broken one for me in 2 days and it cost 10% of a new module.

How glad am I that it was an OEM part, if I asked C4 to fix it for me I wonder how long and much that would cost.

[Larry]

@SMHarman -- great idea.  I will get a remote dealer (I am about to chose one from this forum, I told my installing dealer I will still use him for other things, but not C4 programming, installs, and similar issues -- I think C4 should allow more than one dealer on an account but they don't, so I will toggle) to sell and ship me an EA3 and install it as the slave, following your posted instructions.

You said 99% of the time this works -- what's the 1% issue?

Don't you think all new installs should consider this approach -- to not have lights is terrible.  I assume the slave EA3 would pick up the commands and take over seamlessly.

How do I know when the EA5 fails?  

Where should the ES3 be located?  Since my mesh seems OK, why not right next to the EA5?  Could they share the load?  Would this set-up confuse Alexa?

Should we start a new thread for "EA3 backing up EA5's" ??