Is C4 getting lapped by open source solutions?

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, wnpublic said:

I thought you were somehow suggesting that pollling is less reliable, sorry I misunderstood.  Real time?  That is a meaningless argument, unless you are changing your light levels every few seconds.  When you effect a change in the HA interface, it takes place immediately, and the UI updates immediately.  Maybe you should actually try the integration, then toss off your rejoinders.  Until then? as you say, meh.

I don't have experience with ha, but based on user feedback actually, the difference between polling and immediate is a noticeable difference.

The original Shelly driver for instance used to have a 0-250ms delay in some cases. People noticed immediately when things were optimised so most of the time it became near 0ms

If you try a Shelly gen 1 device (poll based) and compare to a Shelly gen 2 (websockets), even if you're polling at 100ms, the difference is noticeable.

For automation purposes, it doesn't really matter, but for user experience, responsiveness is obvious

[therockhr]

4 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

Some folks' experience with this stuff doesn't extend past their own front door. We're a very successful C4 showroom and if I told one of my clients to access the GUI on their Raspberry Pi they'd say, "hold on, let me get to the kitchen..."

As has been established, it's a hobby for some folks and has no more bearing on Control4 than a pair of roller skates does to Audi.

why would you tell them that? that makes no sense. The equivalent to that in Control4 would be to say "access the GUI on the EA-1". No matter what system you are using, the goal is to present a consistent and usable GUI to the homeowner and show them how to use the system. What is in the backend, whether it is a Raspberry PI or some supercomputer is immaterial. Control4 could almost certainly run on a Raspberry PI if it needed to.

There is also some irony in this considering that the Control4 controllers run on an open source project. Will home assistant or some other open source home project ever make it its way to being that mainstream? I would almost guarantee no, but it could get to the level of say XMBC and then maybe some company forks it off (like they did Plex) into some more commercial product.

[RyanE]

5 minutes ago, therockhr said:

There is also some irony in this considering that the Control4 controllers run on an open source project.

Not really a valid point, there's no irony to the base OS being Linux, because Linux has nothing to do with Director, which is a completely custom and *not* open source, and Director runs the home automation project, and other non-open source daemons on the controller handle audio, I/O, etc.

Director could just as well run on Windows or on a different or real-time OS.  It's literally even compiled and shipped for Windows (virtual Director).

RyanE

[wnpublic]

23 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

As has been established, it's a hobby for some folks and has no more bearing on Control4 than a pair of roller skates does to Audi

This type of smug certainty is part of every crash cycle.  I remember it well when I was part of the Palm ecosystem (including both a hardware OEM and a downstream entity).  Next come the big losses (already happened), consolidation with another brand (already happened), retrenchment and sticking it out selling new versions to a shrinking pool of the faithful but failing to grow market, then a last ditch, horse-after-the-barn-door effort dedicated to innovating around the problems, then - fire sale.   Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.

[Jack_Ckun]

26 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Cool cool. Maybe stick to what you actually know then. 

if they can handle control4. they can definitely handle HS.

I hate the Home assistant cult. Anytime you say something about the product you get bashed or the oh you waste money with C4,Crestron,Urc etc.

The lovelace interface is sucks and will never be as good as C4,Crestron,Urc etc. and i am not saying they are the greatest.

BC in my opinion the control4 user interface was not good until a few releases in to OS 2.

 

 

[therockhr]

4 minutes ago, RyanE said:

Not really a valid point, there's no irony to the base OS being Linux, because Linux has nothing to do with Director, which is a completely custom and *not* open source, and Director runs the home automation project, and other non-open source daemons on the controller handle audio, I/O, etc.

Director could just as well run on Windows or on a different or real-time OS.  It's literally even compiled and shipped for Windows (virtual Director).

RyanE

His quote was:

"Anyone making an obsolescence argument against Control4 in favor of Home Assistant or open source platforms in general sounds like a cult member. It's a perfectly viable hobby, but I don't come from my woodcarving retreat and ponder aloud, "what are furniture stores going to do when this catches on!?"

He specifically mentioned open platforms. And like you said, Control4 can run on Windows. Home assistant could probably run on a Control4 controller as well.

My point is valid. You know you dont always have to side with dealers when they make stupid comments?

 

 

[RyanE]

15 minutes ago, therockhr said:

My point is valid. You know you dont always have to side with dealers when they make stupid comments?

I disagree.  I don't always have to side with dealers, but I do when I think they're right.

RyanE

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, RyanE said:

I disagree.  I don't always have to side with dealers, but I do when I think they're right.

RyanE

i guess you are going to have to explain to me like im a 2 year old how i am wrong.

The guy said open source platforms in general are a hobby. Linux (the OS that Control4 runs on) is an open source project. Is Control4 then just a hobby?

[RyanE]

2 minutes ago, therockhr said:

i guess you are going to have to explain to me like im a 2 year old how i am wrong.

The guy said open source platforms in general are a hobby. Linux (the OS that Control4 runs on) is an open source project. Is Control4 then just a hobby?

Maybe I should explain to you how I never said you were wrong.

I said I thought the response was right.  That doesn't mean you're wrong.

I don't think Control4 is being lapped by open source solutions.  Are they a viable alternative for some people?  Sure.

This whole pissing match of a year old thread is pointless, and I'm done with it.

Peace out.

RyanE

[CTMatthew]

 

38 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

This type of smug certainty is part of every crash cycle.  I remember it well when I was part of the Palm ecosystem (including both a hardware OEM and a downstream entity).  Next come the big losses (already happened), consolidation with another brand (already happened), retrenchment and sticking it out selling new versions to a shrinking pool of the faithful but failing to grow market, then a last ditch, horse-after-the-barn-door effort dedicated to innovating around the problems, then - fire sale.   Looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.

Ah yes. How can we forget when Palm crashed and burned leaving all of us with open-source user maintained phones in our pockets

[therockhr]

3 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

 

Ah yes. How can we forget when Palm crashed and burned leaving all of us with open-source user maintained phones in our pockets

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

[eggzlot]

why do threads always go down this wormhole

DIY people are not those who would buy C4 and vice versa.  And that is ok.  It doesn't make one better than another.

Even if there was a DIY platform with identical speed, features, hardware, UI, etc to C4, there is still a market for C4 (and Savant, Crestron, etc).  There is a class of people who don't know anything about technology, they do not want to support it, they do not want to design it, they don't want to keep up with the latest, etc.  There are people who work 40+ hours a week and come home and don't want to tinker or update things, if there is a problem, they call someone to come fix it.  They have a family, they have other interests and updating firmware on a camera or figuring out how to run a balun to get audio back to a rack is not really what they want to be doing.

I've used this analogy before, I could cut my own lawn, but I hire someone to do it.  They would likely do it better than me, and on the weekends the last thing I want to do is spend a few hours working on my yard, so I outsource it.  I could go to store locally, pretty much get all the hardware and tools I need and I could go medium grade or professional grade on the tools, and own it, maintain them, service them and then use them in yard.  I'd also have to manage the weather because if it rains on the weekend I may have to find time at night after work in the dark to keep up with the lawn, it becomes a burden on me, my wife would keep asking why our lawn hasn't been cut in over a week, etc.   Don't get me started on post storm branch pick up - that would be awful!

Instead, I write a check every month and let someone else handle it.  Is Lowes/Home Depot putting the local lawn care service people out of business because you can also buy the stuff for the DIY crowd in a store?  Is Lowes/Home Depot "Lapping" your local landscape company?  At least by me, they seem to co-exist very nicely - the home improvement stores are always busy and there are plenty of landscapers in my area making what I assume to be a good living as they are out there year after year.

 

[therockhr]

33 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

DIY people are not those who would buy C4 and vice versa.  And that is ok.  It doesn't make one better than another.

This isnt exactly true though. There are lots of people who would buy/use Control4 over other solutions if they had access to add devices themselves. They are forced onto other products because of this. Sure there are some people who would choose an open source type of project even if they could program C4 because the open source piece would have more options.

I think its ok to answer the question posed on this topic truthfully; the open source solutions are NOT passing Control4. They could in the future though as has been proven in other areas but right now, its just not ready for widespread adoption outside of enthusiasts, especially if you need comprehensive AV control. 

[eggzlot]

4 minutes ago, therockhr said:

This isnt exactly true though. There are lots of people who would buy/use Control4 over other solutions if they had access to add devices themselves. They are forced onto other products because of this. Sure there are some people who would choose an open source type of project even if they could program C4 because the open source piece would have more options.

I think its ok to answer the question posed on this topic truthfully; the open source solutions are NOT passing Control4. They could in the future though as has been proven in other areas but right now, its just not ready for widespread adoption outside of enthusiasts, especially if you need comprehensive AV control. 

Going back to my analogy, it is kind of true.  If I want weeding services I need to use the mulch my landscaper sells.  If I decide to mulch on my own he will not provide weeding services.

{Not directly saying this as a response to @therockhr} > Its time to realize after what, 10+ years, C4 is not a DIY platform, it is a dealer based platform, period.  So when you say "lots of people would buy/sell Control4 over other solutions" that doesn't matter.  I'd buy cheaper mulch if my landscaper would weed it, but he won't, he never has nor will he at any point.  That is not his business model.

It is just tiring on the forum when people are posting how they can change the C4 business model - if it is that easy, take the open source code, fork it, commercialize it and sell it and if there is a target audience of hybrid DIY people who also want a dealer, you'll have it.

There are options like MyServer, CQC, etc - they get discussed frequently at AVSForum.com which is a big DIY forum.

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

Going back to my analogy, it is kind of true.  If I want weeding services I need to use the mulch my landscaper sells.  If I decide to mulch on my own he will not provide weeding services.

{Not directly saying this as a response to @therockhr} > Its time to realize after what, 10+ years, C4 is not a DIY platform, it is a dealer based platform, period.  So when you say "lots of people would buy/sell Control4 over other solutions" that doesn't matter.  I'd buy cheaper mulch if my landscaper would weed it, but he won't, he never has nor will he at any point.  That is not his business model.

It is just tiring on the forum when people are posting how they can change the C4 business model - if it is that easy, take the open source code, fork it, commercialize it and sell it and if there is a target audience of hybrid DIY people who also want a dealer, you'll have it.

There are options like MyServer, CQC, etc - they get discussed frequently at AVSForum.com which is a big DIY forum.

i have always hated the terms "dealer/pro platform" and "diy platform". There should just be platforms and they are installed by either a pro or someone doing it themselves. An IT system admin doesnt only install Windows because its a commercial product; they install it because they feel its the right tool for the job. In some cases they may install Linux even though its open source. That day isn't anywhere close but there could be a time that professional installers use something like Home Assistant in favor of Control4, Crestron or Savant. 

That said, yeah i am tired of these arguments going down this rabbit hole even though i am one of the biggest offenders. It's not going to change and honestly over the years I understand more why.

The only thing I would like to see from Control4 is to open the driver development program up to non dealers. People pay like $100-$200 a year for this. This would give them access to a Composer Pro license to use against their 1 registered Control4 system for "development" and let them post on Control4's dealer message board (or not they could just use this board). No phone or technical support. This way when it is asked if someone can program their own system the official response is still no but if someone pushed it enough they could find out they could become a "driver developer".

 

[416to305]

8 hours ago, Jack_Ckun said:

the C4 integration in HA  is not an official integration as @Dunamivora pointed this out in the past. 

The Control4 integration was introduced in Home Assistant 0.114, and it's used by 76 active installations. Its IoT class is Local Polling.

[-defunct-]

7 minutes ago, 416to305 said:

The Control4 integration was introduced in Home Assistant 0.114, and it's used by 76 active installations. Its IoT class is Local Polling.

Thanks for the stats. Helps with the task I have of investigating the usage.

 

It is not authorized and will be shut off from access.

[therockhr]

4 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Thanks for the stats. Helps with the task I have of investigating the usage.

 

It is not authorized and will be shut off from access.

lol. you arent going to do anything.

[wnpublic]

5 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Thanks for the stats. Helps with the task I have of investigating the usage.

 

It is not authorized and will be shut off from access.

You said this in July, too, so see attached i guess.  This is another classic step in the crash cycle - swatting gnats (or promising to) while ignoring big problems.

[eggzlot]

27 minutes ago, therockhr said:

i have always hated the terms "dealer/pro platform" and "diy platform". There should just be platforms and they are installed by either a pro or someone doing it themselves.

 

you have that option if you want it   It’s not C4 - its MyServer by Allonis 

http://allonis.com/template-features/automation-software/myserver.html

• Allonis can be retained to program the system for you and / or to provide training for our Dealers and DIY'rs.

[-defunct-]

7 minutes ago, therockhr said:

lol. you arent going to do anything.

If authorized, I can have entire people banned from the ecosystem, so I wouldn't try your luck.

[-defunct-]

7 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

You said this in July, too, so see attached i guess.  This is another classic step in the crash cycle - swatting gnats (or promising to) while ignoring big problems.

In July, I didn't have the request come from above me. This time it did and I kinda laughed because I had looked into it at that point and didn't have the authority to make the changes.

That changed recently.

[therockhr]

2 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

If authorized, I can have entire people banned from the ecosystem, so I wouldn't try your luck.

If authorized, i can declare myself King of the world but I doubt ill get that authorization.

[wnpublic]

4 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

If authorized, I can have entire people banned from the ecosystem, so I wouldn't try your luck.

This is less frightening than your apparent previous authority, if authorized, to have parts of people banned from the ecosystem.  Now it's entire people?  heavens to betsy.

[Andrew luecke]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

 

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

.

The only thing I would like to see from Control4 is to open the driver development program up to non dealers. People pay like $100-$200 a year for this. This would give them access to a Composer Pro license to use against their 1 registered Control4 system for "development" and let them post on Control4's dealer message board (or not they could just use this board). No phone or technical support. This way when it is asked if someone can program their own system the official response is still no but if someone pushed it enough they could find out they could become a "driver developer".

 

Its a bit more complicated than that imho. What happens when these drivers cause issues on the controller's? Control4 needs to also provide support for affected controller's as drivers can cause issues for others.

What if the faulty driver is for lighting? Controls can't remove the driver from all controller's (safety issue), but they can't leave it either.. they just need to let the controller's break.

A lot happens in the background on control4. I suspect there would be a lot of flow on effects.

For non dealer systems it makes sense, but a managed system, not so much. There are different expectations by customers imho