Is C4 getting lapped by open source solutions?

[RyanE]

10 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Kinda lost me on this one. How is it is not cheap and easy to integrate?

Yeah, lost me on this one too, complaining about how competition makes being a dealer harder, and then also saying Control4 should open it up a bit, which would of course make being a dealer even harder...

I've heard that the "big guys" will eat our lunch for 20 years, starting way back when I worked for Phast/AMX.  I find it just as unlikely now.

That said, Control4 of course still has plenty of work to do in order to keep that from happening.

RyanE

[Singularity]

Its been a while since I have written in English. So, let me try to explain. First of all. What is the definition of "cheap"? 

If a customer wants to be able to control the lights in a couple of rooms using an "app". When using C4, they would have to get a C4 light switch, a Controller and get an electrician to your home to replace the switch. They also need somebody to program the switch and Controller. The total price of that compared to a Philips Hue light bulb set, and a bridge + sensor is most likely significant.

I don’t have any issues with the electrician and the programming expenses.

What I am worried about is that a Philips Hue motion sensor cost a fraction of the price of the C4 sensors. (Given this is a retrofit, and not a new install.)  Yes, I understand that there might be some difference in quality, but where I  live. The Hue sensor is less than 1/4 of the price of the C4 sensor. Both Zigbee. My experience is that there is a lot of potential customers that don’t understand why C4 products has to be THAT much more expensive. I don’t understand why the difference in price is so significant either. 

C4 has opened up for Z-Wave, but where are the drivers? (I understand that they cant make drivers for all products) This makes cheaper products more accessible. (Yes, and more potential problems) I do prefer quality over quantity, but I also think that we need to adjust to the market.

If a customer has installed an RGBW LED and wants to use a color wheel to adjust the colors, they have to pay $250 for the Janus driver. I don’t mind that the developer makes money on the work they do, but isn’t this something that C4 should have thought about, and made their own drivers? Isn’t this a MUST HAVE if you have RGBW?

BakPak. Insane prices compared to Ubiquiti or other vendors. The prices might be different in the US compared to the European market. Here, everything from C4 is a lot more expensive, and with a lower profit margin than other products. Yes, BakPak is easy to use. Still...

C4 KNX is more expensive and cheaper looking than other comparable brands.

So sure. If you have a $10 000 000 home. Spending $200 000 (random amount) doesn’t seem like much, but if your home is $400 000, then it might be a lot for most people. The people in the $400k homes is not in our target group? Well. They should be, because there is a lot more of them compared to the $10 000 000 segment.

I know that its not fair to compare everything dollar by dollar, but a product price reduction might make the "average Joe" more likely to spend the extra bucks on a custom install.

The biggest reason for anyone to choose C4, in a retrofit home, is the AV integration, which is absolutely outstanding. I do wish that the customer could replace some of the products themselves using Composer HE but I absolutely see that there is a lot that could go wrong there. When argue about opening up C4, I mainly talk about giving us, the dealers more options on what products to use. Especially when it comes to Z-Wave and Zigbee products.

Lets return to the customer in my first example. He might seem like a customer that most of us would not care about because of the size of the project, but who knows what that customer might want to invest when they figure out that C4 is something that they want to integrate in their entire home rather than using Google Home or Samsung Smart Things..

If I am wrong. Please do tell. I am open for any suggestions and arguments that you use when talking to your customers. I understand that it might look like I’m taking a piss at C4 and that is not my intention. Also. Keep in mind that a lot of SnapAV products are not compatible with 240v, and is not available here. 

If you dont want to discuss it in the forum, just message me. If this doesnt make sense to you at all. Ignore me. I dont think I can explain what I mean better than I have done here.

[RyanE]

9 hours ago, Singularity said:

Its been a while since I have written in English. So, let me try to explain.

...

If this doesnt make sense to you at all. Ignore me. I dont think I can explain what I mean better than I have done here. 

Thanks for the clarification.

RyanE

[-defunct-]

13 hours ago, Singularity said:

Its been a while since I have written in English. So, let me try to explain. First of all. What is the definition of "cheap"? 

If a customer wants to be able to control the lights in a couple of rooms using an "app". When using C4, they would have to get a C4 light switch, a Controller and get an electrician to your home to replace the switch. They also need somebody to program the switch and Controller. The total price of that compared to a Philips Hue light bulb set, and a bridge + sensor is most likely significant.

I don’t have any issues with the electrician and the programming expenses.

What I am worried about is that a Philips Hue motion sensor cost a fraction of the price of the C4 sensors. (Given this is a retrofit, and not a new install.)  Yes, I understand that there might be some difference in quality, but where I  live. The Hue sensor is less than 1/4 of the price of the C4 sensor. Both Zigbee. My experience is that there is a lot of potential customers that don’t understand why C4 products has to be THAT much more expensive. I don’t understand why the difference in price is so significant either. 

C4 has opened up for Z-Wave, but where are the drivers? (I understand that they cant make drivers for all products) This makes cheaper products more accessible. (Yes, and more potential problems) I do prefer quality over quantity, but I also think that we need to adjust to the market.

If a customer has installed an RGBW LED and wants to use a color wheel to adjust the colors, they have to pay $250 for the Janus driver. I don’t mind that the developer makes money on the work they do, but isn’t this something that C4 should have thought about, and made their own drivers? Isn’t this a MUST HAVE if you have RGBW?

BakPak. Insane prices compared to Ubiquiti or other vendors. The prices might be different in the US compared to the European market. Here, everything from C4 is a lot more expensive, and with a lower profit margin than other products. Yes, BakPak is easy to use. Still...

C4 KNX is more expensive and cheaper looking than other comparable brands.

So sure. If you have a $10 000 000 home. Spending $200 000 (random amount) doesn’t seem like much, but if your home is $400 000, then it might be a lot for most people. The people in the $400k homes is not in our target group? Well. They should be, because there is a lot more of them compared to the $10 000 000 segment.

I know that its not fair to compare everything dollar by dollar, but a product price reduction might make the "average Joe" more likely to spend the extra bucks on a custom install.

The biggest reason for anyone to choose C4, in a retrofit home, is the AV integration, which is absolutely outstanding. I do wish that the customer could replace some of the products themselves using Composer HE but I absolutely see that there is a lot that could go wrong there. When argue about opening up C4, I mainly talk about giving us, the dealers more options on what products to use. Especially when it comes to Z-Wave and Zigbee products.

Lets return to the customer in my first example. He might seem like a customer that most of us would not care about because of the size of the project, but who knows what that customer might want to invest when they figure out that C4 is something that they want to integrate in their entire home rather than using Google Home or Samsung Smart Things..

If I am wrong. Please do tell. I am open for any suggestions and arguments that you use when talking to your customers. I understand that it might look like I’m taking a piss at C4 and that is not my intention. Also. Keep in mind that a lot of SnapAV products are not compatible with 240v, and is not available here. 

If you dont want to discuss it in the forum, just message me. If this doesnt make sense to you at all. Ignore me. I dont think I can explain what I mean better than I have done here.

That makes sense. The only thing I'd argue is that you're comparing standalone systems vs a full integration. The value from Control4 does not come from a simple setup with a single use case (i.e. lighting control), the value comes from the full home use case. So lighting, audio, video, cameras, intercom, garage, gate, thermostat, and others when combined. That also means a standard install makes zero sense to be small. It is a better idea to use a different product to save on cost, but they don't integrate into the full ecosystem as well.

 

As for Ubiquiti, sure they are cheap, but it comes with horrible support. If you know what you are doing and can be your own support, then they are great. If not, then another brand is better.

[robbie3130]

7 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

As for Ubiquiti, sure they are cheap, but it comes with horrible support. If you know what you are doing and can be your own support, then they are great. If not, then another brand is better.

Unsure the argument here from a DIY perspective. Can an end user even get support for say, Pakedge?

[-defunct-]

17 minutes ago, robbie3130 said:

Unsure the argument here from a DIY perspective. Can an end user even get support for say, Pakedge?

From a DIY perspective, Pakedge and Control4 make zero sense.

Both are CI systems, i.e. generally for those who want something built and not building it themself.

[ejn1]

In reality,   I’m not sure any Networking IT company offers decent support for the consumer without paying for it.   So then it boils down to are there strong forum support and knowledge base.   Any free 1-800 support to the consumer seems to suck IMHO.

[Cyknight]

9 hours ago, robbie3130 said:

Unsure the argument here from a DIY perspective. Can an end user even get support for say, Pakedge?

Wouldn't know specific to Pakedge, but Cisco, Netgear and others DO offer support, in various ways. When it come to Ubiquiti, there isn't any true company support option at all.

That's what you (don't) pay for though.

This may not be a problem to many on here, but for a LOT of people (I could name many from among friends, family and even clients with this 'level' of tech-savvy) who would in fact like some smart home options and can setup Hue or similar items in it's own app just fine - because they are guided through it step by step and if things don't go well they can TALK to someone - who would be utterly lost staring at a Unifi setup. And Ubiquiti's 'tech community' is, like many others, not 'n00b friendly'. This doesn't mean they are 'dumb' people, it means they have no desire to try and understand these things - regardless of what it might save them.

That's not a knock on Ubiquiti either, they chose this setup, and have their (good) reasons, but it leaves a lot of people out of the loop. More than I think people on these forums tend to realize.

Most of you here are here BECAUSE you want understand more, and ARE willing and able taking the time and effort to do so.

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, ejn1 said:

In reality,   I’m not sure any Networking IT company offers decent support for the consumer without paying for it.

Not sure I quite agree - but going with that argument, if you're paying for it, it invalidates the lower cost argument to begin with.

[Singularity]

14 hours ago, RyanE said:

Thanks for the clarification.

RyanE

Yep, I can see that the last sentences might have come off as a bit more grumpy than intended.. Its weird how things sound better when thinking it, compared to reading it..

[Singularity]

10 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

That makes sense. The only thing I'd argue is that you're comparing standalone systems vs a full integration. The value from Control4 does not come from a simple setup with a single use case (i.e. lighting control), the value comes from the full home use case. So lighting, audio, video, cameras, intercom, garage, gate, thermostat, and others when combined. That also means a standard install makes zero sense to be small. It is a better idea to use a different product to save on cost, but they don't integrate into the full ecosystem as well.

 

As for Ubiquiti, sure they are cheap, but it comes with horrible support. If you know what you are doing and can be your own support, then they are great. If not, then another brand is better.

I agree that its not a fair comparison, but a lot of potential customers do make this comparison. Its “easy” to explain the difference in experience that the customer will have when using a custom installer, and a fully integrated system. Its easy to justify the extra costs for installing and programming. The part that is harder to explain, is why comparable products could be several hundred percent more expensive when purchasing C4. This does not apply to all C4 products, as some products are reasonably priced. I would love to offer my customers complete C4 solutions with only C4 products (when possible), but at this point.. Nah. 

I know that other integrators offer systems that are a lot more expensive than C4. So what direction is the best way to go? To focus on the wealthier, or “Average Joe”? I don’t know. Where is the best potential for growth? Are we making the entry price to a fantastic C4 experience too steep when doing a retrofit? Or should I just be better at focusing on the exellent experience of having a C4 system. I love it, my wife loves "the remote", my old man loves his system, the kids loves the sound system, the family next door loves their system.

[ejn1]

14 hours ago, Cyknight said:

Not sure I quite agree - but going with that argument, if you're paying for it, it invalidates the lower cost argument to begin with.

I was just reflecting back through all my IT purchases.... Linksys, Netgear, Mikrotik, Ubiquiti and now Ruckus and probably missed a few and tech support was pretty much useless with the exception of very basic fixes.   Ruckus is an exception but honestly, it was a huge cluster headache to get setup with their tech support and it only lasts 6 months after the purchase of a new device then you have to switch to a paid support.   But, the Ruckus folks knew their stuff but imho, its more of a paid level of enterprise support with some free help for initial startup.

I'm not saying you dont get what you pay for but when a company is dinged for lack of tech support, my first reaction was no one really provides it without paying for it either in a service contract or having a dealer support model.    So then you are left with who has the best forums,  knowledge base,  active forum participation from other SME's and company employees etc.   

[-defunct-]

13 hours ago, Singularity said:

I agree that its not a fair comparison, but a lot of potential customers do make this comparison. Its “easy” to explain the difference in experience that the customer will have when using a custom installer, and a fully integrated system. Its easy to justify the extra costs for installing and programming. The part that is harder to explain, is why comparable products could be several hundred percent more expensive when purchasing C4. This does not apply to all C4 products, as some products are reasonably priced. I would love to offer my customers complete C4 solutions with only C4 products (when possible), but at this point.. Nah. 

I know that other integrators offer systems that are a lot more expensive than C4. So what direction is the best way to go? To focus on the wealthier, or “Average Joe”? I don’t know. Where is the best potential for growth? Are we making the entry price to a fantastic C4 experience too steep when doing a retrofit? Or should I just be better at focusing on the exellent experience of having a C4 system. I love it, my wife loves "the remote", my old man loves his system, the kids loves the sound system, the family next door loves their system.

At least what I have seen and heard, the target demographic is not the 'average Joe' as much as many 'average Joes' would like.

[Singularity]

15 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

At least what I have seen and heard, the target demographic is not the 'average Joe' as much as many 'average Joes' would like.

You know. That is actually true. I know that it is a premium product. Still, I just want as many people as possible to experience it. Focusing too much on price doesnt really help anybody. I might have to re-think who I am targeting.

I am excited to see what happens when C4 decides to upgrade the controllers. How much more will they allow to be integrated? What new brands becomes fully integrated?

[BXTR]

On 11/21/2020 at 5:08 AM, Singularity said:

You know. That is actually true. I know that it is a premium product. Still, I just want as many people as possible to experience it. Focusing too much on price doesnt really help anybody. I might have to re-think who I am targeting.

I am excited to see what happens when C4 decides to upgrade the controllers. How much more will they allow to be integrated? What new brands becomes fully integrated?

Appealing to as many people in terms of price makes it a commodity, the experience compared to where C4 is now would be sub par

In my experience, target C4 users want reliability and someone to reach out to when they either have an issue and want to upgrade or add on something 

[Sherwin]

Yo. As a lower end customer to the brand that had to beg, borrow and almost steal, i couldnt be happier with the system. A gradual progression in buying gear allowed me to get a fully automated home. My wife hated me for wasting so much money in the beginning but now cant live without it and wants it in the new build. I have played with zwave stuff and the lag killed me. Sonoff is sub par and now playing with Shelly devices, I'd say entry level customers could milk it and make a complete system of it all by linking Shelly lighting. I have learnt that C4 allows alot of the hardware to move with the OS upgrades, how many other brands for DIY are now obsolete in that same time frame? I havent had a single C4 device failure. When its a home it must just work, cant exactly get the wife to now worry about 2 kids and a 3rd being a DIY home. I do industrial automation and you think the problem is only on home automation? Customers cry all the time there too. As i say buy what works and dont buy something just because of the price. And for those that cant search the internet shouldnt be DIYing anything anyways. Only gripe is with the touch screens "HMIs", wish they were cheaper. I can get way more powerfull industrial panels for less than the price of the C4 ones, yes i know they wouldnt work on C4 but thats my only sore point. In my opinion everyone is a C4 customer - they just need to experience it and save up by spending less on meat and booze, especially as we spend more time in our homes now. 

[ejn1]

14 minutes ago, Sherwin said:

Yo. As a lower end customer to the brand that had to beg, borrow and almost steal, i couldnt be happier with the system. A gradual progression in buying gear allowed me to get a fully automated home. My wife hated me for wasting so much money in the beginning but now cant live without it and wants it in the new build. I have played with zwave stuff and the lag killed me. Sonoff is sub par and now playing with Shelly devices, I'd say entry level customers could milk it and make a complete system of it all by linking Shelly lighting. I have learnt that C4 allows alot of the hardware to move with the OS upgrades, how many other brands for DIY are now obsolete in that same time frame? I havent had a single C4 device failure. When its a home it must just work, cant exactly get the wife to now worry about 2 kids and a 3rd being a DIY home. I do industrial automation and you think the problem is only on home automation? Customers cry all the time there too. As i say buy what works and dont buy something just because of the price. And for those that cant search the internet shouldnt be DIYing anything anyways. Only gripe is with the touch screens "HMIs", wish they were cheaper. I can get way more powerfull industrial panels for less than the price of the C4 ones, yes i know they wouldnt work on C4 but thats my only sore point. In my opinion everyone is a C4 customer - they just need to experience it and save up by spending less on meat and booze, especially as we spend more time in our homes now. 

agree,  and I think C4 wants all customer types also as longs as it aligns with their Dealer business model...  Dealers, based on their segmentation preferences may not, but C4 wants anyone with a wallet and heartbeat as a customer is my view.

[-defunct-]

3 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

agree,  and I think C4 wants all customer types also as longs as it aligns with their Dealer business model...  Dealers, based on their segmentation preferences may not, but C4 wants anyone with a wallet and heartbeat as a customer is my view.

Dealers pick the customers. Control4 only wants Dealers to sell products regardless of who the customer is.

[ejn1]

15 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Dealers pick the customers. Control4 only wants Dealers to sell products regardless of who the customer is.

I think we are saying the same thing although I would think most customers are the one making the initial contact with the dealer versus opposite...  I would be curious how many customers call a dealer already wanting C4 versus one that calls a dealer and states what they are looking for "brand agnostic" and purchases based on dealer recommendation?   I would think the former is the majority of the cases but don't know.

[-defunct-]

1 minute ago, ejn1 said:

I think we are saying the same thing although I would think most customers are the one making the initial contact with the dealer versus opposite...  I would be curious how many customers call a dealer already wanting C4 versus one that calls a dealer and states what they are looking for "brand agnostic" and purchases based on dealer recommendation?   I would think the former is the majority of the cases but don't know.

I believe you are correct for the current market. Homeowners are looking for Control4 and dealers are prioritizing certain jobs.

[zaphod]

3 hours ago, Sherwin said:

Yo. As a lower end customer to the brand that had to beg, borrow and almost steal, i couldnt be happier with the system. A gradual progression in buying gear allowed me to get a fully automated home. My wife hated me for wasting so much money in the beginning but now cant live without it and wants it in the new build. I have played with zwave stuff and the lag killed me. Sonoff is sub par and now playing with Shelly devices, I'd say entry level customers could milk it and make a complete system of it all by linking Shelly lighting. I have learnt that C4 allows alot of the hardware to move with the OS upgrades, how many other brands for DIY are now obsolete in that same time frame? I havent had a single C4 device failure. When its a home it must just work, cant exactly get the wife to now worry about 2 kids and a 3rd being a DIY home. I do industrial automation and you think the problem is only on home automation? Customers cry all the time there too. As i say buy what works and dont buy something just because of the price. And for those that cant search the internet shouldnt be DIYing anything anyways. Only gripe is with the touch screens "HMIs", wish they were cheaper. I can get way more powerfull industrial panels for less than the price of the C4 ones, yes i know they wouldnt work on C4 but thats my only sore point. In my opinion everyone is a C4 customer - they just need to experience it and save up by spending less on meat and booze, especially as we spend more time in our homes now. 

You make some really good points, and I am a big C4 proponent, but just be aware that C4 stuff becomes obsolete on a regular basis as well.  Stuff like controllers, remotes and touch screens often become obsolete in about a decade.  So if you want to stay current you will have to spend at least a few thousand rebuying that stuff each decade.

Lighting is different and I still have dozens of dimmers and keypads from ~2007 that work fine and were upgraded from embernet. That has not gone obsolete at all.

[-defunct-]

21 minutes ago, zaphod said:

You make some really good points, and I am a big C4 proponent, but just be aware that C4 stuff becomes obsolete on a regular basis as well.  Stuff like controllers, remotes and touch screens often become obsolete in about a decade.  So if you want to stay current you will have to spend at least a few thousand rebuying that stuff each decade.

Lighting is different and I still have dozens of dimmers and keypads from ~2007 that work fine and were upgraded from embernet. That has not gone obsolete at all.

Agree with you, but on some of the items I'd say every five years and maybe every two years for software versions.

[wnpublic]

On 11/26/2020 at 9:06 AM, Dunamivora said:

 Homeowners are looking for Control4

That's nonsense.  There's not some vast awareness of C4 out there. Homeowners are looking for home automation, and the dealer they call sells them what they are the dealer for.  Sometimes C4, sometimes Elan, etc. etc.

[backball]

On 11/13/2020 at 4:26 AM, wnpublic said:

Thanks for the thoughtful input, esp. RyanE's point about being your own dealer, it makes a lot of sense, and explains why the C4 model works for so many and is popular.

More globally, point wasn't to start a fight, so I don't see the utility of pushing back point by point, especially where it's based on what someone thinks they know, rather than having actually tried out and compared an open-source alternative.

So I'll leave it at this: for less than $100 (free if you have an old computer sitting around) and about an hour's work, you can set up a shadow Home Assistant installation.  It will control all of your C4 lights and switches (there's an integration that takes 30 seconds to install by clicking a UI button), and connect with a lot of other things you probably already have (like your Google or outlook calendar, your mobile device for geofencing, your MyQ (for free), and just about every other web-addressable device or service in your life). 

Then you can decide for yourself whether you are perfectly satisfied that you: paid to have touchscreens on your walls that are, inter alia, totally ignorant of user presence, can't show a simple calendar integration with everybody's schedule, and are only crudely customizable; have a mobile app that insists on "pulling project properties" for 5 seconds every time you open it; won't let you integrate with publicly available web services like Purple Air to display, and fire events off of their data; integrate for free with your other household devices like roombas or your own networking equipment; and so on.

I'm building up a Home Assistant instance and love it. Long time C4 user but the dependency on a dealer doesn't work for me - anymore. I love the C4 matrix amp and have full control over it from HA - thanks to another user who built a custom integration for it.

You made the point "It will control all of your C4 lights and switches (there's an integration that takes 30 seconds to install by clicking a UI button)". Are you talking about the official C4 integration on home assistant (i.e. https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/control4/)?

[Jack_Ckun]

1 hour ago, backball said:

I'm building up a Home Assistant instance and love it. Long time C4 user but the dependency on a dealer doesn't work for me - anymore. I love the C4 matrix amp and have full control over it from HA - thanks to another user who built a custom integration for it.

You made the point "It will control all of your C4 lights and switches (there's an integration that takes 30 seconds to install by clicking a UI button)". Are you talking about the official C4 integration on home assistant (i.e. https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/control4/)?

the C4 integration in HA  is not an official integration as @Dunamivora pointed this out in the past.