Is C4 getting lapped by open source solutions?

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, zaphod said:

There is certainly some overlap and a lot of DIYers do use Control4, some just using ComposerHE and others who use the Jailbreak.  Hence the popularity of the C4DIY discord channel, where even some of the folks in this thread contribute.

if you look at those in that Discord channel + those here I am still certain that population is in the VAST minority.

[-defunct-]

3 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

if you look at those in that Discord channel + those here I am still certain that population is in the VAST minority.

Yep. I recall the community being about 200-300 vs the Control4 customer base being 400k+, so .05% of users are in there.

[South Africa C4 user]

22 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

Its a bit more complicated than that imho. What happens when these drivers cause issues on the controller's? Control4 needs to also provide support for affected controller's as drivers can cause issues for others.

What if the faulty driver is for lighting? Controls can't remove the driver from all controller's (safety issue), but they can't leave it either.. they just need to let the controller's break.

A lot happens in the background on control4. I suspect there would be a lot of flow on effects.

For non dealer systems it makes sense, but a managed system, not so much. There are different expectations by customers imho

While I fully appreciate Control4’s right to limit us end users to HE, I am not sure that this argument holds water.  Sure, if I write a driver for my own use, I may crash my controller… but trust me, I can also crash my controller using HE (and stop anything from working as my CPU goes wild).  So limiting a user to Pro for their own system only changes nothing.  If they write a crumby driver, you would expect the next dealer to test it before using it on another system.

Equally, I have had drivers from professional driver developers (the good ones - and I’d include you guys in that category) where the driver has totally hung my system…

[South Africa C4 user]

23 hours ago, Dunamivora said:

If authorized, I can have entire people banned from the ecosystem, so I wouldn't try your luck.

I thought long and hard before commenting on this as I know some won’t appreciate what I have to say.  Honestly, I love C4 and honestly, this sort of comment from a C4 employee makes me cringe.  I have no idea what customer service is like in the states, but if one of my employees made a comment like this on a public forum, I would de-authorise him from making any public comments with regard to my brand.  In fact, a comment like this would be a dismissible offence at our company as it would be in breach of our social media policy.

Please don’t get me wrong.  That does not mean that I would never cancel someones contract… I would (and have) under certain circumstances.  However, I would not go around making public threats about doing it, I would simply do it IF the circumstances warranted it.

[South Africa C4 user]

18 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

 Also dealers in composer pro can limit certain programming and make it inaccessible in HE. 

 

I don’t believe this is true.  Based on reading the HE manual (which interestingly includes some Pro bits and pieces), changing programming between dealer and customer makes the programming inaccessible in When/Then but not in HE.

[-defunct-]

12 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said:

I thought long and hard before commenting on this as I know some won’t appreciate what I have to say.  Honestly, I love C4 and honestly, this sort of comment from a C4 employee makes me cringe.  I have no idea what customer service is like in the states, but if one of my employees made a comment like this on a public forum, I would de-authorise him from making any public comments with regard to my brand.  In fact, a comment like this would be a dismissible offence at our company as it would be in breach of our social media policy.

Please don’t get me wrong.  That does not mean that I would never cancel someones contract… I would (and have) under certain circumstances.  However, I would not go around making public threats about doing it, I would simply do it IF the circumstances warranted it.

That wasn't a threat, it was a warning.

It's good to know what kind of employer you would be. Thankfully, those above me understand the difference between a warning and a threat and would also be the ones determining if I need to ensure somebody is no longer allowed in the ecosystem as an installer or a user.

[South Africa C4 user]

3 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

That wasn't a threat, it was a warning.

It's good to know what kind of employer you would be. Thankfully, those above me understand the difference between a warning and a threat and would also be the ones determining if I need to ensure somebody is no longer allowed in the ecosystem as an installer or a user.

Threats are used when parents feel out of control. Warnings are used by parents who feel calm and in control. Threats are often empty words. Warnings are followed up by actions.

[-defunct-]

1 minute ago, South Africa C4 user said:

Threats are used when parents feel out of control. Warnings are used by parents who feel calm and in control. Threats are often empty words. Warnings are followed up by actions.

Didn't expect a random parenting discussion, but okay.

 

Based on the context, it was a warning and clarification of what will be done since the response to my comment about severing the functionality of the integration was that I wasn't going to do anything.

Hoping nothing happens and integration remains is pushing luck.

[zaphod]

18 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

No....

Can't install drivers, can't mess with bindings/connections. Also dealers in composer pro can limit certain programming and make it inaccessible in HE. Also, I don't recall if it allows property access either.

I'd assume that there is no terminal access on HE either.

There are huge differences...

There used to be terminal access to anyone with an ssh client and the password was t0tallykn0wab1e!  But I believe that was closed down with OS3.

[wnpublic]

55 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

That wasn't a threat, it was a warning.

It's good to know what kind of employer you would be. Thankfully, those above me understand the difference between a warning and a threat and would also be the ones determining if I need to ensure somebody is no longer allowed in the ecosystem as an installer or a user.

Why don't you share the literal words of your post with them and verify your assumption, or pm me their email address so i can do it?  We can see whether you're right. It wouldn't fly in my shop.

[Andrew luecke]

 

49 minutes ago, zaphod said:

There used to be terminal access to anyone with an ssh client and the password was t0tallykn0wab1e!  But I believe that was closed down with OS3.

Yep. But it's one of the things that they closed for obvious reasons. Doesn't apply to old firmware, but definitely applies to new firmware. The security change was no surprise to anyone (particularly as OS3 has now stabilised, and Control4 really seems to be cleaning up any loose ends.. Like the ability to hide and modify buttons)

 

1 hour ago, South Africa C4 user said:

I don’t believe this is true.  Based on reading the HE manual (which interestingly includes some Pro bits and pieces), changing programming between dealer and customer makes the programming inaccessible in When/Then but not in HE.

It has been ages since I've used HE, so you could be right (it would be good to get confirmation). It definitely changes it in WHEN>Then, but I could be wrong about HE (but there definitely should be a mechanism to block access in HE too, so I might mention it to the development team to ensure there is).

Some scenario's where this would be used, would be: 

• We had a customer whose system kept the pool clean, topped up, etc. There is no reason for anyone to be changing that logic
• Door access logic
• motion sensing lights.  

In a commercial job, it can be even more important to protect some programming (not all of it). Mechanisms like this are pretty standard for many automation systems.. 

But because connections and bindings and such are blocked anyway, people generally also can't easily break lighting, and when the system does break, it should be possible to assume it's network or end-device related when getting the phone call on a Friday evening.

 

[-defunct-]

26 minutes ago, wnpublic said:

Why don't you share the literal words of your post with them and verify your assumption, or pm me their email address so i can do it?  We can see whether you're right. It wouldn't fly in my shop.

1) I'm not going to blow an alias.

2) I don't trust you.

3) It seems my comment was wholly misinterpreted as wanting to ban a user, not the case, so maybe my example was bad. That was more or less just stating that I'm not a pushover/lightweight when it comes to impacting change within the system. I actually enjoy the whole hacker scenario and would only close things through software innovation rather than restricting people by other means. The hacks show where security is lacking.

[wnpublic]

20 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

1) I'm not going to blow an alias.

2) I don't trust you.

3) It seems my comment was wholly misinterpreted as wanting to ban a user, not the case, so maybe my example was bad. That was more or less just stating that I'm not a pushover/lightweight when it comes to impacting change within the system. I actually enjoy the whole hacker scenario and would only close things through software innovation rather than restricting people by other means. The hacks show where security is lacking.

It's ok, I'll take care of it myself.

[Andrew luecke]

4 hours ago, South Africa C4 user said:

While I fully appreciate Control4’s right to limit us end users to HE, I am not sure that this argument holds water.  Sure, if I write a driver for my own use, I may crash my controller… but trust me, I can also crash my controller using HE (and stop anything from working as my CPU goes wild).  So limiting a user to Pro for their own system only changes nothing.  If they write a crumby driver, you would expect the next dealer to test it before using it on another system.

Equally, I have had drivers from professional driver developers (the good ones - and I’d include you guys in that category) where the driver has totally hung my system…

So I'm not sure what I'm allowed to discuss, but Control4 does a great job of collaborating with developers if there is a suspected driver issue (their support team are legends). It's rare ( but not impossible) an issue happens where intervention is required. There's also a lot of risk management stuff happening in the background.  

In my opinion, opening up Composer Pro would potentially increase sales of a lot of drivers, but at the cost of lower quality of support  due to the need to support more untrained users who may even lack basic network skills (making it less suitable for high end installs). The support structure would require modification too. 

Also, you are correct about HE Programming (messaged someone at Snap). Programming will only be locked for When > Then. That being said though, Bindings, connections, properties, etc are the bigger problem anyway imho (the customers I came across as an installer at a different company where access to programming would be an issue, only used When>then anyway). I'll probably make the suggestion to C4 about this (there might be other reasons it's done this way though). 

At the end of the day, we can all have different beliefs, but it's my belief that there are a lot of risks changing the business model. There are benefits, but disadvantages too. But, Control4 is doing well at the moment (so it doesn't make sense for them to change anyway)

In regards to ease of driver development though, developing simple IR/RS232 drivers is relatively fast. But Good quality two way drivers, definitely aren't. Some people here for instance may have used my PowerTools driver I developed as a hobby before my current job. It actually took months to develop (and consumed ALL of my free time during that period).

[South Africa C4 user]

7 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

So I need to be careful what I discuss, but Control4 does a great job of collaborating with developers if there is a suspected driver issue (their support team are legends). It's rare,( but not impossible) an issue happens where intervention is required. There's also a lot of risk management stuff happening in the background.  

In my opinion, opening up Composer Pro would potentially increase sales of a lot of drivers, but at the cost of lower quality of support  due to the need to support more untrained users who may even lack basic network skills (making it less suitable for high end installs). The support structure would require modification too. 

Also, you are correct about HE Programming (messaged someone at Snap). Programming will only be locked for When > Then. That being said though, Bindings, connections, properties, etc are the bigger problem anyway imho (the customers I came across as an installer at a different company where access to programming would be an issue, only used When>then anyway). I'll probably make the suggestion to C4 about this (there might be other reasons it's done this way though). 

At the end of the day, we can all have different beliefs, but it's my belief that there are a lot of risks changing the business model. There are benefits, but disadvantages too. But, Control4 is doing well at the moment (so it doesn't make sense for them to change anyway)

In regards to ease of driver development though, developing simple IR/RS232 drivers is relatively fast. But Good quality two way drivers, definitely aren't. Some people here for instance may have used my PowerTools driver I developed as a hobby before my current job. It actually took months to develop (and consumed ALL of my free time during that period).

I don’t disagree with anything you say in this post!  I also respect C4s stance in this regard and would probably make the same decision if I was running C4 (for exactly the reasons you mention).  I also think that C4 (via HE) gives more access to the DIY community than any of its competitors.

Equally, I fully support the idea of superuser access (Pro and Driver writing access) while knowing it is unlikely to ever become a reality and is thus no more than popcorn fodder for threads like this one.

Edited March 19, 2022 by South Africa C4 user

[tacos]

On 3/18/2022 at 2:56 PM, eggzlot said:

if you look at those in that Discord channel + those here I am still certain that population is in the VAST minority.

Link to channel?

[eggzlot]

2 hours ago, tacos said:

Link to channel?

I’m too old to be on discord.  No clue.  I only participate here, AVS and Reddit 

[South Africa C4 user]

1 hour ago, eggzlot said:

I’m too old to be on discord.  No clue.  I only participate here, AVS and Reddit 

And I’m too old to know what discord is!

[zaphod]

21 hours ago, tacos said:

Link to channel?

I think this is the one. 

 

I am not really into Discord either, but the advantage of something like Discord is that you can have a real time chat with someone and try to fix issues immediately rather than posting to this forum and waiting a while until someone responds.

[DanITman]

21 hours ago, eggzlot said:

I’m too old to be on discord.  No clue.  I only participate here, AVS and Reddit 

  If you use Slack you can use Discord.  Its basically a copy of Slack but used for specific topics.  It looks exactly like Slack.  Just another chat platform.

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, DanITman said:

  If you use Slack you can use Discord.  Its basically a copy of Slack but used for specific topics.  It looks exactly like Slack.  Just another chat platform.

I use Teams for work, and I am mostly joking, I am sure I can figure it out.  Do I want to or need to is another manner?  I guess in 8+ years of C4 ownership I've had a mini crisis 1-2x where I thought immediate ASAP attention was needed.  So posting here and "waiting" for a response is usually sufficient.  I also like the ability to search here, as most of the time my question was likely already answered

I don't mind other avenues if it works for people, but I am on here, AVS and Reddit and for my free time, its plenty.  

[DanITman]

20 hours ago, eggzlot said:

I use Teams for work, and I am mostly joking, I am sure I can figure it out.  Do I want to or need to is another manner?  I guess in 8+ years of C4 ownership I've had a mini crisis 1-2x where I thought immediate ASAP attention was needed.  So posting here and "waiting" for a response is usually sufficient.  I also like the ability to search here, as most of the time my question was likely already answered

I don't mind other avenues if it works for people, but I am on here, AVS and Reddit and for my free time, its plenty.  

I don't like the private nature of Discord.  I wish you could see the search results in google or find them publicly.  The search is ok but its great for just chatting or working through problems.  To each their own. 

[CTMatthew]

On 3/18/2022 at 12:44 PM, Control4Savant said:

I dont know how you could as a fellow someone profiting from selling, installing and servicing these products possibly feel more frustrated than someone who spends $10ks+ or more of their own money into trusting in a brand and professional that is certainly not easy to get out of.  You CLIENTS are your livelihood. Not Control4 or any other brand. Each should be appropriately taken care of with that in mind. Again, its the sole reason I stopped spec’ing C4 for new jobs. My clients experiences are most important. 

You've either misread my comment or are looking for a reason to be pissy (this is a forum, so I assume the latter). I'm comparing my experience as a dealer to strangers on an internet forum, NOT to my clients. My clients ARE my business and success is the sum total of their satisfaction, just as my woes are the sum total of their dissatisfaction. Often times I find myself more genuinely frustrated or upset over matters of system performance than my clients. This is because they trust me to find a solution when I don't have as much trust in the manufacturer whose products are at issue. 

[milehighguy]

On 3/18/2022 at 9:11 AM, therockhr said:

3 - people who have the cash but dont want to pay someone to do something they have an interest in and want to do themselves but they also dont want to cobble together a system with different parts that may just kind of work or takes forever to learn and change. - this is the audience for a more polished do it yourself system that currently doesnt exist.

A few tweaks to the UX (especially for programming - good lord) and C4 would be a near perfect platform for my needs. The extra money over a full DIY HA system got me: a purpose-built appliance, quality first party hardware, someone to handle the grunt work of the initial setup and ensure complex integrations (eg with security system) work, and free reign to tinker with whatever I want (thanks to a fantastic one-click jailbreak tool). 

Seems like a good value prop

[wnpublic]

https://investors.snapone.com/news-releases/news-release-details/snap-one-reports-fiscal-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-2021

Well - net loss of $36.5M, up $11M from last year.  a near $100M swing in net cash flow (from $64M at end of 2020 to -$30M now), and half the cash on hand from last year.  Bunch of non-GAAP numbers to pretty it up of course.  Guess I was wrong, everything is great.