Is C4 getting lapped by open source solutions?

[Andrew luecke]

Also, theres a lot more with the architecture that changes things. With the current design, installers can safely assume customers haven't modified the programming (but they can explicitly open it to customers allow them to do so). So for safety, this makes things.

If anyone can get composer pro, it makes support more difficult for installers. Totally different target market. 

There's a lot of good systems on the market at the moment each with their own niche. Control4 has definitely defined their own niche (and it seems to be working really well for them).

[therockhr]

14 minutes ago, Andrew luecke said:

Its a bit more complicated than that imho. What happens when these drivers cause issues on the controller's? Control4 needs to also provide support for affected controller's as drivers can cause issues for others.

What if the faulty driver is for lighting? Controls can't remove the driver from all controller's (safety issue), but they can't leave it either.. they just need to let the controller's break.

A lot happens in the background on control4. I suspect there would be a lot of flow on effects.

For non dealer systems it makes sense, but a managed system, not so much. There are different expectations by customers imho

It’s not that complicated Control4 just doesn’t want to make their dealers upset. That’s the only reason.  Anything else is just trying to find a reason not to. I would rather people just be honest instead of saying “what happens if a user burns their house down” or something like that. 
 

It would be safer in the long run for them if they just provided this route but instead people will just keep cracking pro. 

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, Andrew luecke said:

Also, theres a lot more with the architecture that changes things. With the current design, installers can safely assume customers haven't modified the programming (but they can explicitly open it to customers allow them to do so). So for safety, this makes things.

If anyone can get composer pro, it makes support more difficult for installers. Totally different target market. 

There's a lot of good systems on the market at the moment each with their own niche. Control4 has definitely defined their own niche (and it seems to be working really well for them).

All the bad things you say customers can do, they can do with Composer HE just as easily as they can Composer Pro.

[Topspin14m]

I haven't used HA, so I can't comment on it, but I set up a very complicated complete SmartThings setup in my last home. Replaced every light switch, had all the TVs hooked up, had all the macros and automations set, Raspberry Pi HomeKit integration, Alexa, Sonos, LIFX bulbs, cameras, video doorbells, smart locks.  Pretty much the full works.  I spent a lot of time tinkering with it and fixing it when things broke or got disconnected from the Z Wave network (which was often).  That said, I had fun with it, but it was time consuming and really a hobby in and of itself.

Beyond that though, what you learn if you are really sinking a lot of money into this is that Control4 adds value to your home.  When I went to sell the house, it was initially a big PITA to have a DIY system.  The new owners couldn't figure it out even though I left instructions I spent a lot of time creating, and I kept getting question after question from the brokers.  I LITERALLY HAD become the dealer.   Eventually I had to wipe my hands of it because it was taking up a lot of my time.  Now compare that to Control4--If I sell my house, I'll leave my dealer's business card on the island...

[Andrew luecke]

3 hours ago, therockhr said:

All the bad things you say customers can do, they can do with Composer HE just as easily as they can Composer Pro.

No....

Can't install drivers, can't mess with bindings/connections. Also dealers in composer pro can limit certain programming and make it inaccessible in HE. Also, I don't recall if it allows property access either.

I'd assume that there is no terminal access on HE either.

There are huge differences... 

 

[backball]

14 hours ago, wnpublic said:

Yep, it'll get all your lights.  As you've learned, though - everything else requires some other approach.  Yeah, it's not "official" from the C4 side, but it's definitely the "official" one from the HA side....

Ok great. I have yet to get some love from my dealer to get to OS3.0+ before I can enjoy this. For sure I reckon that C4 wouldn't be actively developing this as there's a group of users looking for that extra flexibility without the external dependency. And yes, I'd agree it's two systems serving very different target markets.

[Andrew luecke]

11 hours ago, therockhr said:

It’s not that complicated Control4 just doesn’t want to make their dealers upset. That’s the only reason.  Anything else is just trying to find a reason not to. I would rather people just be honest instead of saying “what happens if a user burns their house down” or something like that. 

If you want to pretend to be a DriverWorks developer today instead of security expert or control4 installer, that's your own choice... 

5 hours ago, backball said:

Ok great. I have yet to get some love from my dealer to get to OS3.0+ before I can enjoy this. For sure I reckon that C4 wouldn't be actively developing this as there's a group of users looking for that extra flexibility without the external dependency. And yes, I'd agree it's two systems serving very different target markets.

You'll realistically need to be operating EA controllers for OS3.0+, and T3/T4 touchscreens (definitely worth checking). OS3.X at this point is a huge upgrade, and well worth it (both from the customer side, and from the installer side).  

If you are using older touchscreens and do want to upgrade, definitely go T4 (even if you can get the T3's cheap, the upgrade to T4 from a long term support view is definitely worth it, especially because it uses a newer backend, which was designed to be a lot more upgradeable in the future).

 

 

 

[Andrew luecke]

7 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

I haven't used HA, so I can't comment on it, but I set up a very complicated complete SmartThings setup in my last home. Replaced every light switch, had all the TVs hooked up, had all the macros and automations set, Raspberry Pi HomeKit integration, Alexa, Sonos, LIFX bulbs, cameras, video doorbells, smart locks.  Pretty much the full works.  I spent a lot of time tinkering with it and fixing it when things broke or got disconnected from the Z Wave network (which was often).  That said, I had fun with it, but it was time consuming and really a hobby in and of itself.

Beyond that though, what you learn if you are really sinking a lot of money into this is that Control4 adds value to your home.  When I went to sell the house, it was initially a big PITA to have a DIY system.  The new owners couldn't figure it out even though I left instructions I spent a lot of time creating, and I kept getting question after question from the brokers.  I LITERALLY HAD become the dealer.   Eventually I had to wipe my hands of it because it was taking up a lot of my time.  Now compare that to Control4--If I sell my house, I'll leave my dealer's business card on the island...

Same thing happens to a lot of people with NAS units or servers. Lots of us build our own NAS's or to save money. Eventually though, something goes wrong and many of us end up simply buying a commercial NAS anyway. On Synology, when there is an issue (I've even seen a case where the RAID had totally crashed), they fixed it. Even professionals like Linus from Linus Tech Tips have fallen into this trap. I have, and other mates have too (my mate was using BTRFS, and then a critical flaw was discovered in it, which ended up affecting him)

The success of many open source projects these days often relies upon commercial backing / sponsorship and is only as good as the developers working on it. The availability of source code, doesn't guarantee that anyone will work on it (DevFS). The guarantee by community members that they will work on something, doesn't guarantee that the patches they produce will be suitable for inclusion (Reiser4). I also had 2 projects fail for the same reason (and plenty more I assisted with).  The majority of Linux Kernel patches these days, is actually by large companies. Control4 has a lot of good developers, and huge development partner network too, so it's reasonable to assume they won't fail anytime soon

[msgreenf]

Look at Log4J. A perfectly good open source project...

[therockhr]

2 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Look at Log4J. A perfectly good open source project...

lol. i agree. you should throw out any tech you have with open source code.

you all arent serious people.

[therockhr]

9 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

No....

Can't install drivers, can't mess with bindings/connections. Also dealers in composer pro can limit certain programming and make it inaccessible in HE. Also, I don't recall if it allows property access either.

I'd assume that there is no terminal access on HE either.

There are huge differences... 

 

i could program my fireplace to come on in the middle of the night and not ever turn off in composer he. the only reason pro isnt available to non dealers is because Control4 doesnt want to make them mad. just be honest about it. its no big deal. its a perfectly rational business decision by them. I wonder say they wouldnt lose any worthwhile dealers but im sure they know them better than i do.

[msgreenf]

2 minutes ago, therockhr said:

lol. i agree. you should throw out any tech you have with open source code.

you all arent serious people.

Yup. I'm pretty unserious and don't understand enterprise IT and security. 

 

99% of the world isn't educated on open source and the risks and values of it. 

I think OSS is great but you just have to understand what you are getting..

My parents could never coble together an OSS solution. And that's the case for a majority of people. 

[therockhr]

4 hours ago, Andrew luecke said:

If you want to pretend to be a DriverWorks developer today instead of security expert or control4 installer, that's your own choice... 

i wouldnt dare try to impersonate the prestige of any of those things.

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, msgreenf said:

Yup. I'm pretty unserious and don't understand enterprise IT and security. 

 

99% of the world isn't educated on open source and the risks and values of it. 

I think OSS is great but you just have to understand what you are getting..

My parents could never coble together an OSS solution. And that's the case for a majority of people. 

so what was the log4j comment for? if you want to troll then troll. dont come back with a serious answer when thats what you should have done the first time.

[wnpublic]

2 hours ago, msgreenf said:

Look at Log4J. A perfectly good open source project...

Nice lashing out.  Someone is, as the kids say, b$%%hurt.

[CTMatthew]

18 hours ago, therockhr said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

Yep, because that's exactly how hundreds of millions of Android users encounter and live with those products.   Whatever you can do with in the Android space that you can't do in the Apple space is irrelevant when the majority of the user base will only ever experience a fully finished, tested, and supported product.

The point we're all trying to get across to you is that there are distinct and (mostly) non-overlapping audiences for these types solutions. Neither one is ever likely to overtake the other. The most frustrated Control4 client in the world would still probably never embrace an open source version and vice versa. The permeability between the two types of experiences just isn't significant enough to allow much influence. 

After this many pages of goofy arguments I'm not sure how many more ways this can be communicated.  

[LollerAgent]

Yawn.  All was well until someone here decided to revive a 2yr old thread.

[-defunct-]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

i could program my fireplace to come on in the middle of the night and not ever turn off in composer he. the only reason pro isnt available to non dealers is because Control4 doesnt want to make them mad. just be honest about it. its no big deal. its a perfectly rational business decision by them. I wonder say they wouldnt lose any worthwhile dealers but im sure they know them better than i do.

The reasoning is not because it will make the dealers mad. It's literally because the dealer model is considered a better solution than DIY.

It's 1000 times easier supporting individuals that are paid to install the solution than the random DIY hobbyist.

HE usage is extremely low. It's not something used by more than a handful of customers.

[-defunct-]

Open source is valuable where it is. Not all open source is secure, but that's why OSRBs exist and open source needs continually audited for vulns.

Control4 would not exist without opensource services and utlities, but the magic happens in non-open source code.

[therockhr]

16 minutes ago, CTMatthew said:

The point we're all trying to get across to you is that there are distinct and (mostly) non-overlapping audiences for these types solutions. Neither one is ever likely to overtake the other. The most frustrated Control4 client in the world would still probably never embrace an open source version and vice versa. The permeability between the two types of experiences just isn't significant enough to allow much influence. 

After this many pages of goofy arguments I'm not sure how many more ways this can be communicated.  

Because you are too stuck in your own world to understand that just because that is how it is now, it may not be that way. That was the point I made.

I'll try to say it again; are the open source or roll your own home automation solutions on par with the overall features of Control4 or others? Not at all, especially until one of those solutions figures out a way to easily bring in a hard button remote. Which may never come. But, there could be a time when one of these projects gets some backing or develops some features that makes them stand out from the commercial solutions, so much so that even pro installers decide to implement them because of the features they have. Until recently lots of installers used to install XBMC because it had lots of features that were unavailable in commercial players at the time (its still a nice system but most people are good with just your standard Roku or AppleTv now).

You keep saying "these clients would never embrace an open source version". How would they even know what kind of software is in the backend? If the solution you provided had all the features they wanted, they would not care what it runs on it. If you are a good installer, the solution almost shouldnt matter (there are obviously limits to this as you cant make chicken salad out of chicken **** so i wouldnt expect an installer to use a system that didnt have all the needed features).

There are more than 2 audiences for home automation;

1 - the people who dont care about how the technology works. They have the money to let someone do it for them. They hire someone to do it and trust them to pick the product that will fit their needs. - This is the audience for a dealer installed system

2 - people who do care about technology and what to do everything themselves. while they may have the time and the knowledge, they either dont have the cash or do have the cash but want a solution they can build from scratch and customize beyond what some of the commercial products may allow. they are good with cobbling together and tinkering a system. they dont mind if the system isnt 100% reliable as tinkering and experimentation is more the end goal - this is the audience for the current roll your own or open source solutions

3 - people who have the cash but dont want to pay someone to do something they have an interest in and want to do themselves but they also dont want to cobble together a system with different parts that may just kind of work or takes forever to learn and change. - this is the audience for a more polished do it yourself system that currently doesnt exist.

[-defunct-]

I agree with your categories of those interested in home automation.

Control4 targets and builds around #1. #2 and #3 just get upset because the DIY alternatives aren't close to the same functionality.

#2 and #3 are targets of Alexa, Google Assistant, and other DIY platforms.

[therockhr]

39 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

The reasoning is not because it will make the dealers mad. It's literally because the dealer model is considered a better solution than DIY.

It's 1000 times easier supporting individuals that are paid to install the solution than the random DIY hobbyist.

HE usage is extremely low. It's not something used by more than a handful of customers.

I actually agree with this.

I have said several times now that I dont think Control4 should ever market that anyone can program a system themselves. It should always be a dealer installed system. I have learned that even really smart people who havent had experience with real time systems might not understand how to program Control4 with just looking over a manual. They would obviously be able to learn it eventually but most people wont have the patience and will instead move on.

What I have said is that Control4 should do something to allow for these 1000 or so people who want to maintain their own system. This would cut down on the cracking. My last suggestion of opening up the driver program that costs a fee (one time or yearly) to allow for someone to have a license that allowed them to only connect to virtual director and their project for "development" would be a way to do this. It would also get more devs creating drivers as a result. A normal control4 customer would never care about this or have any idea it even existed. This would still maintain the system as being a dealer installed system as this person would still have to get the system installed by someone and buy parts from an authorized dealer.

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, Dunamivora said:

I agree with your categories of those interested in home automation.

Control4 targets and builds around #1. #2 and #3 just get upset because the DIY alternatives aren't close to the same functionality.

#2 and #3 are targets of Alexa, Google Assistant, and other DIY platforms.

i cant disagree with this either. control4 is a really nice system. it does lots of things really well that those others cant.

[-defunct-]

2 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I actually agree with this.

I have said several times now that I dont think Control4 should ever market that anyone can program a system themselves. It should always be a dealer installed system. I have learned that even really smart people who havent had experience with real time systems might not understand how to program Control4 with just looking over a manual. They would obviously be able to learn it eventually but most people wont have the patience and will instead move on.

What I have said is that Control4 should do something to allow for these 1000 or so people who want to maintain their own system. This would cut down on the cracking. My last suggestion of opening up the driver program that costs (one time or yearly) to allow for someone to have a license that allowed them to only connect to virtual director and their project for "development" would be a way to do this. It would also get more devs creating drivers as a result. A normal control4 customer would never care about this or have any idea it even existed. This would still maintain the system as being a dealer installed system as this person would still have to get the system installed by someone and buy parts from an authorized dealer.

hmm, interesting thoughts.

[tmj4]

23 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

Control4 would not exist without opensource services and utlities

No kidding. Hop on to any controller...

~# busybox | head -1
BusyBox v1.27.1 (2019-12-09 20:03:35 MST) multi-call binary.