wnpublic Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 (edited) I really don't want to sound like the guy (wapping?) who used to rant here on this topic, but as I plan a new house build (really, a semi-custom home where I bought early enough to get whatever i want put into the walls), and am choosing whether to go with C4 again, I'm struck by how far the open source stuff like Home Assistant has come in terms of functionality, user interface, and ability to tie together tons of different hardware into a pretty seamless experience - for about half the cost. In my current C4 house, I put in a "shadow" Home Assistant server running on a cheap raspberry PI and it is at least as functional as C4, with lots of things C4 can't do, or at least do easily. And the interface is miles better. It's not for everyone, because you are basically DIY'ing some server software, so there will always be people that just want some functionality in their house and will leave it to a dealer. But certainly every non-dealer that has found and used this site is capable of doing the setup and integration. And you have tons of control - much better use of presence detection, cameras, weather stations, to do different automations, etc. Just don't see how one company on a closed ecosystem can keep up. Anyways, just something on my mind. I promise that I won't post this over and over like we've seen in the past. Edited November 11, 2020 by wnpublic a little more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 What are you using C4 to do in your current house, and planning to do for your new house? Are you doing distributed audio? Distributed video? I have had C4 for ~13 yrs. Initially it was just lighting, blinds, fireplace and a few similar things. Now that I am using it for distributed audio and for a unified remote for video, although it is not distributed, I find C4 more valuable than ever. But I have not tried Home Assistant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Its like everything else - Control4 is not catering to the DIY crowd. Your walls are open, you could hire a plumber to run the piping or you can do it yourself. You can hire a dealer to do your AV or you can do it yourself. There are pros and cons on both sides of the fence that have been hashed out rather frequently. It is not what is better or worse. -defunct- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 What open source solution is as robust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 1 hour ago, msgreenf said: What open source solution is as robust? Not clear to me what you mean by “robust”. Some possibilities, and my own rating against Home Assistant: a system that does not break down easily or is not wholly affected by a single application failure (probably a tie - but a lot of C4 stuff is flaky - e.g., DS2, SR260, NEEO, Intercom and mobile app - and the advantage of an open system is that you have the choice to integrate non-flaky stuff) a system that either recovers quickly from or holds up well under exceptional circumstances (hard to say, haven't really stressed the EA-5, but Linux, especially containerized like Docker, is quite scalable and fault-tolerant) a system that is not wholly affected by a bug in one aspect of it (C4 loses) a system that comes with a wide range of capabilities (probably least likely to be your definition of robust) (C4 loses) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 I dont see the lose the way you do at all... Robust to me means wide ranging support for any hardware, cd players, etc 3 minutes ago, wnpublic said: a system that does not break down easily or is not wholly affected by a single application failure (probably a tie - but a lot of C4 stuff is flaky - e.g., DS2, SR260, NEEO, Intercom and mobile app - and the advantage of an open system is that you have the choice to integrate non-flaky stuff) I don't agree with your assessment there. If an SR260 doesn't work, that doesn't impact the remote. or keypads on the wall 3 minutes ago, wnpublic said: a system that either recovers quickly from or holds up well under exceptional circumstances (hard to say, haven't really stressed the EA-5, but Linux, especially containerized like Docker, is quite scalable and fault-tolerant) Again, you make a statement but can't back it up - c4 scales. 4 minutes ago, wnpublic said: a system that is not wholly affected by a bug in one aspect of it (C4 loses) I dont think so, how do you see that? 4 minutes ago, wnpublic said: a system that comes with a wide range of capabilities (probably least likely to be your definition of robust) (C4 loses) I don't see how home assistant has more capabilities. Can you control IR based devices with it? Can you use physical remotes with it? South Africa C4 user 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 Wow, the jimmies have been rustled. Anyways, I don't care enough to respond to every detail. Just a few things. 5 minutes ago, msgreenf said: I dont see the lose the way you do at all... Robust to me means wide ranging support for any hardware, cd players, etc That is a weird definition of robust, but under it, C4 loses. just read the forums - one of the main things people complain about re: C4 is that the hardware support is so limited - shockingly or not, mostly to stuff that dealers like to sell. In a sense it is a strength, because by limiting the choices, the performance and stability can be improved. But "wide ranging support for any hardware" for C4 is a fantasy. 13 minutes ago, msgreenf said: I don't see how home assistant has more capabilities. Can you control IR based devices with it? Can you use physical remotes with it? Yes and yes. Open your eyes. Or don't - I don't care. https://siytek.com/home-assistant-ir-blaster-setup-guide/ https://www.home-assistant.io/integrations/harmony/ Look, i like my C4 system, and I love my dealer. But pretending the answer is obvious isn't very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 Just now, wnpublic said: But "wide ranging support for any hardware" for C4 is a fantasy. C4 supports thousands of TVs for example...so that is limiting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 I have yet to see any DIY system be able to do distributed audio and tie it in with video as good as C4. Even if it could they wouldn’t have a hard button remote which is essential for me. I wish this wasn’t true but it is n South Africa C4 user, -defunct- and eggzlot 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 You've clearly already made up your mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveC4 Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 2 hours ago, wnpublic said: I really don't want to sound like the guy (wapping?) who used to rant here on this topic, but as I plan a new house build (really, a semi-custom home where I bought early enough to get whatever i want put into the walls), and am choosing whether to go with C4 again, I'm struck by how far the open source stuff like Home Assistant has come in terms of functionality, user interface, and ability to tie together tons of different hardware into a pretty seamless experience - for about half the cost. In my current C4 house, I put in a "shadow" Home Assistant server running on a cheap raspberry PI and it is at least as functional as C4, with lots of things C4 can't do, or at least do easily. And the interface is miles better. It's not for everyone, because you are basically DIY'ing some server software, so there will always be people that just want some functionality in their house and will leave it to a dealer. But certainly every non-dealer that has found and used this site is capable of doing the setup and integration. And you have tons of control - much better use of presence detection, cameras, weather stations, to do different automations, etc. Just don't see how one company on a closed ecosystem can keep up. Anyways, just something on my mind. I promise that I won't post this over and over like we've seen in the past. I'd like to learn more about your experience with Home Assistant. I really like Control4, but also yearn for a "DIY" option where I can buy whatever door lock I want, for example. I doubt that I'd switch away from Control4 if for no reason other than I have over 100 of their light switches in the walls, but I'd like to learn more about it. Where I've found the DIY systems lacking primarily centered around good solutions for things like Media Distribution. Both audio and video. If I want to watch Hulu in the Great Room, and then I want to also turn it on in the Master Bedroom...then I want to listen to Pandora in the pool house and on the back deck. Stuff like that. There are good lighting solutions (Lutron), camera solutions galore, blinds...everyone has their own app, but tying it together cohesively and doing the media distribution is what I struggle with other solutions providing. I will NOT get argumentative with you about it - I just want to learn. I'd love for Home Assistant to be a viable option! therockhr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted November 11, 2020 Share Posted November 11, 2020 lol, if it takes someone that knows how to use a rhaspberry pi to do an opensource system, then it's still not as easy or up to the standard. That may be open to DIY, but that does not make it better. I'd be curious to hear what you consider a full home system because the capabilities of a Control4 system are extensive and have support from other manufacturers. But... If this pulls those hardcore DIYers away, oh well. Those that aren't DIY will still desire someone to install a professional system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 To answer the question posed in the topic... in one word... no Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 If you do not need audio and/or video integration and are ok with just app control there are lots of different options out there that are just as good if not better than Control4. AV integration seems to be something that few companies are willing to tackle. Which makes sense as that is the section with the most variables and variety of different manufacturers and control methods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 Open source solutions' biggest weakness IMHO is that support is always going to be an issue. Sure, anyone *has the ability to* take the source and make changes / fixes, but as Home Automation (as full integration) is still a fairly niche market, you don't have the same drive for developers to fix things, and companies like Google / Microsoft / Oracle are just as likely to discontinue automation. Also, you can make Control4 just as 'failure hardened' as any open source system, you're really just talking about independent subsystems. If you choose independent subsystems for security, lighting, comfort, etc., a failure in Control4 will effect less your being able to still control things. Of course, most Control4 gear also gives you the same option. Control it locally if you need to. Control4's biggest strength is that as a platform, it brings disparate technologies into one consistent, smooth-working UI. The Open Source options are great for control, and some can even do limited AV control (I haven't found any that handle automatic path selection and power control, etc.), but every open source setup is different, every open source installation has a different UI. It would be a complete nightmare for a dealer, who needs a one stop shop for being able to just make it work so they can get paid. Control4's consistent UI and driver ecosystem is continually expanding and improving, and will continue to provide a straightforward setup that dealers can leverage. The 'base' Control4 builds on has been around for nearly 20 years, and I've updated my home project for 15 years, from Control4 OS version 1.2.3 to the latest OS 3.2 Beta. Same project, many of the original devices (lighting, distributed audio, etc). I don't think there's another manufacturer that can compare with that, without a dealer / homeowner having to rebuild the project / convert the project. That kind of long-lived project is not very likely with an open source project, because they don't have to care about backwards-compatibility. I'm never going to tell someone that if they want to do open source for their automation that they shouldn't, because if you want that level of control, be me guest, but you are now the dealer (and like most developers / IS people, I'm a fantastic programmer and problem solver, but a horrible dealer, as my wife will attest), and when things break, you're still the dealer, and have no leg to stand on as far as making a mfg / developer fix things. RyanE South Africa C4 user 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Köhler Medientechnik Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 In my opinion, it always comes done to the same assessment: If you´ve more time than money, then go for open-source/DIY, if it´s the other way round, go for an integrator. If, at the bottom of your heart, you´re actually a DIYler and actually want to play with the latest and greatest stuff yourself, then you´ll never be happy to pay somebody else to do that for you. But if you´re just rational about getting specific functionality without being interested how it is delivered, then let somebody else do it for you. In my opinion, it´s not about the pros and cons of system A or B, it´s more about your personal attitude towards DIY. ecschnei, RyanE and wnpublic 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BraydonH Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 OP talks about how the DIY stuff has a better UI... Perhaps it does? But I wonder if OP is on OS3, because it does sound like he is using an older, non updated version of C4 at his place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 5 minutes ago, BraydonH said: OP talks about how the DIY stuff has a better UI... Perhaps it does? But I wonder if OP is on OS3, because it does sound like he is using an older, non updated version of C4 at his place. Nope, OS3, and my great dealer helps me keep it up to date. The gear in my C4 house is circa late 2017 so is up to date too (except T3 screens not T4, but i suspect that's most of us here). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted November 12, 2020 Author Share Posted November 12, 2020 Thanks for the thoughtful input, esp. RyanE's point about being your own dealer, it makes a lot of sense, and explains why the C4 model works for so many and is popular. More globally, point wasn't to start a fight, so I don't see the utility of pushing back point by point, especially where it's based on what someone thinks they know, rather than having actually tried out and compared an open-source alternative. So I'll leave it at this: for less than $100 (free if you have an old computer sitting around) and about an hour's work, you can set up a shadow Home Assistant installation. It will control all of your C4 lights and switches (there's an integration that takes 30 seconds to install by clicking a UI button), and connect with a lot of other things you probably already have (like your Google or outlook calendar, your mobile device for geofencing, your MyQ (for free), and just about every other web-addressable device or service in your life). Then you can decide for yourself whether you are perfectly satisfied that you: paid to have touchscreens on your walls that are, inter alia, totally ignorant of user presence, can't show a simple calendar integration with everybody's schedule, and are only crudely customizable; have a mobile app that insists on "pulling project properties" for 5 seconds every time you open it; won't let you integrate with publicly available web services like Purple Air to display, and fire events off of their data; integrate for free with your other household devices like roombas or your own networking equipment; and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 28 minutes ago, wnpublic said: not T4, but i suspect that's most of us here). T4 hasn't shipped...so it's like all of us... wnpublic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanE Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 If your mobile devices are reloading every time you start them, you likely have a 'Refresh Navigators' driver or something else triggering refresh navigators frequently, which is certainly not recommended. RyanE msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 I looked at the Home Assistant Website for the first time Contact link says "no support" - not sure I'd trust a big home automation project to 100% tinkering/forum support without an official channel to seek out help (hardware or software related) If you want to tinker go DIY. If you want a custom install experience you go with C4, Savant, Crestron, etc. I am not sure why people always compare them. Do people compare Toyota and Lexus? Same company but they segment their target audiences over the two brands. Why doesn't GMC make a sports car? I've been buying GMC trucks for 20 years but now I want a convertible, why can't GMC make one? Its metal, 4 wheels and an engine, no? Does that mean Ford has "lapped" GMC because they offer a sports car and a pick up truck? Again there are so many analogies but at the end of the day C4 has a niche market. Home Assistant has a niche market. Its not better or worse. But without formal support and no video distribution it already fails 2 things on my checklist so I stopped kicking the tires. South Africa C4 user and RyanE 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 hour ago, eggzlot said: I've been buying GMC trucks for 20 years but now I want a convertible, why can't GMC make one? Corvette? ecschnei 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 minute ago, Cyknight said: Corvette? its a "Chevy" not a "GMC" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted November 12, 2020 Share Posted November 12, 2020 1 minute ago, eggzlot said: its a "Chevy" not a "GMC" LOL I'm aware, as well as being aware that Chevy and GMC trucks use the same chassis - but that goes back to Toyota vs Lexus. Just stirring the pot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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