House WiFi

[Gary Leeds UK]

Looking into updating the House Wifi 

Does the following play nice with C4 

The Orbi WiFi 6 System

https://store.netgear.co.uk/product/sxk30-100eus

[Jeff W]

In multiple access point setups I would highly recommend always be able to hardwire each access point.  It will save a ton of headaches on the mesh side.  Unless the brand has a dedicated 5 Ghz bandwidth for mesh traffic, each hop slows down the traffic.  In low cost consumer mesh devices, it can be up to 50% speed reduction per hop.  I know that can be difficult in some parts of the world based on housing construction, including in the UK with a lot of brick homes, but it is a better to hard wire each unit. 

Orbi has been reported with network issues / Control4.  It does have some challenges with SDDP, STP, Airplay, Bonjour and multicast traffic.  Netgear has two articles about it.  This was identified late last year.  Orbi may have resoled it, but wouldn't recommend it.  I know other companies have had some challenges with Orbi in multi access point setups, there was no Control4 product.  They had to get a hold of Orbi Tech support.  Orbi tech support was able to resolve the issues, but it took a couple of days to get everything sorted out.  I was trying to find a list to confirm the official stance but can't recall it's URL.

We've used Ruckus Wireless Access Points for almost a decade with great success.  In almost 10 years of use and hundreds of clients, I only had to remotely VPN into two different sites and power cycle the units.  Not bad for a run time of almost 6 years!  

It does come with a price tag, but it will outlast any consumer grade wifi/access point, has really nice features and has never let us down.

[Gary Leeds UK]

14 hours ago, Jeff W said:

In multiple access point setups I would highly recommend always be able to hardwire each access point.  It will save a ton of headaches on the mesh side.  Unless the brand has a dedicated 5 Ghz bandwidth for mesh traffic, each hop slows down the traffic.  In low cost consumer mesh devices, it can be up to 50% speed reduction per hop.  I know that can be difficult in some parts of the world based on housing construction, including in the UK with a lot of brick homes, but it is a better to hard wire each unit. 

Orbi has been reported with network issues / Control4.  It does have some challenges with SDDP, STP, Airplay, Bonjour and multicast traffic.  Netgear has two articles about it.  This was identified late last year.  Orbi may have resoled it, but wouldn't recommend it.  I know other companies have had some challenges with Orbi in multi access point setups, there was no Control4 product.  They had to get a hold of Orbi Tech support.  Orbi tech support was able to resolve the issues, but it took a couple of days to get everything sorted out.  I was trying to find a list to confirm the official stance but can't recall it's URL.

We've used Ruckus Wireless Access Points for almost a decade with great success.  In almost 10 years of use and hundreds of clients, I only had to remotely VPN into two different sites and power cycle the units.  Not bad for a run time of almost 6 years!  

It does come with a prce tag, but it will outlast any consumer grade wifi/access point, has really nice features and has never let us down.

Jeff, thank you - Will look at some at Ruckus access points 

 

[Jeff W]

Just a quick tip

• Ruckus 300, 500, 600, 700 are wifi5.
• Ruckus 310, 510, 610, 710 are wave 2
• Ruckus 350, 550, 650, 750 are wifi 6

Ruckus makes the models above for two different platforms.  The standalone models will require a controller (IE. Zone Director) if you have more than one access point.  You'll need an annual service contract for firmware upgrades using the Zone Director.

The other platform is Unleashed.  This platform takes the 'brain's of the zone director and puts them into the firmware for the Unleashed platform.  You can run multiple access points with unleashed and no service contract is required for firmware upgrades.  

The higher the model, the more MIMOs, speed, antenna, radio patterns the units can do.

[Amr]

On 8/25/2021 at 1:23 PM, Gary Leeds UK said:

Looking into updating the House Wifi 

Does the following play nice with C4 

The Orbi WiFi 6 System

https://store.netgear.co.uk/product/sxk30-100eus

No, Mesh WiFi systems are not C4 friendly at all

[OceanDad]

Ruckus.  And don’t look back.  Use Unleashed - it is free, and you don’t need a separate controller for residential.

But, if you can’t get a CAT cable to the right place for each one then you might have to consider a mesh solution.  Bear in mind that a well configured Ruckus WAP will have significantly better coverage than the standard consumer gear.  Our 4000 square foot home  is easily covered by a 710 and a 610, and would probably be ok with just one.

If you have to go mesh with a C4 system to consider, then Eero in bridge mode is probably a better bet than Orbi.  But definitely not ‘recommended’ by C4.

[Gary Leeds UK]

Cheers all just purchased the R550  Unleashed

[ejn1]

39 minutes ago, Gary Leeds UK said:

Cheers all just purchased the R550  Unleashed

Great option!

[Gary Leeds UK]

2 hours ago, ejn1 said:

Great option!

Would be OK mounting this on a wall rather then the ceiling ? 

[Jeff W]

The Unleashed R550 is a great choice!  Everything from the R5x0 has a second network jack that can be used for connecting a switch/additional equipment.

The recommended/ideal place is on a ceiling due to the antenna patterns.  The access points create a donut shaped coverage pattern, there is less signal behind the access point because there is a metal plate there (at least there used to be a metal plate). 

Technically speaking, you will probably get less coverage if you mount it vertically/on a wall. If you place it on an interior wall and want coverage behind that interior wall, it will be less.  If it's your only choice then as a last resort its ok. 

If you really want to install it on the ceiling and are looking for alternative methods to fishing a wire inside a wall, you could look into "Plastic race way / wiremolds".  

Examples of plastic race ways or wiremolds

 

Before mounting it, you could place it temporarily vertically and see how the performance is for a week or two.  

 

Tip:  When you create a new wifi, it will automatically create it using 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz radios.  If you have sonos or older equipment that only has a 2.4Ghz radio, you can create a second SSID just for that equipment.  You can have a total of 32 SSIDs, yes, 32 SSIDs. 

 

 

[OceanDad]

Would love to hear your review once it's installed, especially with Wi-Fi6.  All of the installs I have done with Ruckus have been rock solid, even with strange buildings containing a lot of metal.

[homeauto01]

Would like to tag onto this thread since I am considering Ruckus AP's right now.  I am not proficient in networking so I may be stumbling around a bit.  I have a Luxul XAP 1510 AP in the middle of my 5000 sf two story house.  It actually has amazing coverage due to the open floor plan of the house I suppose.  I would like to expand the coverage to be stronger on the far ends of the house and expand into the yard a little further.  I was about to just get another Luxul AP to add to my network.  When looking into it, I came to the conclusion that I would need a Luxul controller to manage the 2 APs.  I did some more research and found the strong recommendations for Ruckus Unleased AP's.  I then discovered that Ruckus can assign one AP as a master and it can control multiple AP's without the need for an external controller.  So with the availability of refurbished R610's at around $240 it seems to make more sense to just buy 2 R610's and ditch my existing Luxul.

1.Does this seem like a logical plan?

2.Will two R610's be "too much" for this size house?  Is there such a thing as "too much" wifi in a given space?  Interference of any kind etc?

3. Is it a mistake to not go with Wifi 6 at this point?  Probably costs double since not as many refurbished units if any available.

 

[ejn1]

3 hours ago, OceanDad said:

Would love to hear your review once it's installed, especially with Wi-Fi6.  All of the installs I have done with Ruckus have been rock solid, even with strange buildings containing a lot of metal.

I have 2 R650’s and the only clients it really connects to are late model iPhones on Wifi6.   Wi-Fi 6 is solid but really not much different than speeds for Ruckus on Wave 2 from what I’ve seen so far.  

[Jeff W]

2 hours ago, homeauto01 said:

2.Will two R610's be "too much" for this size house?  Is there such a thing as "too much" wifi in a given space?  Interference of any kind etc?

3. Is it a mistake to not go with Wifi 6 at this point?  Probably costs double since not as many refurbished units if any available.

 

 

2.  Yes there is technically too much wifi is bad type of scenarios.  If you have access points that are over lapping their coverage with strong signal, this can create a problem.  Second, if you're APs are using overlapping frequncies because their is too many in a small space, then this is also bad.

3.  It depends on how long you'd like to keep the 610s for.  Wifi6 is more expensive at the moment, but it does have it's advantages.  Those advantages are improved air time handling capability and the increased speeds.  See down below.

 

1 hour ago, ejn1 said:

I have 2 R650’s and the only clients it really connects to are late model iPhones on Wifi6.   Wi-Fi 6 is solid but really not much different than speeds for Ruckus on Wave 2 from what I’ve seen so far.  

 

Ruckus 610's can in real world applications hit around 400+ Mbs for their speed.  This all depends on the interference from neighbors etc etc etc.  

Ruckus 650's can easily hit 800+ Mbs for their speeds.  Again, depends on interference and several other factors.  I have seen a noticeable difference with the 650s.  Primarily because it's a 4:4:4 radio compared to 3:3:3 for the 610s. 

Wifi 6 drastically increases the AP's ability to maximize the data/throughput per device based on it's time needs.  Wifi 6 is also faster in sending that information.  But you need wifi6 wireless clients (phones, tablets, computers etc etc etc) to have those wifi 6 chipsets.

In order to take full advantage of a wifi 6 access point.  You need three things  1) Your ISP needs to offer true internet speeds over 1Gig*.  2) you need to buy new networking gear.  The PoE port on the back of the Ruckus 650 is a 2.5Gbs port.  It is backwards compatible with 1gig switches. 3) you need wifi6 devices.

 

*One of our local ISP providers is offering 1.5Gbps internet.  However, if you read the small print, it's not on one connection.  They are splitting that speed over simultaneous 500mbs connections.  

[ejn1]

22 minutes ago, Jeff W said:

 

2.  Yes there is technically too much wifi is bad type of scenarios.  If you have access points that are over lapping their coverage with strong signal, this can create a problem.  Second, if you're APs are using overlapping frequncies because their is too many in a small space, then this is also bad.

3.  It depends on how long you'd like to keep the 610s for.  Wifi6 is more expensive at the moment, but it does have it's advantages.  Those advantages are improved air time handling capability and the increased speeds.  See down below.

 

 

Ruckus 610's can in real world applications hit around 400+ Mbs for their speed.  This all depends on the interference from neighbors etc etc etc.  

Ruckus 650's can easily hit 800+ Mbs for their speeds.  Again, depends on interference and several other factors.  I have seen a noticeable difference with the 650s.  Primarily because it's a 4:4:4 radio compared to 3:3:3 for the 610s. 

Wifi 6 drastically increases the AP's ability to maximize the data/throughput per device based on it's time needs.  Wifi 6 is also faster in sending that information.  But you need wifi6 wireless clients (phones, tablets, computers etc etc etc) to have those wifi 6 chipsets.

In order to take full advantage of a wifi 6 access point.  You need three things  1) Your ISP needs to offer true internet speeds over 1Gig*.  2) you need to buy new networking gear.  The PoE port on the back of the Ruckus 650 is a 2.5Gbs port.  It is backwards compatible with 1gig switches. 3) you need wifi6 devices.

 

*One of our local ISP providers is offering 1.5Gbps internet.  However, if you read the small print, it's not on one connection.  They are splitting that speed over simultaneous 500mbs connections.  

I was comparing my R650's vs my R720 so 4x4 vs 4x4.   If buying new,  I would get the Wifi6 models (as I have) but just saying in real world scenarios I personally have not seen "much" difference on Wifi Sweetspots (throughput) on my Wifi6 band vs AC2.   Both are great on Ruckus.   I get around 700+ Mbs throughput anyhere near an AP.   I have everything on your checklist list with the exception of ISP > 1GIG.    

Bottom line is Ruckus is an amazing product and that goes for their prior gen series as well.

 

[Jeff W]

16 minutes ago, ejn1 said:

Bottom line is Ruckus is an amazing product and that goes for their prior gen series as well.

100% !!!

[homeauto01]

5 hours ago, Jeff W said:

 

2.  Yes there is technically too much wifi is bad type of scenarios.  If you have access points that are over lapping their coverage with strong signal, this can create a problem.  Second, if you're APs are using overlapping frequncies because their is too many in a small space, then this is also bad.

3.  It depends on how long you'd like to keep the 610s for.  Wifi6 is more expensive at the moment, but it does have it's advantages.  Those advantages are improved air time handling capability and the increased speeds.  See down below.

 

 

Ruckus 610's can in real world applications hit around 400+ Mbs for their speed.  This all depends on the interference from neighbors etc etc etc.  

Ruckus 650's can easily hit 800+ Mbs for their speeds.  Again, depends on interference and several other factors.  I have seen a noticeable difference with the 650s.  Primarily because it's a 4:4:4 radio compared to 3:3:3 for the 610s. 

Wifi 6 drastically increases the AP's ability to maximize the data/throughput per device based on it's time needs.  Wifi 6 is also faster in sending that information.  But you need wifi6 wireless clients (phones, tablets, computers etc etc etc) to have those wifi 6 chipsets.

In order to take full advantage of a wifi 6 access point.  You need three things  1) Your ISP needs to offer true internet speeds over 1Gig*.  2) you need to buy new networking gear.  The PoE port on the back of the Ruckus 650 is a 2.5Gbs port.  It is backwards compatible with 1gig switches. 3) you need wifi6 devices.

 

*One of our local ISP providers is offering 1.5Gbps internet.  However, if you read the small print, it's not on one connection.  They are splitting that speed over simultaneous 500mbs connections.  

Thanks for this great answer.  Sounds like I do not need Wifi 6 since I only have 500Gbps internet. In regards to too much Wifi.  Is it likely that two R610's spread out in a 5000 sf two story house will experience any interference problems that you mention above?  Since my current single Luxul AP has pretty good coverage, it stands to reason that there will in fact be some significant overlap with 2 R610's.

[homeauto01]

7 hours ago, ejn1 said:

I have 2 R650’s and the only clients it really connects to are late model iPhones on Wifi6.   Wi-Fi 6 is solid but really not much different than speeds for Ruckus on Wave 2 from what I’ve seen so far.  

What size area are these two R650's covering?  Any interference problems?

[ejn1]

53 minutes ago, homeauto01 said:

What size area are these two R650's covering?  Any interference problems?

I have a 2 story 5000 sq ft home with 3 aps on first floor and one R650 on second floor central ceiling location.  One of the aps on first floor is desk mount just for my master bedroom. 
 

no interference issues 

[ejn1]

56 minutes ago, homeauto01 said:

Thanks for this great answer.  Sounds like I do not need Wifi 6 since I only have 500Gbps internet. In regards to too much Wifi.  Is it likely that two R610's spread out in a 5000 sf two story house will experience any interference problems that you mention above?  Since my current single Luxul AP has pretty good coverage, it stands to reason that there will in fact be some significant overlap with 2 R610's.

I would suggest 3 APs in your setup but depends on a lot of factors and how much performance you want.

[Jeff W]

1 hour ago, homeauto01 said:

Thanks for this great answer.  Sounds like I do not need Wifi 6 since I only have 500Gbps internet. In regards to too much Wifi.  Is it likely that two R610's spread out in a 5000 sf two story house will experience any interference problems that you mention above?  Since my current single Luxul AP has pretty good coverage, it stands to reason that there will in fact be some significant overlap with 2 R610's.

 

Regarding speed.  If you transfer large files between computers then wifi 6 can be beneficial.  If your primary target is the internet, then wifi 5 / wave 2 APs will be just fine for the time being.

Regarding interference.  That depends on numerous factors outside interference, building materials, house layout. etc etc.  One method to test, is to setup both APs at opposite ends of the house.  Turn off one AP.  While your connected to the one AP that is on.  Roam around the house and see where the edge of the RF signal is.  Then turn off the first unit, turn on the second unit that was off and see where the signal falls off for the second unit.  You want the other AP's signal to just over lap where the first signal is dying.  If need be, you can adjust the power on the ruckus to accomplish this.  This can help you dial in your wifi.  

Outside interference.  With Ruckus the system scans the RF environment and the AP's can automatically change the frequency and what channels they can use.

1,6,11 for 2.4Ghz is non over lapping channels.  If there is no interference, IE you live on a farm/rural area.  You could even lock one AP to channel 1 and the other AP to channel 6.  But if you're in a higher destiny area, you can just select 1,6 and 11 and let the system pick for it self.  On 5Ghz there is a lot more channels available, so it's usually not as big of a concern.

Ruckus has two different types of back ground scanning.  Channel Fly and Background scanning.  These will build a map basically of what other APs throughput and channel is happening on neighboring AP's.  Over a short period of time based on other wifi, your Ruckus will know when to change the frequency, what channel to use etc etc.  

With lesser quality AP's (other brands) you often need more.  With Ruckus they have always had a bigger, wider RF coverage and you need less.  I have countless success stories of ripping out multiple competitor brands APs and boosters and replacing with just one Ruckus.

One option is to install one AP on the top floor.  Opposite side of the house install the second unit on the main floor.  This will help give separation.  What you want to avoid doing, is stacking the AP's on top of each other on different floors. 

It really depends how your house is laid out.  I have several clients with ~4,000 sq ft home and just one Ruckus R610 installed at the center top floor of the home and it gets awesome coverage through the entire home.  But again, these are 2x4 constructed homes that have a square footprint.

[Jeff W]

@Gary Leeds UK let us know how it turns out.  If you have any questions, feel free to ask away!

[ejn1]

10 hours ago, Jeff W said:

It really depends how your house is laid out.  I have several clients with ~4,000 sq ft home and just one Ruckus R610 installed at the center top floor of the home and it gets awesome coverage through the entire home.  But again, these are 2x4 constructed homes that have a square footprint.

Some good advice but I would be surprised if 1 R610 covered a two story home with "good" coverage.   When I first tested Ruckus,  I put a single R650 in my upstairs centrally located ceiling location thinking it was fairly ideal for central coverage and i definitely needed more.   I was fine with 3 in my 5000sqft home (the 4th in the master bedroom is overkill but I also needed for outside pool equipment wifi coverage through brick).  My home is 2x4 construction but definitely not a simple rectangular footprint.  

Another reflection I found with Ruckus was that all the channel optimization and strength and interference tweaking (assuming decent AP placement) was really not needed as the Ruckus controller software did a fantastic job of doing all that for me.     When I had Ubiquiti AP's, I found myself having to tweak a bit more.

 

[Control4Savant]

On 8/25/2021 at 11:58 AM, Jeff W said:

In multiple access point setups I would highly recommend always be able to hardwire each access point.  It will save a ton of headaches on the mesh side.  Unless the brand has a dedicated 5 Ghz bandwidth for mesh traffic, each hop slows down the traffic.  In low cost consumer mesh devices, it can be up to 50% speed reduction per hop.  I know that can be difficult in some parts of the world based on housing construction, including in the UK with a lot of brick homes, but it is a better to hard wire each unit. 

Orbi has been reported with network issues / Control4.  It does have some challenges with SDDP, STP, Airplay, Bonjour and multicast traffic.  Netgear has two articles about it.  This was identified late last year.  Orbi may have resoled it, but wouldn't recommend it.  I know other companies have had some challenges with Orbi in multi access point setups, there was no Control4 product.  They had to get a hold of Orbi Tech support.  Orbi tech support was able to resolve the issues, but it took a couple of days to get everything sorted out.  I was trying to find a list to confirm the official stance but can't recall it's URL.

We've used Ruckus Wireless Access Points for almost a decade with great success.  In almost 10 years of use and hundreds of clients, I only had to remotely VPN into two different sites and power cycle the units.  Not bad for a run time of almost 6 years!  

It does come with a price tag, but it will outlast any consumer grade wifi/access point, has really nice features and has never let us down.

I am unsure of what difficulties this companies had with Orbi but it sounds like they may not have enough network experience? Maybe just unfamiliar. Which Orbi are we talking about? There are consumer and pro grade varieties. "Mesh" systems like this generally allow better/omi directional coverage versus a traditional RF cone w/ceiling mount AP.  I use Obri pro as my main WiFi "mesh" system if the budget allows and I have a Pro 6 as my current router and central AP w/ a hardwired outdoor AP and mesh sat. (which includes internal 4 port switch).  I have systems with 4+ of these, all hard-lined or a combination of these towers, managed switches and traditional APs in hardwire and mesh formats. They have caused zero issues Control4 client systems.  Even with consumer models clients purchase without my advisement. 

https://www.netgear.com/business/wifi/mesh/sxk80/

Iv been open on here about Rukus and generally thinking its over priced but certainly won't be disappointed performance wise. Im also a big Ubiquity guy...though they have been making interesting management changes. I like to practice proper networking techniques so 1 AP cranked on high isn't my favorite design even in a square footprint. Im sure you will get good connection all around but the idea of high performance wifi is multiple close proximity APs if you really want to take advantage of high throughput speeds all round the house. WiFi5/6 makes this pretty easy with some good metering. 

[Gary Leeds UK]

What a brilliant bit of kit 

amazingly easy to set up and boy does it work well 

Our T3 which are all WiFi ~never worked so well - intercom is amazing 

THANK YOU