wnpublic Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 13 hours ago, Dunamivora said: Preventing unauthorized users from accessing systems that should require authorization and protecting the businesses of our direct customers (dealers). Classic middle manager thinking. The point myself and others are making is that protecting your dealers would be better accomplished by investing in growing the base, not defending the perimeter from a small band of pirates. adelatorre and therockhr 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therockhr Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 13 hours ago, Dunamivora said: Preventing unauthorized users from accessing systems that should require authorization and protecting the businesses of our direct customers (dealers). This is an honest answer I guess. I understand, but even you admitted that (maybe sarcastically) that the number of end users who want Pro is probably .1% of installs. If thats the case, doesnt seem worth the effort unless you felt you would lose dealers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 13 minutes ago, therockhr said: This is an honest answer I guess. I understand, but even you admitted that (maybe sarcastically) that the number of end users who want Pro is probably .1% of installs. If thats the case, doesnt seem worth the effort unless you felt you would lose dealers. It depends, dealers complain about it being available, even if .1% utilize it. The bigger issue, from my perspective, is risk of an unauthorized business utilizing it to take over management of systems and hackers utilizing it to target end-users/customers. It would be wholly different if the access was granted without cracking it wide open for everyone, hence the push to lock it down. I would also not be able to argue it is high risk if it wasn't available to the general public. (github). So I guess thank Garry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 18 minutes ago, wnpublic said: Classic middle manager thinking. The point myself and others are making is that protecting your dealers would be better accomplished by investing in growing the base, not defending the perimeter from a small band of pirates. We're doing that as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 32 minutes ago, wnpublic said: Classic middle manager thinking. The point myself and others are making is that protecting your dealers would be better accomplished by investing in growing the base, not defending the perimeter from a small band of pirates. I am still waiting for the $300 65” Sony OLED TV, the $45,000 new Lamborghini and the $200 Jura espresso machine. Those companies are really missing the mark by not growing their customer base they are probably headed off a cliff It’s called market segmentation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo1738 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 Maybe a version of pro locked down to 1 system (end users own) would suffice. This way you know someone isn't going rogue and taking over jobs etc. adelatorre 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 8 minutes ago, Neo1738 said: Maybe a version of pro locked down to 1 system (end users own) would suffice. This way you know someone isn't going rogue and taking over jobs etc. That has been discussed, but it was scrapped in favor of alternatives, like the Neeo's self-add ability and the Add Music driver. End user functionality, if added, will not come in the form of Composer Pro. wnpublic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neo1738 Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 Just now, Dunamivora said: That has been discussed, but it was scrapped in favor of alternatives, like the Neeo's self-add ability and the Add Music driver. End user functionality, if added, will not come in the form of Composer Pro. Gotcha. I can see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 4 hours ago, eggzlot said: I am still waiting for the $300 65” Sony OLED TV, the $45,000 new Lamborghini and the $200 Jura espresso machine. Those companies are really missing the mark by not growing their customer base they are probably headed off a cliff It’s called market segmentation. Yes, and Snap has segmented itself into the "unprofitable small player" segment. It's genius, really, which is why only you can truly appreciate it. Enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts (it'll be shorter than you'd like) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted October 24, 2021 Share Posted October 24, 2021 24 minutes ago, wnpublic said: Yes, and Snap has segmented itself into the "unprofitable small player" segment. It's genius, really, which is why only you can truly appreciate it. Enjoy the ride for as long as it lasts (it'll be shorter than you'd like) It’s already been 8 years. I have more than received value out of my investment. If they went belly up tomorrow, 95% of my system will still work - it is not as if I am adding new hardware and upgrading firmware every week. Very little of my system is cloud based. It is a stable mature system and it just works. heck you hear about people on here with 1.7.4 still working. Without any knowledge or someone who does this for a living, just reading online and talking to people it seems like SNAP is adding new lines, increasing distribution, etc. As a public company I am sure there is now more eyes on them. I feel confident more time with this platform. End of day people have been talking about the demise of the custom install market for 20+ years. Large or small, there will be market for up market custom installation just as there is a market for DIY. Just pick what fits you and buy into the right solution for you. Do you feel the same way about Savant, Crestron Home, RTI , etc? Just curious if your bone is C4 as a bitter end user or former dealer with an agenda or you just have an issue with custom install platforms. Not that it matters but maybe it will better help me understand your angst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wnpublic Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 3 hours ago, eggzlot said: Do you feel the same way about Savant, Crestron Home, RTI , etc? Just curious if your bone is C4 as a bitter end user or former dealer with an agenda or you just have an issue with custom install platforms. Not that it matters but maybe it will better help me understand your angst. Angst? Odd word choice if in fact you know what it means. I have none. I am living with C4 in one of three homes I own and so I speak the truth about it. I don't worship corporations, or my purchases from them. It's not true of everyone, it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 18 minutes ago, wnpublic said: Angst? Odd word choice if in fact you know what it means. I have none. I am living with C4 in one of three homes I own and so I speak the truth about it. I don't worship corporations, or my purchases from them. It's not true of everyone, it seems. I don’t worship them. You haven’t seen my posts on SIP implementation along with DS1/DS2 or my issues with backlighting on lighting devices. No company is perfect. I’ve also mentioned it would be great to buy hardware online and give credit to your dealer of record - big green egg is doing that now with a local dealer fulfilling the order - they may make a few bucks less on the sale but it’s also less work for them. I also wish HE was more modern and the ability to sort and search better. I think the Neeo remote missed a few marks. with all warts comes more positives. And when people ask about certain topics if I have an issue I’ll let them know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted October 25, 2021 Share Posted October 25, 2021 The end user's desiring Pro is very small. Most are probably on here. Then there's those who would play with it, buying used from ebay and the like, and complaining the stuff is junk because they don't know what they're doing. And a few very bad apples who could use it to damage the brand and mess with peoples systems. Or non-dealers messing with what they don't understand. And for all that, the overhead of support would be insane, and damage to brand. Legitimate requests, and ideas on how it could be done, granted vs expense and damage. And no offsetting revenue, how many more systems would be sold if offered? Sure, they could charge fees, I guarantee they would be way more than the dealer folks on here charge to add a device, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haveitall Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Sure... the company can do what it wants. But... The consumer market has come a long way. I know two people who have moved and didn't put it into their new place. I wouldn't bother with it if I moved. I can get all the functionality with consumer stuff, with the reliability, without the head-banging when I need the smallest thing tweaked. That option didn't exist when I originally installed it years ago. I certainly wouldn't buy stock in C4 now. But I love my system while it lasts. wnpublic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DropPacket Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 The fight to stop "The right to repair" is based on corporate greed and nothing else... The claim is its to protect IP but those really able to "steal" this IP are already doing so successfully even in a locked down ecosystem. The classic example and maybe the first to start this fight were farmers and companies like International Harvester not allowing the farmers or small repair shops to work on the equipment they purchased. Again the problem is the technology is already being stolen by our number 1 world competitor, China. People are getting fed up with being told what to do, or what they can't do, as is evident right now with the labor force and mandates. You have firefighters retiring early or quitting their jobs, jobs with amazing six figure pensions and healthcare for life, because they are being told they must be vaccinated. Times are changing and they will continue to change rapidly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 7 hours ago, Smarter_Than_You said: ... LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Not sure how this thread got to vaccines... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haveitall Posted November 3, 2021 Share Posted November 3, 2021 Sort of like the old adage that all internet arguments end with a comparison to Nazis… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted November 5, 2021 Share Posted November 5, 2021 On 11/3/2021 at 2:53 PM, msgreenf said: Not sure how this thread got to vaccines... Well, there was a lot of talk about 'bugs' I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jfizzle Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 As I mentioned above, the US Copyright Office was looking at this issue and has now issued updated rules relating to Right to Repair and did so as exemptions to the DMCA anti-circumvention provisions. https://www.natlawreview.com/article/us-copyright-office-expands-rights-to-repair-software-enabled-devices Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAV Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 "This proposed class initially included “modification” in addition to diagnosis, maintenance and repair, but the exemption for modifications was ultimately eliminated. The Register reasoned that including all “modification[s]” would encompass both infringing and noninfringing activities and would implicate the right to prepare derivative works, as well as other issues." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-defunct- Posted November 12, 2021 Share Posted November 12, 2021 Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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