Right to Repair

[mujtaba.khokhar]

2 hours ago, wnpublic said:

That's what you drew from this? SMH.  Yet end users are morons....

Yeah sorry if I didn’t understand. 
 

please care to explain. 

[Control4Savant]

I have a $299hr. repair fee for anyone who wants the "right to repair" a managed system. 

[C4 User]

IMHO

No dealer wants to hear this, but I am willing to bet that providing a pathway for users to have Pro would actually increase their business and reduce “i need service now”.

Pro could sell for a $1000 a license or more, could be a cloud based license with no download, and require paid training with exam before you can buy. Even at this price and with training, those with large enough systems would buy and those with smaller system would probably complain, but so what, if you want it, buy it.

When a user uses Pro and messes up their system, so what, its on them and their dealer can charge their hourly rate to fix it. After the first time, that user will learn to be more careful or to make backups before messing around.

I believe the reality is, users would use Pro to self install and identify minor upgrades like installing switch’s, touch panels, maybe misc drivers, making virtual connections vs programming, and system updates. This will all lead to more hardware and driver sales and more money for dealers.

And, I am pretty sure users would still call their dealers to handle the major upgrades to their system, of which their would be more because users would do more with their systems.

[eggzlot]

10 minutes ago, C4 User said:

Pro could sell for a $1000 a license or more, could be a cloud based license with no download, and require paid training with exam before you can buy. Even at this price and with training, those with large enough systems would buy and those with smaller system would probably complain, but so what, if you want it, buy it.

When a user uses Pro and messes up their system, so what, its on them and their dealer can charge their hourly rate to fix it. After the first time, that user will learn to be more careful or to make backups before messing around.

this model has been discussed on here many times.  lutron has some training end users can take and get access to some of their software I believe.  that said C4 doesn’t see “when a user messes up their system” to be a luxury/upscale platform.  #s were discussed that likely 2-3% of users at most are on this forum as power users.  we think we are more vocal and popular, but we arent.  those end users who want more power go to DIY systems.

if c4/snap - which is publically traded and has shareholders - thought there was a revenue stream to make more money and increase their revenue I am sure it has been discussed.  Making Pro available to everyone I am sure has been discussed and they probably realize how many dealers will leave and go to another platform and it will be more detrimental to their bottom line.

[Control4Savant]

9 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

this model has been discussed on here many times.  lutron has some training end users can take and get access to some of their software I believe.  that said C4 doesn’t see “when a user messes up their system” to be a luxury/upscale platform.  #s were discussed that likely 2-3% of users at most are on this forum as power users.  we think we are more vocal and popular, but we arent.  those end users who want more power go to DIY systems.

if c4/snap - which is publically traded and has shareholders - thought there was a revenue stream to make more money and increase their revenue I am sure it has been discussed.  Making Pro available to everyone I am sure has been discussed and they probably realize how many dealers will leave and go to another platform and it will be more detrimental to their bottom line.

Yep, not only discussed here but dealers and manufactures (ones not asleep at the wheel)  are constantly discussing different pathways for client, system management.  A lot of dealers are already operating in a lic/subscription based system successfully. Most large revenue dealerships will have to address this at some point soon. Smaller dealerships are fully capable of installing hybrid systems that allow for full end user involvement w/ low support overhead. 

[-defunct-]

.1% of users complain about no Pro access.

It's doubtful Pro will be available in any form to a user, but alternative methods of customization might exist.

[therockhr]

3 hours ago, C4 User said:

IMHO

No dealer wants to hear this, but I am willing to bet that providing a pathway for users to have Pro would actually increase their business and reduce “i need service now”.

Pro could sell for a $1000 a license or more, could be a cloud based license with no download, and require paid training with exam before you can buy. Even at this price and with training, those with large enough systems would buy and those with smaller system would probably complain, but so what, if you want it, buy it.

When a user uses Pro and messes up their system, so what, its on them and their dealer can charge their hourly rate to fix it. After the first time, that user will learn to be more careful or to make backups before messing around.

I believe the reality is, users would use Pro to self install and identify minor upgrades like installing switch’s, touch panels, maybe misc drivers, making virtual connections vs programming, and system updates. This will all lead to more hardware and driver sales and more money for dealers.

And, I am pretty sure users would still call their dealers to handle the major upgrades to their system, of which their would be more because users would do more with their systems.

I used to think this but I have changed. It's just not worth the hassle to provide any official way for users to get pro. Not worth it to appease a small percent of users (im one of them). If I was Control4 I would just make it so that if someone ever got a hold of the pro software that they wouldnt be restricted by any license checks. The stance would then be end users cant have pro but if they got a hold of it oh well.

[-defunct-]

2 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I used to think this but I have changed. It's just not worth the hassle to provide any official way for users to get pro. Not worth it to appease a small percent of users (im one of them). If I was Control4 I would just make it so that if someone ever got a hold of the pro software that they wouldnt be restricted by any license checks. The stance would then be end users cant have pro but if they got a hold of it oh well.

And then a hacker gets it and 'oh well'.

Licensing and restrictions will not be going away, in fact, they will be doing the opposite.

[therockhr]

1 hour ago, Dunamivora said:

And then a hacker gets it and 'oh well'.

?? Hackers already have a hold of it and always will. What does licensing and restrictions do to stop hackers?

[Dave w]

On 10/17/2021 at 3:30 PM, Dunamivora said:

The recent legislation in that regard is pushing manufacturers to implement autoupdate so consumers and installers do not have to manually update.

And every time that happen on one of my devices I need to call my C4 dealer and pay them to fix the broken driver I can't access.....

 

On 10/19/2021 at 7:16 AM, mujtaba.khokhar said:

Aslo, sorry if i offended anyone you're not morons. i was just giving my perspective at the end of the day I run a Home Automation company, if laws came in to prevent me from stopping doing my job id be screwed.

The laws will never prevent you from doing your job.  I can wire my own house, that doesn't mean people don't still hire electricians to help them.  Being able to do things is not the same as wanting to or being capable of doing them.  If you are good at your job there will always be demand.   

C4 could solve all of this by following the Lutron model and opening up level 1 training to customers that are so inclined to go through it (a very small percentage of customers, btw) and learn how to do basic tasks like dragging and dropping a driver and configuring bindings.   

[-defunct-]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

?? Hackers already have a hold of it and always will. What does licensing and restrictions do to stop hackers?

Currently do, won't always.

New changes will come to shut all of it down.

Their work has been fantastic research to read through.

[RAV]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

?? Hackers already have a hold of it and always will. What does licensing and restrictions do to stop hackers?

Doesn't stop hackers, no different than locks don't stop crooks.

If a problem were to happen.... 'We make every effort to control the distribution and access to the software.'

The difference between Unlawful Entry and Breaking and Entry, generally comes down to a lock being in place.
Was there an active ongoing attempt to protect the property?

[eggzlot]

23 minutes ago, Dave w said:

 C4 could solve all of this by following the Lutron model and opening up level 1 training to customers that are so inclined to go through it (a very small percentage of customers, btw) and learn how to do basic tasks like dragging and dropping a driver and configuring bindings.   

"solve" means there is an issue.  C4 doesn't see an issue.  Do not take this personally as an attack, you have the "issue".  so nothing for C4 to "solve".  And this is coming from me, an end user. 

Here is a system that is both DIY and Dealer Install: http://allonis.com/ - Not being blunt but just saying you have options.  Probably has less driver support and hardware support but its 100% DIY with a UI interface, etc.

Also - based on a quick internet search, Lutron has about $500mm in revenue whereas Snap AV has $54mm in revenue.  And that Snap Revenue is not all C4 of course.  So to compare the resources/bandwidth of Lutron vs Snap/C4 is not really an apples to apples comparison.

[OceanDad]

37 minutes ago, eggzlot said:

whereas Snap AV has $54mm in revenue.

No.  SNPO has annual revenue in the $800m-$1bn. range.  Last quarter revenue was $253m.  Obv not all C4, but it's a bigger business than Lutron.  Control4 were tracking at around $275m in annual revenue at the time of the Snap AV 'merger'.

[eggzlot]

8 minutes ago, OceanDad said:

No.  SNPO has annual revenue in the $800m-$1bn. range.  Last quarter revenue was $253m.  Obv not all C4, but it's a bigger business than Lutron.  Control4 were tracking at around $275m in annual revenue at the time of the Snap AV 'merger'.

so my internet research is off (which is why my wife handles our investment portfolio) but C4 as a business is still half the size of Lutron, half the resources, etc.

And my google searches are telling me Snap missed their q3 targets but that is another story

[zaphod]

4 hours ago, therockhr said:

?? Hackers already have a hold of it and always will. What does licensing and restrictions do to stop hackers?

Hackers has negative connotations, and isn't really accurate. Replace("Hackers","ProSumers").

I am guessing that one or two ProSumers on this forum have a hold of it as well. And it increases the value of their C4 system. 

[cdepaola]

.

[-defunct-]

5 minutes ago, cdepaola said:

It is important to realize that nothing is unhackable.  There isn't a piece of software I'm aware of that can't be hacked or hasn't been hacked.   I'd argue even insinuating that something can't be hacked will driver hackers to prove you wrong faster then you can say,  "oh, shit"...

It is far better to keep a low profile and not make a big deal of it OR advertise that your software now can't be hacked, secure it to the best of your ability sure but then stay low and fly under the radar. 

 

I disagree here, but only because I have seen software that makes it so difficult to bypass checks that 99.9% of people are shut out and the remaining .1% can be dealt with by other means.

 

As it is, the hacks to bypass Composer licensing are elementary and I'd argue we have not done a good job at ensuring security in the configuration tool.

[cdepaola]

.

[-defunct-]

11 minutes ago, cdepaola said:

You can disagree all you want... However hackers have made it a habit of proving people wrong when they tout their systems or software can't be hacked.  Ask every major credit card company, bank, Amazon, etc.  Companies with resources that dwarf control4 by massive order of magnitude. Ask the people that have had their BitCoin hacked and stolen. Hell its been proven you can hack air gapped networks, in multiple ways...

I'm not proposing that Control4 does nothing, I'm simply making a point that one of the absolute dumbest things someone within C4 or SnapOne's ranks can do is say that you can't hack our systems or software.  That does nothing but make you look uneducated and provokes those that make a living of proving just how easy it is to hack anything.   

When we are at that point, that statement will be expected to be challenged.

The validation we did security right is when those attempts fail.

 

I actually embrace the attention. Every hole is something more I can use to promote the full secure ecosystem.

[msgreenf]

is this the whole reason bug bounties exist?  

[wnpublic]

9 minutes ago, Dunamivora said:

When we are at that point, that statement will be expected to be challenged.

The validation we did security right is when those attempts fail.

 

I actually embrace the attention. Every hole is something more I can use to promote the full secure ecosystem.

The real question is whether the platform can be made secure to the point that it's too much hassle for there to be sustained efforts to get around the security.  Certainly seems doable, given the small size of the user population (this ain't Call of Duty), and the much smaller proportion of that base willing to hack their way into Pro usage.

The "even realer" question is whether the company is well-served by doing it.  Snapone doesn't have the real wherewithal for long-term investment here, it is not profitable overall, and there are so many gaps in C4 that are not security-related that it seems a shame to devote much (or any) resources to what is overall, a non-threat to the company.  A few hundred hacked versions of Pro are not going to bring the company down.  Failure to grow the base/keep up with changes in the marketplace will.

[-defunct-]

The trick is doing both at the same time. Security by design.

[therockhr]

On 10/22/2021 at 4:00 PM, Dunamivora said:

I disagree here, but only because I have seen software that makes it so difficult to bypass checks that 99.9% of people are shut out and the remaining .1% can be dealt with by other means.

 

As it is, the hacks to bypass Composer licensing are elementary and I'd argue we have not done a good job at ensuring security in the configuration tool.

I’m almost convinced you are a troll from a competing company because I can’t imagine saying things like this on here. 
 

What actual benefits are there for Control4 that they tighten the licensing security of Composer Pro? 

[-defunct-]

29 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I’m almost convinced you are a troll from a competing company because I can’t imagine saying things like this on here. 
 

What actual benefits are there for Control4 that they tighten the licensing security of Composer Pro? 

Preventing unauthorized users from accessing systems that should require authorization and protecting the businesses of our direct customers (dealers).