New Installation

[JSTRONG]

Rates seem fair depending on where you live. Here in nyc, it’s more. 
 

Also, it’ shows access networks WiFi 6, but where is the price or items for this access networks ?

And your posting your dealers Detailed quotes why don’t you also show the dealers name.   

 

[eggzlot]

It’s why I mentioned be specific on your needs.  What audio and where.  What you need with TVs,  HVAC etc and what they need to do

your responses have been vague and that could be why you got two drastically different quotes.  
 

if I told two travel agents my wife and I want a vacation someone could book us for 4 weeks in Europe and another agent could book us for 4 days in Sedona.   Both are nice but night and day difference 

please give details on what you need, what you have, what you need to buy, what wiring is needed etc

[CTMatthew]

If a client put my proposal on a public forum for input I'd return their deposit and end our working relationship. This just isn't a productive way to proceed. If you don't trust your dealer find another one. if you have questions about what you're buying ask your dealer. This is like hiring a personal chef. By nature you're outsourcing some control to someone else. That's built entirely on trust. This action demonstrates a complete lack of trust. 

[tacos]

12 hours ago, eggzlot said:

It’s why I mentioned be specific on your needs.  What audio and where.  What you need with TVs,  HVAC etc and what they need to do

your responses have been vague and that could be why you got two drastically different quotes.  
 

if I told two travel agents my wife and I want a vacation someone could book us for 4 weeks in Europe and another agent could book us for 4 days in Sedona.   Both are nice but night and day difference 

please give details on what you need, what you have, what you need to buy, what wiring is needed etc

I can assure you we had the same convo with each dealer

are you asking me a specific question or just making a point?

 

[tacos]

4 hours ago, CTMatthew said:

If a client put my proposal on a public forum for input I'd return their deposit and end our working relationship. This just isn't a productive way to proceed. If you don't trust your dealer find another one. if you have questions about what you're buying ask your dealer. This is like hiring a personal chef. By nature you're outsourcing some control to someone else. That's built entirely on trust. This action demonstrates a complete lack of trust. 

Disagree totally. so far, it has been very productive 
 

If I had a dealer who couldn’t handle a public review of their proposal, a relationship wouldn’t be considered. In addition, as you have noticed, I’m not putting any one on blast or naming names etc - this is more of a learning exercise

 

 

 

 

 

[eggzlot]

12 hours ago, tacos said:

I can assure you we had the same convo with each dealer

are you asking me a specific question or just making a point?

 

Both

as you haven’t said here what is the end game

just asking people to review paper and prices

could be more helpful if you summarized what you discussed 

those quotes are vastly different so I defer back to my point on communication 

trying to be helpful not argumentative 

Edited March 2, 2022 by eggzlot

[Control4Savant]

13 hours ago, tacos said:

I can assure you we had the same convo with each dealer

are you asking me a specific question or just making a point?

 

Well, it is a valid point considering you had the same conversation with both dealers and got drastically different costs. Your audio design for the first one  is relatively plug and play, the other involves assumed holes and drywall patching…so any additional details or clarification is helpful for us if you want proper feedback.  One dealer is giving you a $20k+ POST installation labor premium on the other so that obviously isn’t just a market adjustment… 

[CTMatthew]

You'll notice a theme in your feedback is imploring you to express what you actually want to accomplish and/or what you think might be wrong with the proposals you've received. 

An example of a useful question might be: "I really value high-quality audio and I want music throughout my home. My dealer has proposed Sonos, but I'm concerned that this system will not live up to my expectations. Am I worrying over nothing or is there another solution that might better meet my needs?"

What you've basically done is cut and paste a restaurant's menu and asked "Whadda ya think, food-wise?"

[JSTRONG]

Eggz, he is for sure looking for someone to tell him that the equipment prices are way out of line. 

As was mentioned, you are way better off building a trusting relationship with an integrator. Go ahead and get a couple of prices, ask them questions, ask for references, look at completed jobs, and make a choice.

 

 

 

 

 

[eggzlot]

1 hour ago, JSTRONG said:

Eggz, he is for sure looking for someone to tell him that the equipment prices are way out of line. 

As was mentioned, you are way better off building a trusting relationship with an integrator. Go ahead and get a couple of prices, ask them questions, ask for references, look at completed jobs, and make a choice.

 

 

 

 

 

Doesn't take much to find MSRP on Sonos, EA controllers, etc.  Maybe not the Networking gear that was spec'd but either way I agree - ask for references, try to see finished installs if possible to get real world demonstrations, etc

1 hour ago, CTMatthew said:

 

What you've basically done is cut and paste a restaurant's menu and asked "Whadda ya think, food-wise?"

Ha - exactly.  Maybe you have an allergy to something, so why would I recommend that off the menu to you.

 

Basically - lots of people here can help, but there is no starting point to help.

[tacos]

5 hours ago, eggzlot said:

Both

as you haven’t said here what is the end game

just asking people to review paper and prices

could be more helpful if you summarized what you discussed 

those quotes are vastly different so I defer back to my point on communication 

trying to be helpful not argumentative 

Goal is posted in one of my earlier posts, but I guess it is non-specific. 

"summarized what you discussed " 
 - goal: automation along with a security system
 - family room requires new TV along with an audio system - the walls are already up so plan was try not to tear everything up, hence combo of plug/play sonos with some minimal in wall speakers so they don't jut out of the walls as aesthetically unpleasing
- cameras external and internal - i left this up to each dealer to decide and recommend
- light controls - left up to the dealer to decide
- wifi system - left up to the dealer to decide
- security system - each dealer recommended an alarm company to connect with 
- additional audio throughout the house - briefly discussed, but again the walls are up, so plan was either plug/play sonos or skip altogether

let me know if you need additional details 

[tacos]

3 hours ago, CTMatthew said:

You'll notice a theme in your feedback is imploring you to express what you actually want to accomplish and/or what you think might be wrong with the proposals you've received. 

An example of a useful question might be: "I really value high-quality audio and I want music throughout my home. My dealer has proposed Sonos, but I'm concerned that this system will not live up to my expectations. Am I worrying over nothing or is there another solution that might better meet my needs?"

What you've basically done is cut and paste a restaurant's menu and asked "Whadda ya think, food-wise?"

Fair enough...I really value ease of life.  My wife values aesthetics. So goal is a reasonable balance between the two

While I like music, I am not an audiophile and my ears likely won't be able to discern the best from the average.  I would ideally want music throughout the house, but I don't want to rip up a brand new house. Hence, focusing mainly on the most used Family Room area. In the future, I am okay with expanding with a plug/play option

LMK if you have any specific questions and I will try my best to answer 

[tacos]

3 hours ago, JSTRONG said:

Eggz, he is for sure looking for someone to tell him that the equipment prices are way out of line. 

As was mentioned, you are way better off building a trusting relationship with an integrator. Go ahead and get a couple of prices, ask them questions, ask for references, look at completed jobs, and make a choice.

 

 

 

 

 

thanks for your help

[eggzlot]

3 hours ago, tacos said:

Goal is posted in one of my earlier posts, but I guess it is non-specific. 

"summarized what you discussed " 
 - goal: automation along with a security system
 - family room requires new TV along with an audio system - the walls are already up so plan was try not to tear everything up, hence combo of plug/play sonos with some minimal in wall speakers so they don't jut out of the walls as aesthetically unpleasing
- cameras external and internal - i left this up to each dealer to decide and recommend
- light controls - left up to the dealer to decide
- wifi system - left up to the dealer to decide
- security system - each dealer recommended an alarm company to connect with 
- additional audio throughout the house - briefly discussed, but again the walls are up, so plan was either plug/play sonos or skip altogether

let me know if you need additional details 

I mean its not easy to compare side by side but one guy is giving you a wired speaker/music quote and the other is wireless.  you said you had walls up, so how they are going to do the wiring neatly and fix any patches or holes?

one guy is quoting 2 chimes, one is quoting 1 chime.

looks like the quantity of lighting is different

one person is quoting you 3 in wall touch screens, the other is quoting you zero

one is quoting some very fancy/articulating tv mount to what appears to be over a fireplace - the other is just quoting a TV with a regular mount

So yeah, they are not apples to apples quotes.  Do you need an articulating tv mount?  dont you want wireless vs wired speakers?  why 2 chimes vs 1 chime on different quotes?  Do you want touch screens or not?  They are very expensive to just "toss in" when comparing two quotes.

Security system > both gave you the same answer, outsource to a local alarm company

Family room > one mentions a physical tv with basic mount, the other quotes a very fancy/elaborate mounting system (not sure if I saw a TV in there)

Cameras > I think their quotes, different equipment, were in the same ballpark

Lights > they both quoted C4, but different quantities and one included the price for engraving the keycaps, the other didn't and that is because one dealer is quoting the "Essentials" line and the other is quoting the regular/fancier line.  link to more of this discussion below

Wifi/Networking > looks like they were about 25% apart - hard to tell what is needed for your house without floor plans, etc

Audio >

Sonos pros - all wireless, easy to add on as you go about living in the house and realizing where you need to add audio.  for a wireless speaker pretty good quality.  has just about every app/service out there

Sonos Cons > can mess up a network if not properly configured, using the C4 app + Sonos has limitations (better user experience controlling it via the sonos app), very costly, they can change their whims and API at any time and decide to block integration 

 

More on the Essentials vs Regular lighting

 

[ejn1]

This type of "check over my bid" thread seems to be getting more common.  Never could quite understand why some dealers take the time to offer detailed back and forth other than being extremely generous.   Maybe a new category should be created called "check my dealer proposal"  and then folks could pay one of the experts in this forum 1-2 hours of their time to audit the proposal for robustness.   On a large several thousand dollar project, this could be money well spent! kind of like hiring a home inspector when buying a new home, eg check my builders work   and then if the person decided to hire the expert for the job, the 1-2 hours could be credited to them.

Just a thought. 

[rocky350z]

On 3/1/2022 at 3:24 PM, CTMatthew said:

If a client put my proposal on a public forum for input I'd return their deposit and end our working relationship. This just isn't a productive way to proceed. If you don't trust your dealer find another one. if you have questions about what you're buying ask your dealer. This is like hiring a personal chef. By nature you're outsourcing some control to someone else. That's built entirely on trust. This action demonstrates a complete lack of trust. 

I look at this completely the opposite.  Maybe he should have left out the pricing, I could agree with that. BUTTTTT, why would you not want your client to make a educated decision.  This sounds like a completely controlling dealer relationship, if you would not want your client to understand options.  As in you do it my way or you dead to me. 

[tacos]

21 minutes ago, rocky350z said:

I look at this completely the opposite.  Maybe he should have left out the pricing, I could agree with that. BUTTTTT, why would you not want your client to make a educated decision.  This sounds like a completely controlling dealer relationship, if you would not want your client to understand options.  As in you do it my way or you dead to me. 

 
the "do it my way or highway" mindset has to do with incentives and profiteering 

I wonder how his current/prospective clients would react knowing this ridiculous mindset

[ekohn00]

21 minutes ago, rocky350z said:

I look at this completely the opposite.  Maybe he should have left out the pricing, I could agree with that. BUTTTTT, why would you not want your client to make a educated decision.  This sounds like a completely controlling dealer relationship, if you would not want your client to understand options.  As in you do it my way or you dead to me. 

Great points......

Any dealer would recommend you check their references..... but their references are "THEIR" references. Why not ask as many people you can what they think?

And as for posting pricing..it's only a problem if they're inflated, or if you might be under an NDA.

 

[ejn1]

I'm not a dealer but cant understand why folks want to sit on a forum and do bid reviews and bid audits for free?  

[tacos]

Could it be that…maybe o gosh I don’t know … they just like helping people ? 
 

I am part of multiple other specialty forums where I just, you know, try to help people lol 

 

it also creates stickiness and generates income / reputation for the forum and maybe even dealers if they can get a little business here 

[eggzlot]

1 minute ago, tacos said:

Could it be that…maybe o gosh I don’t know … they just like helping people ? 
 

I am part of multiple other specialty forums where I just, you know, try to help people lol 

 

it also creates stickiness and generates income / reputation for the forum and maybe even dealers if they can get a little business here 

Well I did provide some audit feedback

and I’m not a dealer and have no financial stake in the game 

[tacos]

much appreciated- thank you. 
 

I am working through your details / suggestions and will respond shortly 

 

[ejn1]

23 minutes ago, tacos said:

Could it be that…maybe o gosh I don’t know … they just like helping people ? 
 

I am part of multiple other specialty forums where I just, you know, try to help people lol 

 

it also creates stickiness and generates income / reputation for the forum and maybe even dealers if they can get a little business here 

there is a lot of help on this forum and most of the time it has broader reach than just someone's personal dealer audit of a bid sheet (hence a forum).  If folks want to do that then great... I was just thinking outside the box that maybe this should be like a valuable service... eg, someone about to spend $20k on an installation and gets paid consultation on it.   Makes a lot of sense to me.   Like I said, try to hire someone to come and audit your home before you close on a house and do it gratis? 

[Control4Savant]

1 hour ago, tacos said:

Could it be that…maybe o gosh I don’t know … they just like helping people ? 
 

I am part of multiple other specialty forums where I just, you know, try to help people lol 

 

it also creates stickiness and generates income / reputation for the forum and maybe even dealers if they can get a little business here 

I am a dealer and I don’t even lead with Control4 anymore and I am on here for pretty much for the benefit of the industry from both ends. 

[ekohn00]

12 hours ago, ejn1 said:

I'm not a dealer but cant understand why folks want to sit on a forum and do bid reviews and bid audits for free?  

I'm not a dealer either, I mostly read the forum looking for new ideas for my system. I do admit I spend more time reading stupid stuff vs getting ideas, but it's really not that time consuming.

Sometimes I come across things that are an easy answer for me, but may others might thing people should charge to get that. 

Personally I think a good dealer should be the person doing the audit, as part of a system design. The audit should also include working with the homeowner to identify what they need or want. It's also nice to have options. The big problem might be finding the good dealer and comparing bids.