Snap VS JoshAI

[therockhr]

Didnt know there were so many Josh.ai simps here. The product reminds me of the old "Pimp My Ride" show that came on MTV. "We heard you like control systems, so we decided to put a control system on TOP of your control system!".

The biggest selling point of control4 is supposed to be a single pane of glass; all your devices under 1 app. Now some dealers are saying that its better to use 2 different apps for control? it would also be 1 thing to have some DIY system like home assistant on top so that a user can play around on their own but to have 2 expensive pro installed systems doing similar things is crazy.

Now if you are selling josh.ai without a control system like Crestron or Control4 then that is a different story. I don't think josh.ai on its own could compare to something like C4 but at least it makes sense.

[JSTRONG]

therockhr, seems like you are not considering that people with Control4 may want a reliable (and private) way to control their c4 system using voice command.

Sure the others do it, but at the cost of privacy and acceptance of it not working 100% of the time

 

[Topspin14m]

Didnt know there were so many Josh.ai simps here. The product reminds me of the old "Pimp My Ride" show that came on MTV. "We heard you like control systems, so we decided to put a control system on TOP of your control system!".
The biggest selling point of control4 is supposed to be a single pane of glass; all your devices under 1 app. Now some dealers are saying that its better to use 2 different apps for control? it would also be 1 thing to have some DIY system like home assistant on top so that a user can play around on their own but to have 2 expensive pro installed systems doing similar things is crazy.
Now if you are selling josh.ai without a control system like Crestron or Control4 then that is a different story. I don't think josh.ai on its own could compare to something like C4 but at least it makes sense.

Other than the fact that this is spamming my notifications, I don’t have a dog in this fight. That said, I think you’ve got it wrong. The strength of C4 is its ability to integrate with a lot of different third party systems. Josh.ai integrates voice control and, yes, is a control system. But Lutron is also a control system, Sonos is a control system, Roon is also a control system, Nest is also a control system, etc. More limited than Josh.ai in some respects but they are all control systems with their own apps and control hardware. With home automation you are constantly layering control systems on top of each other and integrating them.


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[therockhr]

4 minutes ago, JSTRONG said:

therockhr, seems like you are not considering that people with Control4 may want a reliable (and private) way to control their c4 system using voice command.

Sure the others do it, but at the cost of privacy and acceptance of it not working 100% of the time

 

I dont think voice control should be its own product. it should be a feature of a control system.

[therockhr]

4 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

Other than the fact that this is spamming my notifications, I don’t have a dog in this fight. That said, I think you’ve got it wrong. The strength of C4 is its ability to integrate with a lot of different third party systems. Josh.ai integrates voice control and, yes, is a control system. But Lutron is also a control system, Roon is also a control system, Nest is also a control system, etc. More limited than Josh.ai in some respects but they are all control systems with their own apps and control hardware. With home automation you are constantly layering control systems on top of each other and integrating them.


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outside of the voice control (which can be done with alexa and control4) why would someone install josh.ai on top of control4? while yes lutron and nest could be considered control systems they are used to control something specific. josh and control4 are supposed to both be that top layer that controls all. it would be like layering crestron on top of control4.

[Time2Jet]

I dont think voice control should be its own product. it should be a feature of a control system.

Voice is not a native feature of Control4 today. Josh.ai is “the” voice control for Control4 and Crestron. In fact, Crestron Touchpanel mics serve as endpoints for Josh.

The suit brought by Snap put the brakes on the rollout of Josh as its total voice control. Until the suit, Josh was sold on Control4’s site and then during the consolidation (having nothing to do with Josh) Snap’s site. It was officially the go to for Control4 voice control.


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[Topspin14m]

outside of the voice control (which can be done with alexa and control4) why would someone install josh.ai on top of control4? while yes lutron and nest could be considered control systems they are used to control something specific. josh and control4 are supposed to both be that top layer that controls all. it would be like layering crestron on top of control4.

Why would you install Lutron instead of C4 lighting? Why would you install Nest over C4 thermostats? Why install Sonos over C4 music? To add features you prefer over the C4 product.

What you are really arguing is that C4 should offer a voice product. That’s a valid point - but they aren’t going to do that unless they buy something like Josh.ai. The cost of developing a brand new voice system is likely prohibitive. So if you want voice your options are Alexa and Josh.ai. A lot of people prefer Josh.ai. To say it’s a scam makes you sound silly.


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[therockhr]

1 minute ago, Topspin14m said:

Why would you install Lutron instead of C4 lighting? Why would you install Nest over C4 thermostats? Why install Sonos over C4 music? To add features you prefer over the C4 product.

What you are really arguing is that C4 should offer a voice product. That’s a valid point - but they aren’t going to do that unless they buy something like Josh.ai. The cost of developing a brand new voice system is likely prohibitive. So if you want voice your options are Alexa and Josh.ai. A lot of people prefer Josh.ai. To say it’s a scam makes you sound silly.


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Scam is the wrong word I guess because it does work (i assume never used it or had a need). I think its a wildly expensive product for what it does and the licensing model it has is a joke. if it truly was to just provide voice control for crestron and control4 it should be a product that you buy and thats it. a subscription model for voice control makes it feel suspicious as is the way they are trying to backdoor their way into being a control system.

[JSTRONG]

2 minutes ago, therockhr said:

outside of the voice control (which can be done with alexa and control4) why would someone install josh.ai on top of control4? while yes lutron and nest could be considered control systems they are used to control something specific. josh and control4 are supposed to both be that top layer that controls all. it would be like layering crestron on top of control4.

Many reasons why you would use Josh as your voice control on top of a Control system. This is just a brief example that I can think of now:

Josh is and has always been designed as an automation system. It is not a personal assistant first and foremost with an option to turn your lights on. 

Simple integration with other control systems like Control4 and Crestron

Natural language processing (speak to him like your talking to a person) (even recognizes slang terms) and people with accents

Compound commands executed flawlessly. 

Sleek hidden Nano' microphones that can be painted over or installed in a Lutron Keypad

Room awareness. You do not have to say the room since Josh knows what room you want to control

 

[Topspin14m]

Scam is the wrong word I guess because it does work (i assume never used it or had a need). I think its a wildly expensive product for what it does and the licensing model it has is a joke. if it truly was to just provide voice control for crestron and control4 it should be a product that you buy and thats it. a subscription model for voice control makes it feel suspicious as is the way they are trying to backdoor their way into being a control system.

The issue I have with it is that the market is so immature. Look at Sonos and Google Assistant. They started suing each other


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[therockhr]

7 minutes ago, JSTRONG said:

Many reasons why you would use Josh as your voice control on top of a Control system. This is just a brief example that I can think of now:

Josh is and has always been designed as an automation system. It is not a personal assistant first and foremost with an option to turn your lights on. 

Simple integration with other control systems like Control4 and Crestron

Natural language processing (speak to him like your talking to a person) (even recognizes slang terms) and people with accents

Compound commands executed flawlessly. 

Sleek hidden Nano' microphones that can be painted over or installed in a Lutron Keypad

Room awareness. You do not have to say the room since Josh knows what room you want to control

 

I guess what turns me off is that you are paying for the power of a home automation system but really only using the voice features. as i mentioned earlier, if it had the full feature set to replace a control4 or crestron then i could see installing it but paying all that money on top of what it costs for control4 just seems wild.

but as others have mentioned im sure there are people who dont care and will pay whatever.

[Topspin14m]

I guess what turns me off is that you are paying for the power of a home automation system but really only using the voice features. as i mentioned earlier, if it had the full feature set to replace a control4 or crestron then i could see installing it but paying all that money on top of what it costs for control4 just seems wild.
but as others have mentioned im sure there are people who dont care and will pay whatever.

The problem I have is that the whole voice market is immature. Look at Sonos and Google Assistant. They had integration, got embroiled in litigation, and Google Assistant is no longer available on new Sonos products. Imagine you paid $5000 for Google Assistant and you are a Sonos user. That would stink. That’s the problem I have with Josh.ai, which is a way smaller company than Google. It’s a huge gamble to invest that much in their system when Control4 or Crestron could eliminate the integration whenever they want or Josh.ai could go bankrupt or whatever. Then you own a very expensive set of bricks.

But I believe it’s a great product otherwise - you just have to bet on the current arrangement holding. I wish I could get myself mentally past the above because I want Josh.ai, but I’m fearful.


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[Control4Savant]

23 minutes ago, therockhr said:

I guess what turns me off is that you are paying for the power of a home automation system but really only using the voice features. as i mentioned earlier, if it had the full feature set to replace a control4 or crestron then i could see installing it but paying all that money on top of what it costs for control4 just seems wild.

but as others have mentioned im sure there are people who dont care and will pay whatever.

Feel free to be deliberately ignorant and repeat yourself. Im out. 

[therockhr]

1 minute ago, Control4Savant said:

Feel free to be deliberately ignorant and repeat yourself. Im out. 

"i'm out" says the guy who responds to every post.

[JSTRONG]

2 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

But I believe it’s a great product otherwise - you just have to bet on the current arrangement holding.
 

Yep, just like we hope Lutron continues to work with Control4. It could be said for any integration really. It would be in everyone's best interest to not break the integration partners and I believe the powers that be feel that way also

[therockhr]

4 minutes ago, JSTRONG said:

Yep, just like we hope Lutron continues to work with Control4. It could be said for any integration really. It would be in everyone's best interest to not break the integration partners and I believe the powers that be feel that way also

This is true but the difference is that companies like Lutron and Sonos arent interested in being full home automation systems. Sonos doesnt want to eventually be able to open your garage door. Josh is only using Control4 (or Crestron for that matter) because they dont have the ability natively right now to do all the home automation tasks they want.

My guess is Control4 drops the "official" support at some point. It makes no sense to have your customers primary point of interaction being a 3rd party application. If Josh was still just voice then im sure they would be cool but once they got an app and now a handheld remote it makes no business sense to allow that integration (they may still allow it but no way you would promote it).

[Topspin14m]

Yep, just like we hope Lutron continues to work with Control4. It could be said for any integration really. It would be in everyone's best interest to not break the integration partners and I believe the powers that be feel that way also

Yeah my thinking is that the Lutron integration is a much longer standing and robust one between two large companies industries that have already undergone substantial consolidation. Some partnerships are much more stable than others. Voice is so new that everyone still seems to be figuring out who they want to partner with and the arrangements of those partnerships. That puts the consumer is a precarious spot.


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[Topspin14m]

This is true but the difference is that companies like Lutron and Sonos arent interested in being full home automation systems. Sonos doesnt want to eventually be able to open your garage door. Josh is only using Control4 (or Crestron for that matter) because they dont have the ability natively right now to do all the home automation tasks they want.
My guess is Control4 drops the "official" support at some point. It makes no sense to have your customers primary point of interaction being a 3rd party application. If Josh was still just voice then im sure they would be cool but once they got an app and now a handheld remote it makes no business sense to allow that integration (they may still allow it but no way you would promote it).

This point is a good one. I think the main differences have been user interface and back end integration. C4 was always hardware control. Josh.ai is voice control. Now Josh.ai wants to be in the hardware control space and that seems to have spurred the conflict between the two companies.


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[Cyknight]

43 minutes ago, therockhr said:

but paying all that money

As opposed to paying with your data? That alone is the reason why many people SHOULD be willing to pay for it (if they want voice control). Those that CAN pay it likely actually have more reason TO pay it.

To me personally, voice control is just not important (and I was an early on enthusiast) now that I've had a chance to try it (and I've tried the all): it's gimmicky at the best of times with the best of systems.

Maybe true local AI can make a difference, but then again, you'd have to trust that too...

[BY96]

I am someone without unlimited resources, who has a fully integrated Control4 system, and has seriously considered adding Josh.ai. Right now, I have Alexa and use it for a couple of things, but I don't use it enough to actually remember the best verbal commands to get done what I need. Even with my regular few commands, I sometimes get the wording wrong. I am drawn to Josh.ai out of the hope that I don't have to try and remember the commands but can speak naturally to it. If that is the case, as most seem to say, then I think I would use voice command a lot more. Personally, I really wish Control4 had native voice control, even if not quit at the level of Josh.ai, and I did not have to add a different control system to get that level of voice commands, but at least for the foreseeable future, Josh.ai is the only real option, as Alexa and Google have significant limitations. 

But, I fear spending a lot of money only to end up rarely using it. I have installed C4 keypads throughout the house to control music, have a lot of lighting on timers, and use remotes for all watch activities. 

[Cyknight]

1 minute ago, BY96 said:

but can speak naturally to it

Much more so for sure. It's far from flawless, but much better.

[GregCAMS]

that's the nice part about the platforms.  Different use cases for different households.  We had 4 T3's in the house from approx 2017 - early 2020 and maybe used them 1-2 per week.  When we switched to using Josh in place of the T3's we use them 40-50 times per day for anything from morning routines (that vary on time of day so not scheduled in) to discrete commands when my hands are full.  My wife uses it a lot to open close shades, turn on music and the such for her in-home daycare without having to find a remote or get to a wall with a touchscreen.  For us, Josh is a discretionary spend but also has allowed us to get more value out of not only the Control4 devices we already had (i.e. lights, A/V, etc.) but saved on programming like Lutron shades where they just worked from the jump without having the integrator program them in.  For the most part we use it as a 'layered' device in the same approach that Crestron has chosen to use it with their integration options with and making their OS Home app available on  the AVA remote. 

Having used the system at this volume for 4 years provides enough of a sample size for our use case to recommend it to those that have a similar interest.  If not sold on it and haven't used it before, that's all good too.  And as far as price it fits our budget as we prioritize items like this discretionary spend over other items (cars, clothing, etc.) that others may value as good use of discretionary.  We were considering Alexa and Google originally and I went to the Origin Acoustics HQ here in Vegas to play around with it in 2018.  It was super clunky at the time and slow so it was a non-starter at the time.  Voice is viewed as a complimentary element on our end and today the Josh platform provides a much enhanced home user experience for us for the reasons stated above and the very easy custom scene creation, editing and the like in the portal.  That part alone has saved us thousands of dollars in creating custom scenes, triggers, etc and far superior to the When>Then C4 functionality.  So I see these, in present state, as complimentary products if you have this or a related use case that fits your lifestyle.  For us it's been fantastic as a paying customer for nearly 4 years of use.

If we were to move/build a new home, it would be a strong potential to go to just Josh given the ease of use, deployment, hardware costs, and amount of daily use we get from the system.  The reliability has also been quite good on the items we've compared on a case by case function such as using it to raise/lower shades versus the raise and lower on a C4 keypad, the 2N/DS Mini notifications, door locking and relays, etc.  I am not sure it's quite there for a large installation (not an integrator so this is conjecture), but from what I have used and seen at other smaller installations (i.e. condos, townhomes) it works very well and reliably in my friends' and colleagues' properties as a standalone.

[chicagod]

On 8/28/2023 at 12:52 AM, GregCAMS said:

I do intercom commands using Josh all the time.  it can send commands you audibly state throughout all speakers in the house on demand.  I also have the 2N (control4 branded) door station have notifications pop-up on phone and answer and unlock thru Josh.  Have same on C4 as well.  For weather I get weather updates when I ask thru the phone, micro, nano's etc every day.

Greg, What command do you give to Josh to send C4 intercom announcements?

[msgreenf]

31 minutes ago, chicagod said:

Greg, What command do you give to Josh to send C4 intercom announcements?

You actually just highlighted the problem with voice control... command discovery 

[GregCAMS]

I give a voice command to tell the guest it's time for Dinner, movie, going swimming ,whatever. the situation calls for.  The broadcast goes thru every Josh Micro and every speaker in the house where I have a Nano which covers all zones that I have it installed throughout the house.  It's used when we have family/friends in town and not a daily element.  it's not a problem for me or needed any discovery.