Snap VS JoshAI

[Dueport]

19 minutes ago, msgreenf said:

Personally I just don't find voice to be a compelling ux

I can see that - my wife doesn’t care for it either - I think it has its place but less useful than a TS or keypad or remote

[Topspin14m]

When I had it really dialed in at my last house, it was basically the only way we controlled our lights. I didn’t touch a light switch for like 6 months.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GregCAMS]

I have to respectfully disagree.  The voice is used in our home to run scenes 25-30 times per day.  Before we seldomly used the equivalent on the touchscreens.  And we didn't tie them into keypads because that created a lack of change/flexibility without using Composer HE or our dealer.  It is used here for scenes, shades, locking doors, playing specific playlists, fans, pool controls, Kaleidescape movies and the like.  For dinner, it comes in clutch to prep the space while in the middle of cooking and making adjustments.  

May be the outlier but it is used (Josh in conjunction with C4) nearly 200-300 times per month in doing one-time tasks, scenes, and other actions.  In addition, as an end user the ability to set, modify, update scenes have a much better experience than the When>Then alternative.

Edited August 25, 2023 by gregheard
grammatical

[RyanE]

23 minutes ago, gregheard said:

I have to respectfully disagree.  The voice is used in our home to run scenes 25-30 times per day.

This is an opinion, as valid as those who don't like using voice.

I'm personally in the "I don't talk to my house" camp.

Neither is right, neither is wrong, as they're just opinions or anecdotes.

The best thing is having the ability to do whatever you like best.

RyanE

 

[RyanE]

46 minutes ago, Topspin14m said:

When I had it really dialed in at my last house, it was basically the only way we controlled our lights. I didn’t touch a light switch for like 6 months.

I don't typically touch light switches at my house, without voice.

They come on based on occupancy, and are shut off automatically, and/or with a single press on a keypad.

I'm glad you have a solution you like.

RyanE

[Topspin14m]

14 minutes ago, RyanE said:

I don't typically touch light switches at my house, without voice.

They come on based on occupancy, and are shut off automatically, and/or with a single press on a keypad.

I'm glad you have a solution you like.

RyanE

IMO - Keypad isn't really any easier than a light switch, except you have all your switches in a room in one place, which is nice.  

The occupancy thing doesn't work for me personally with young kids who are constantly running everywhere.  I need more control than that.

I'd actually love to have Josh and I should be the absolute target market for it as someone who used Alexa a ton, but didn't find Alexa to have enough integration.  However, the price and, more importantly, my fear that the company will disappear have been what have kept me from it.  If I'm investing $10K in tech, I have to know I can use it for a decent amount of time.  If a larger company bought Josh, I'd probably buy it right away.

[RyanE]

2 hours ago, Topspin14m said:

IMO - Keypad isn't really any easier than a light switch, except you have all your switches in a room in one place, which is nice.

My keypads are set up with one button per floor, so I can easily see if any lights are left on, and turn them all off at once, which is quite a bit easier than finding each one and/or going to each one...

But yeah, I agree, it's possibly not as convenient as voice in some situations.

In my case, I'd rather press a button with a LED lit up on it than to issue a voice utterance at midnight or later when my wife and kids are probably asleep in the same or next room.

RyanE

[msgreenf]

7 hours ago, gregheard said:

I have to respectfully disagree.  The voice is used in our home to run scenes 25-30 times per day.  Before we seldomly used the equivalent on the touchscreens.  And we didn't tie them into keypads because that created a lack of change/flexibility without using Composer HE or our dealer.  It is used here for scenes, shades, locking doors, playing specific playlists, fans, pool controls, Kaleidescape movies and the like.  For dinner, it comes in clutch to prep the space while in the middle of cooking and making adjustments.  

May be the outlier but it is used (Josh in conjunction with C4) nearly 200-300 times per month in doing one-time tasks, scenes, and other actions.  In addition, as an end user the ability to set, modify, update scenes have a much better experience than the When>Then alternative.

it's called an opinion for a reason...

[Topspin14m]

6 hours ago, RyanE said:

My keypads are set up with one button per floor, so I can easily see if any lights are left on, and turn them all off at once, which is quite a bit easier than finding each one and/or going to each one...

But yeah, I agree, it's possibly not as convenient as voice in some situations.

In my case, I'd rather press a button with a LED lit up on it than to issue a voice utterance at midnight or later when my wife and kids are probably asleep in the same or next room.

RyanE

True but just because you can use voice doesn't mean you always must do so!  I like that idea--In addition to having a group for each floor, do you also have the lights separately for each room?

[ChzBurger]

I imagine that new and expanded voice capabilities will emerge sooner than later. Voice is in the early stage of commoditization path. See: Home Assistant's new voice assistant. https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2023/07/20/year-of-the-voice-chapter-3/. I'd personally like to see more Apple integration, but realize that Apple is not an easy company to partner with and at some levels may also be a competitor.

[eggzlot]

I am in the "dont get voice" camp.  I have enough automations set up with sensors, programming off commands (turning on the TV at a certain time of day reflects the overhead lighting), 1 button to turn off the house, etc...

There are a few small use cases where I think voice is fine (in my house) yet Alexa is too clunky.  To my family, it wouldn't be worth the investment in Josh for 1-2 odds and ends that we have covered with remotes, keypads and T3/T4 anyways...If C4 "Snap'd" them up (pun intended) and it was just a pure hardware investment I'd consider it, but not a reoccurring fee - I got way too many of those so speaking to a light switch isn't going to move the needle

[Time2Jet]

Personally I just don't find voice to be a compelling ux

We normally agree on things, but I beg to differ here. In my opinion, true automation should lean toward less user interaction and more intuitiveness. This isn’t to say that Voice integration is “intuitive” per se, but certainly removes some of the physical actions required to fire a “then” scene (scene being a very common Josh term).

If you look back through some of my old posts I have always felt that the future of automation was voice, motion, occupancy and fencing (since they haven’t figured out how to read our minds… yet) via programming. When we walk into a room at a certain time or day, maybe certain lighting fires at one time, a different brightness fires at another time and potentially no lighting fires at another time. When someone is sensed in a room for a predefined period of time, maybe the temperature is adjusted differently. When you leave your home, certain “scenes” may fire and others when you arrive home. When another person leaves the home or arrives home, maybe any of those actions are different arrive/leave scenes depending upon if anyone is still or already in the home. Maybe a scene is fired when a vehicle arrives in your drive and maybe that’s different depending on which vehicle or what time it arrives. Maybe an event fires when someone enters a specific area of your home or property. And amongst many many other automations, maybe scenes fire based on time of day, day of the week, month or year. Could also be when you leave the home and rain is in the forecast, you’re sent a notification telling you not to forget your umbrella. The possibilities are endless.

Voice control, eliminates the need to rise out of your chair or bed, walk across the home or room and other overt physical actions to fire a device or scene or to check a status. In the most simple of benefits, Voice eliminates the need for fumbling for a remote or getting up to use a touchscreen.

Control4 is an automation platform and not simply a AV/lighting Remote Control system. We strive to make our home smart and work the way we live.

Josh integration is leaps and bounds above any of the other voice control systems in every way. Integrating Josh with Control4 creates a much more powerful home automation system than either as a standalone. Anything you can do in Control4 can be done via a voice command with Josh using natural language tailored specifically to you. “Hey Josh, who is at the front door” will show you the front door camera (Yea, even a Chime) on the display in the room you are in at that time. And the room level scenes feature allows you to say “Hey Josh, turn on the lamps” (or turn on the ceiling lights, turn off the TV, and turn on the music for example) and Josh knows to turn on the lamps only in the room you are in. If you call the foyer “foyer” and your kids call it the “entry” it doesn’t care. You can say “hey Josh, it’s a little warm in here” and Josh will lower the TStat. It also handles compound commands “do this, this and this” and it accommodates. When I leave carrying something to my car I can say “hey Josh I’m leaving, lock the door in 1 minute” so it gives me time to clear the door before it locks and fires my away scene”. And of course the most advertised feature is that you can walk into a room and say “hey Josh, turn on the lamps, close the shades and let’s watch S1E3 of Better Call Saul. Josh will deep dive programming for you. You can ask for a movie and it will find options for you. (During setup the Josh driver for Control4 finds all of your steaming services and you can prioritize both where it looks first for video or music).

Okay, that was a lot… but it’s my opinion that voice control is very important and Josh is the gold standard in that space, nothing else is remotely close today. It pains me as an end user and dealer for both products that they didn’t form a better alliance and they are at odds legally right now. It is in the best interests of both to resolve this quickly and to the benefit of each.

[msgreenf]

Thanks to @JSTRONG I am going to try out Josh and I will report back my opinion after!

[RAV]

Voice will be the UI when the pocket screen is no longer an object of our affection.

Over-simplifying people into "glued to screen", and it's a "communicator".

The glued to screen who live through their phone on social media, music, streaming, email, text, and all their apps, will not look beyond it for other means of world interaction.
Why do I want anything else? Everything I need is right here, in my hand, every waking moment. This is my world.

On the other hand, people who aren't so, are more living in the moment and voice becomes a 'less techy' way to interact with their environment. No touchscreen (wall phone), not keypad (button phone), not remote (wireless button phone). They also tend to be less control detailed. I want classic rock, set the lighting to chill. Not the extra thoughts of which artist or song, or what do I need to achieve chill, let me spend 10 minutes getting that just right, opps lost that mood moment.

And with AI being drawn into voice now, it's a simpler place to get the answers to questions; no typing, searching, clicking, opening closing, etc.
Again, less screen time. I spend all day at work staring at a screen, typing, mousing.

Addressing time2jet's comment regarding the automated house, reacting based on time, location etc. You're right. But who's going to program that? That's a lot of personal information for a programmer to learn from a client who took 10 minutes choosing white or black speakers, and the ideal client isn't interested in spending his own hours to figure it out. And their spouse is different from them, so double that, and they may have little interest, I just want to flip a switch. For the few though, their is added satisfaction is defining that perfect moment. So ultimately it will come with a learning AI.

I always laugh when Piccard has to ask for Earl Gray Tea Hot. Really? He can self destruct the ship with a voice command, but has to go all Alexa for a drink. "Tea" that's all, fix the programming. Now granted maybe other times he wants it different, but not that we see, should have a default. (Or perhaps Star Trek is incorporating the Dune doctrine of non thinking machines, nerd but not super nerd).

Josh AI isn't there yet, but it's the closest.
Watch your client, glued to their phone, it's a hard sell.

[Cyknight]

1 hour ago, time2jet said:

true automation should lean toward less user interaction and more intuitiveness

True automation means you don't do ANYTHING - including saying what you want, because what you want/need is done for you.

Voice control is still CONTROL.

 

That's not a knock on voice control as such mind you.

 

 

[cnicholson]

21 minutes ago, Cyknight said:

Voice control is still CONTROL.

For sure.  As Elon likes to say "All user input is error."   But, OTOH, you can only automate default preferences/behaviors (including default actions based on (non-voice) sensors).  You can't automate based on dynamic preferences.  Sometimes you want the lights at a level different than the automated default.  If you find yourself consistently overriding defaults (with voice or with clicks), you should update the automations.  But you can't automate everything and using voice to over-ride is often faster and more convenient than walking to T4 or KP or pulling out your phone.   I'm never going to rip out my KPs or delete the C4 app, but having voice as an option seems to me unambiguously good (cost aside).   Whether having this alternate mode of control is "worth it," is a personal preference.

Ironically, in my limited implementation of voice controls, the biggest "problem" is setting expectations with family and guests about the scope and depth of voice controls.   You demo some things you can do and they think they can use voice for EVERYTHING, creating frustration.  

 

[RyanE]

I appreciate those vocal for the voice control side, and realize that I've probably discounted it's general usefulness for control.

I think if Josh were not 3rd party, I'd likely use it somewhat more than I've used Alexa, although it's set up.

RyanE

[cnicholson]

Another issue with voice control is location awareness.  Without this, voice becomes a lot less useful.  "Open the shades" or "dim the lights" becomes pretty useless if you have to say "dim the lights in [insert name of room that people don't know the name of]"   Josh's solution is "no problem, buy 20 Nanos and pre-wire before you build your house!," but, if you're using a Halo button (or my dream of "always listening when in cradle"), C4 always knows the room you're in because YOU TELL IT what room you want to control ahead of time--- and yet you can still move it around to different rooms (no drywall work required for clean deployment).  I think this is a key point.

[Time2Jet]

Voice will be the UI when the pocket screen is no longer an object of our affection.
Over-simplifying people into "glued to screen", and it's a "communicator".
The glued to screen who live through their phone on social media, music, streaming, email, text, and all their apps, will not look beyond it for other means of world interaction.
Why do I want anything else? Everything I need is right here, in my hand, every waking moment. This is my world.
On the other hand, people who aren't so, are more living in the moment and voice becomes a 'less techy' way to interact with their environment. No touchscreen (wall phone), not keypad (button phone), not remote (wireless button phone). They also tend to be less control detailed. I want classic rock, set the lighting to chill. Not the extra thoughts of which artist or song, or what do I need to achieve chill, let me spend 10 minutes getting that just right, opps lost that mood moment.
And with AI being drawn into voice now, it's a simpler place to get the answers to questions; no typing, searching, clicking, opening closing, etc.
Again, less screen time. I spend all day at work staring at a screen, typing, mousing.
Addressing time2jet's comment regarding the automated house, reacting based on time, location etc. You're right. But who's going to program that? That's a lot of personal information for a programmer to learn from a client who took 10 minutes choosing white or black speakers, and the ideal client isn't interested in spending his own hours to figure it out. And their spouse is different from them, so double that, and they may have little interest, I just want to flip a switch. For the few though, their is added satisfaction is defining that perfect moment. So ultimately it will come with a learning AI.
I always laugh when Piccard has to ask for Earl Gray Tea Hot. Really? He can self destruct the ship with a voice command, but has to go all Alexa for a drink. "Tea" that's all, fix the programming. Now granted maybe other times he wants it different, but not that we see, should have a default. (Or perhaps Star Trek is incorporating the Dune doctrine of non thinking machines, nerd but not super nerd).
Josh AI isn't there yet, but it's the closest.
Watch your client, glued to their phone, it's a hard sell.

I rarely ever use my phone other than IA when I’m away from home. I find it more cumbersome when I can use my voice or a remote. And this is coming from a guy that rarely looks away from his phone during the day at work.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Time2Jet]

On 8/25/2023 at 12:40 PM, cnicholson said:

Another issue with voice control is location awareness.  Without this, voice becomes a lot less useful.  "Open the shades" or "dim the lights" becomes pretty useless if you have to say "dim the lights in [insert name of room that people don't know the name of]"   Josh's solution is "no problem, buy 20 Nanos and pre-wire before you build your house!," but, if you're using a Halo button (or my dream of "always listening when in cradle"), C4 always knows the room you're in because YOU TELL IT what room you want to control ahead of time--- and yet you can still move it around to different rooms (no drywall work required for clean deployment).  I think this is a key point.

Josh Micro rings that bell and it can be plugged in and sit on a table like Alexa or via PoE*.  Room awareness is one of Josh's greatest attributes.  (*Micros can also be wall mounted and even recess mounted with a WallSmart)

[cnicholson]

2 hours ago, time2jet said:

Josh Micro rings that bell and it can be plugged in and sit on a table like Alexa

Josh is the gold standard, but it costs gold to get that standard.    I know I'll never achieve Josh-level functionality or integration, but my approach was to buy a dozen HomePod minis on clearance for $79/each.  They're small and unobtrusive enough to get wife approval, but imperfect solution at best.  As an aside, believe it or not, they kind of rock the house and sound decent when they're all playing music at same time!

I use DTI Siri driver to get my room awareness.

[nxr]

Although sounds like the comands are easier, I like Alexa in that it allows news and weather updates, intercom and announcements etc, which I understand Josh can’t do. 

[GregCAMS]

I do intercom commands using Josh all the time.  it can send commands you audibly state throughout all speakers in the house on demand.  I also have the 2N (control4 branded) door station have notifications pop-up on phone and answer and unlock thru Josh.  Have same on C4 as well.  For weather I get weather updates when I ask thru the phone, micro, nano's etc every day.

[Ilushka85]

9 hours ago, gregheard said:

I do intercom commands using Josh all the time.  it can send commands you audibly state throughout all speakers in the house on demand.  I also have the 2N (control4 branded) door station have notifications pop-up on phone and answer and unlock thru Josh.  Have same on C4 as well.  For weather I get weather updates when I ask thru the phone, micro, nano's etc every day.

 

How did you get calls / alerts on josh from the doorstations?  I see the videos and access to relays but calls dont come into josh... they do to c4.

[GregCAMS]

23 minutes ago, Ilushka85 said:

 

How did you get calls / alerts on josh from the doorstations?  I see the videos and access to relays but calls dont come into josh... they do to c4.

I didn't have to do any setup.  Once the DS2 was connected to my network, Josh recognized it and showed it as Online in my Josh.ai Portal.  From there that was it on that side.  Then in the Josh iOS app there is a Push notifications option and turned it on to give me notifications upon Doorbell pressed.  It has options for sound detected and motion but those are ones I chose not to enable