Does it take a lot of extra time to wire C4 switches?

[Bryan Phelps]

We’re remodeling our home and having an electrician replace our regular light switches with C4 switches - combination of dimmers, aux, configurable keypads, etc.

 

He’s saying that wiring them is a lot more work than a normal light switch so he needs to charge extra.

 

Our integrator says it’s barely more work, if any.

 

Who’s right?

 

 

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[dcovach]

10 minutes ago, Bryan Phelps said:

 

We’re remodeling our home and having an electrician replace our regular light switches with C4 switches - combination of dimmers, aux, configurable keypads, etc.

 

He’s saying that wiring them is a lot more work than a normal light switch so he needs to charge extra.

 

Our integrator says it’s barely more work, if any.

 

Who’s right?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

They're deeper so it can be tricky to fit them in standard or multi gang switch boxes when there's a bit of extra wire inside already.  Deeper boxes make it easier.  3 way wiring with C4 is tricky as it isn't wired like traditional 3-way.  This stumps almost everybody in the industry until they've done a few.

[Matt Lowe]

13 minutes ago, dcovach said:

They're deeper so it can be tricky to fit them in standard or multi gang switch boxes when there's a bit of extra wire inside already.  Deeper boxes make it easier.  3 way wiring with C4 is tricky as it isn't wired like traditional 3-way.  This stumps almost everybody in the industry until they've done a few.

second make sure he installs deeper boxes. I do not agree that they take long. In fact i might say they would be faster as all the wires on them are terminated and just have to be wire nutted in. Since the wiring is less complex for 3 way or more switch setups they can be easier to install here to. Your dealer just need to help the electrician do a few and they will see how easy it is!

[msgreenf]

They are really the same. except that traditional light switches don't have to have a neutral and these do. So an extra 30 seconds each to connect the neutral.

[Bryan Phelps]

Thanks for the help everyone. He made a comment that he had to run extra wire for the 3 ways. Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

The home was built in 2003 so I assume every light switch would’ve had the proper wiring.

 

His quote:

 

Control 4 switches are significantly more labor intensive than standard switches. That is the reason for the charge. Some, depending on location and function, require rewiring boxes so that switch legs from 3-way/4 way switching are routed properly to control the lights correctly. Control 4 requires a neutral conductor that standard switches do not, requiring additional wiring and connections in each box.”

 

 

 

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[RyanE]

19 minutes ago, Bryan Phelps said:

Control 4 switches are significantly more labor intensive than standard switches. That is the reason for the charge. Some, depending on location and function, require rewiring boxes so that switch legs from 3-way/4 way switching are routed properly to control the lights correctly. Control 4 requires a neutral conductor that standard switches do not, requiring additional wiring and connections in each box.”

As others have mentioned, they shouldn't be any harder than wiring any other dimmer that requires a neutral.

That *is* still more labor intensive than wiring a dumb switch, which is what I assume he's comparing with, as opposed to a different dimmer.

He likely would have to figure out where is the load and where is the line for 3-way switches, although if they're run the way many do (one 3-way is an endpoint, the line and load at the other), it shouldn't be too difficult, although figuring out the first time does take some time.  If he didn't do the original wiring, that can be confusing.

Where I don't agree is that I don't think he should have to wire any extra wire for the 3-ways.  I can't think of any ways to wire a traditional 3-way that doesn't have enough conductors to power both a dimmer and a 2-button keypad, as well as switch the load.

There are only 2 ways to wire a 3-way:

• Line and Load at the same end, and a 3-wire traveler going to the other end, where a single 3-way switch uses all 3 conductors.
  • In this case, the dimmer is in the box with the line and load, and the black and white wires of the traveler power the 2-button keypad in the other box, the red conductor is not needed.
• Line and Load in separate boxes, with the 3-wire traveler between boxes. In this case, the dimmer can be placed in either box.
  • If the dimmer is in the box with the line, use the red traveler to carry the switched power to the load in the other box, with black and white powering the 2-button in the other box.
  • If the dimmer is in the box with the load, use the white and black conductors to power the dimmer, and the red traveler wire is unused.

A 4-way has all the same constraints.

RyanE

 

P.S.  I'm not an electrician, although I've wired both of my homes, and installed literally hundreds of dimmers.  Also, this is not professional advice, and is not officially Control4 advice.

[JSTRONG]

Same wiring. No additional work.

For 3 ways, if you have a 3 way light in place now, then its just replacing the dimmer on one switch and the other end install a aux keypad. the yellow is the traveler the other is to Neutral.

. The instructions included could not be more clear.

 

. If he is saying he needs to install wire for the 3-way then just put a dimmer in 1 location and the other put a configurable keypad.

 

[Time2Jet]

As others have mentioned, they shouldn't be any harder than wiring any other dimmer that requires a neutral.
That *is* still more labor intensive than wiring a dumb switch, which is what I assume he's comparing with, as opposed to a different dimmer.
He likely would have to figure out where is the load and where is the line for 3-way switches, although if they're run the way many do (one 3-way is an endpoint, the line and load at the other), it shouldn't be too difficult, although figuring out the first time does take some time.  If he didn't do the original wiring, that can be confusing.
Where I don't agree is that I don't think he should have to wire any extra wire for the 3-ways.  I can't think of any ways to wire a traditional 3-way that doesn't have enough conductors to power both a dimmer and a 2-button keypad, as well as switch the load.
There are only 2 ways to wire a 3-way:

• Line and Load at the same end, and a 3-wire traveler going to the other end, where a single 3-way switch uses all 3 conductors.
  • In this case, the dimmer is in the box with the line and load, and the black and white wires of the traveler power the 2-button keypad in the other box, the red conductor is not needed.
• Line and Load in separate boxes, with the 3-wire traveler between boxes. In this case, the dimmer can be placed in either box.
  • If the dimmer is in the box with the line, use the red traveler to carry the switched power to the load in the other box, with black and white powering the 2-button in the other box.
  • If the dimmer is in the box with the load, use the white and black conductors to power the dimmer, and the red traveler wire is unused.

A 4-way has all the same constraints.
RyanE
 
P.S.  I'm not an electrician, although I've wired both of my homes, and installed literally hundreds of dimmers.  Also, this is not professional advice, and is not officially Control4 advice.

Should be a sticky. Nice work @RyanE


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[dcovach]

It is a retrofit so always expect a few hiccups.  Keep in mind that in 2003 it may not have been code in your state for electricians to run neutral wires to ALL the switch box locations.  You will most certainly find them in multi-gang boxes but not always in the single gang (if it wasn't code at the time).   Not having a neutral at a switch box location means that you no longer can use a C4 switch (not to be confused with a dimmer).  Dimmers don't always need the neutral but you will almost be guaranteed a smoother dim in both directions with LED lights if an adaptive phase dimmer is used with an available neutral wire.  Sometimes you can get away with a forward phase dimmer (without neutral wire) and be pleased with the dimming in both directions or maybe only one.  Your dealer should know what lights you have and which lighting devices to select.

Some dealers will convert a dimmer to act like a switch (in the software) but I'm not sure how long a dimmer will last when used like this.  Maybe well past the warranty.  Hard to say.

 

[msgreenf]

Hire a new electrician

[Cyknight]

As you've noticed there is no singular clear answer.

-DEPENDING on the existing wiring, it should take little extra time to wire a C4 dimmer over a plain switch. I'd call it 3 minutes to deal with the neutral, ground wire and extra leads, plus fitting it all in and aligning it (which can be a bit trickier than with a plain switch) per device on average for an electrician not used to doing them.

In the end, that's hardly a huge amount of time.

-Multi-way gets a bit more complex, especially if you don't know how C4 works yet, and it may take a bit of investigating if you don't already know the existing wiring. If it was all done the same way originally, it'll be quicker after the first one or two, but if the place has been remodelled before etc, this CAN get time consuming, as each 'set' would have to be investigated separately - in the end, you can't just assume it's a certain way, you're dealing with high voltage after all.

If there's decent wiring in place, add an extra 15 minutes for a multi-way 'set' on top of the per device 'extra'.

This starts to add up more depending on how many there are.

 

The above two should give you something to use to calculate how much extra time is a decent benchmark to work from, but please note that it is by no way all encompassing, nor should you use it as a hammer to drive home numbers...

 

This whole story gets a lot different if there are locations where there are no neutrals, multi-ways that don't have full 12/3 pulls all the way through, mixed multi way setups (power and light feed in the same location in one, at each end in the next and so on)

 

3 hours ago, dcovach said:

Dimmers don't always need the neutral but you will almost be guaranteed a smoother dim in both directions with LED lights if an adaptive phase dimmer is used with an available neutral wire.

Not only that, not using a neutral with a dimmer will limit there max power output (to 80% off the top of my head). This may not be noticeable on LEDs as much as other fixtures (as a good number of LEDs max out at about 80-85% anyway)

[Cyknight]

4 hours ago, RyanE said:

There are only 2 ways to wire a 3-way:

• Line and Load at the same end, and a 3-wire traveler going to the other end, where a single 3-way switch uses all 3 conductors.
  • In this case, the dimmer is in the box with the line and load, and the black and white wires of the traveler power the 2-button keypad in the other box, the red conductor is not needed.
• Line and Load in separate boxes, with the 3-wire traveler between boxes. In this case, the dimmer can be placed in either box.
  • If the dimmer is in the box with the line, use the red traveler to carry the switched power to the load in the other box, with black and white powering the 2-button in the other box.
  • If the dimmer is in the box with the load, use the white and black conductors to power the dimmer, and the red traveler wire is unused.

Sorry, I wish there were:

Third way:

Light is in between the two switches, with a 3-wire from each switch to the light with feed from panel at one of the switches.

This forces the dimmer to be at the powerfeed, red traveller is used for switch leg to light, black and white are passed through to light, then on to second location, red from light to second location isn't used. MUST use a regular keypad, aux cannot be used.

Fourth way:

Light is in between the two switches, with a 3-wire from each switch to the light with feed from panel at  the light.

Dimmer can be on either side, power and neutral are sent to dimmer, red is switchleg, second location MUST be a standard keypad, cannot use aux.

 

In these two scenarios, more than two switch locations CAN make a difference, in that it may force the dimmer location AND you may be able to use aux in SOME of the locations, though not all (can't use them on the 'other' side of the light  from the dimmer).

Moreover, depending on the situation, it's also possible that you'll find white wires used as hot (if done properly, marked with a black label...IF) just to make the wiring even more fun to deal with.

[RyanE]

If you are using a keypad instead of an aux (which I would always recommend, I even forget the aux exists), the wiring is the same for the light in between the two, dimmer can still be on either side (all white are neutral, all black are hot, no matter where they are coming or going, red is dimmed).

For Scenario 4, same thing.  White and black from ceiling power both sides, whichever one is the dimmer uses red traveller for dimmed.

That's why I wouldn't spec aux, it's less flexible and more confusing.

RyanE

[ILoveC4]

In my experience, his comment about needing additional wiring isn't accurate.

That said, as someone who has wired several homes I've built and finished a few basements, I can tell you that I can wire regular light switches a hell of a lot faster than Control4 ones. The Control4 ones require more thought, the use of wire nuts takes more time, as does trying to crunch everything in to the box.

If I were an electrician I would charge more to install Control4 lighting than regular. This is just based on time, as for me it's absolutely slower going.

[HRT]

There's a lot of good info here explaining that yes they do take more time than standard 50 cent light switches. If they are being installed in new home with no switches already, I could see someone making the case they take the same time or roughly a little bit more. Except your discussing a retrofit and leaving out many details that would determine how much extra time. Here's just a few things I can think of off the top of my head on top of as mentioned above the mixture of different wiring schemes.

1. How many 3-5 gang locations do you have? As others have mentioned they are deeper and all wires might need to be trimmed and cleaned up to fit all dimmers inside if really long leads were left and long leads on neutrals and hots tied behind the switches.

2. Are you replacing all the dimmers in said 3-5 gangs? Or just doing 1 or 2 dimmers from a 3-5 gang in each room? The time to do one might be lets say 10 mins from taking off the plate to replacing the plate, but doing two might take 13 mins or 15 mins for 3 as you are sharing the time of the tasks between the dimmers instead of one, multiply all that extra time across a house it adds up.

3. If you are only replacing 1 or 2 from a 4-5 gang and the neutral is over on the left side of the box and you are replacing the far right two, you still are taking all the switches out to get to a wire the new dimmers to the neutral and then placing them all back level and fit even if you aren't changing those.

4. Adding in the mix of 3 ways, keypads the same concepts from 1-3 apply. Are the 3,4,5 way locations he's taking multiple spots off to rewire for one load, but not changing other dimmers in the boxes and so forth. Also with the aux dimmers or keypads where 3 way switches were you might not have a neutral at all, so while not hard as others have mentioned you just jump the other traveler as a neutral, but that's one or 4 more wire in the neutral wire nut, or a second neutral junction might need to be created. Which requires more wire management behind the much deeper dimmers.

 

Your dealer is saying it doesn't take longer, because clearly he is saying what you want to hear to get out of the conversation, he doesn't do electric installation hence hiring an electrician, he's not super versed in non brand new construction installs, or he's an amazingly fast and competent electrician installing c4 for years but doesn't have a license so he can't install yours.

Either way him setting a set amount per device is probably going to be cheaper for you than actual time and materiel which most electricians would want to charge in a retrofit.

 

[RyanE]

Valid points, retrofit is much more of a pain.

RyanE