Automation is killing your home automation model

[Pounce]

Tell us something personal about yourself? Do you have a career? Maybe retired? Family? Kids? Have you ever heard of this fun place called Reddit?

[wappinghigh]

2 hours ago, Pounce said:

Tell us something personal about yourself? Do you have a career? Maybe retired? Family? Kids? Have you ever heard of this fun place called Reddit?

What does that have to do with the original post?

Last I checked this was a public forum just like Reddit.

[Pounce]

35 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

What does that have to do with the original post?

Last I checked this was a public forum just like Reddit.

Don't be so defensive. This is a forum of people. At least I hope most of us are people. Maybe you have forgotten we are people and only see the forum as a place for you to have your id massaged by text from the ether. If you allow us to know you maybe we will be more willing to respond.

I think you would enjoy Reddit. It's an excellent place for your posting skills. 

[wappinghigh]

49 minutes ago, Pounce said:

Don't be so defensive. This is a forum of people. At least I hope most of us are people. Maybe you have forgotten we are people and only see the forum as a place for you to have your id massaged by text from the ether. If you allow us to know you maybe we will be more willing to respond.

I think you would enjoy Reddit. It's an excellent place for your posting skills. 

Sure.

I have been a user of the product for near on 10 years - maybe more.

I am a passionate believer in the product. I think it is awesome. 

I also think the product should be sold and supported from hi end retail or dealer shops.

I am a customer usually of hi end retail.

Sure I buy the odd book from Amazon or ebay and the odd electrical gear and computer from JBHifi (Equiv. to BestBuy here) but on the whole I hate Malls and low end retail.

I hardly ever go in them.

However there are times when I believe the best interests of the end consumer don't marry up with the best interests of the dealerships. 

And that dealers just don't appear to try (they understandably  have different outcomes and KPI's) or don't have the communication channels to pass on back to the company just some of the issues frustrating end users of the product. Nor do they have the time to sort out every single problem 24/7 x 365 days a year.

The no. one issue I have is the limited availability of knowledge and communication regarding how our Control4 platform works, how it is upgraded, why things work and don't, where it is heading in the future and most importantly if things will ever change ..

I have posted about this before. 

I just think it's a hideous act that product knowledge and the quest for this information, or feedback to a manufacturer is hindered in any way between consumers and product developers.

A complicated distribution model like the one Control4 uses of course is prone to this problem. 

Different stake-holders want different end outcomes.

Completely removing the dealers from the sales chain and offering the product online or via cheap retail (in essence packaging Composer Pro as part of the product) would remove one of the major bottlenecks in all this, but I am not convinced the platform would either succeed this way or be any better. It would most likely become worse.

It just hasn't been designed that way from the outset, and it would be no doubt a monumental task to re-engineer as a consumer only product.

So what would I like in the future?

1/ A more open and transparent corporate culture. 

and

2/ Home owners should be given access to their projects in full: the same knowledge, information, control and software, email notifications, KB articles (or whatever they are called) be given to them after the install as is available ongoing to their dealers.

If home owners chose to use that and screw it up...fine... the dealer gets more business sorting the mess.

If they don't chose to do that, that's fine too. 

The dealer model is not removed. It is updated to more equal one between the dealer and their client.

But at the end of the day, it is the end user consumers' product they have purchased in their house, so it should be their choice how to use it.

That is my fundamental belief.

W 

 

 

 

 

[Pounce]

3 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

I am a customer usually of hi end retail.

Sure I buy the odd book from Amazon or ebay and the odd electrical gear and computer from JBHifi (Equiv. to BestBuy here) but on the whole I hate Malls and low end retail.

This is the only bit that seems like it talks about you. I see your opinions, yes, but what about you as a person? What do you do when you are not talking about a product in your home? Model trains? Bird watching? Spelunking? Maybe you like baking or home dentistry.

I see a person frustrated. Sometimes our frustrations are misplaced or we project onto others. Life is short. I don't want to see you frustrated.  

[RyanE]

 

10 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

But at the end of the day, it is the end user consumers' product they have purchased in their house, so it should be their choice how to use it.

That is my fundamental belief.

I agree with this much: It is the end user consumer's product that they have purchased in their house from a company that espouses and has always espoused a dealer-only model.

The rest of it: TL;DR.

RyanE

 

[Control-IT]

Sometimes I feel like I’m weird.  This guy makes me feel normal.  Thanks for that.  

 If you want to be a DIY go buy a Dot and some Hue bulbs and have some fun otherwise just shut up already.  Some people have way too much time on their hands.  Hopefully I’ll be that lucky someday.  

[ecschnei]

On 4/6/2018 at 7:06 PM, dcovach said:

You forgot to suggest the echo dot

echo show is more intimate

[wappinghigh]

2 hours ago, Pounce said:

This is the only bit that seems like it talks about you. I see your opinions, yes, but what about you as a person? What do you do when you are not talking about a product in your home? Model trains? Bird watching? Spelunking? Maybe you like baking or home dentistry.

I see a person frustrated. Sometimes our frustrations are misplaced or we project onto others. Life is short. I don't want to see you frustrated.  

Again. What does this have to do with anything? Who I am. Or how I feel. I feel fine. And believe it or not I am normal. 

I could be in a wheel chair. I could be talking via a Control4 controlled computer like Stephen Hawking did. My whole life could be dependant on power switched by Control4.

So what? Why is that relevant?

Again

Why the personal questions and what does that have to do with the issues discussed?  

[Pounce]

Turing test. Fail.

[Brownbatsbreath]

I enjoy birdwatching. 

[cdcllc]

On 4/6/2018 at 7:17 PM, wappinghigh said:

My beef is the company doesn't allow end users to easily learn and maintain it...(and better themselves and their understanding of HA) themselves in the process using their own product ....you know the one.. the one you spent all that money on...(once it is installed)  and that the platform doesn't easily upgrade itself. 

hhhhhmmmmm . . . Hey Wap, some interesting posts this weekend and last.  I'm old enough to remember when local area networking with a PC was new.  You had to install your own card and IP stack and you had to get it all to work together.  And don't forget layer 1 - because it wasn't there either.  You had to hire people with knowledge to come do it for you.  Now, it's all automated and comes standard out of the box "plug and play".  So yes, with Amazon and Apple moving into the space, there will be evolution of lighting, av, etc. control toward the easier.  But until then, even 30+ year tech vets like me need help.

I think Control4's model still has legs.  I think "getting easier" will take longer in this space because there are so many different technologies that converge in this space (to name only a few):

• Lighting and lighting control
• A myriad of different AV manufacturers with standard control technology, but no control messaging standards.  IR has been out for decades and you still have to program each and every "universal remote" to the manufacturer's implementation.
• Evolving content standards HD, 4k, 8k, etc.
• Evolving content delivery standards and transports: HDCP, HDMI, HDBaseT, HDBase T over IP, etc.
• Evolving content providers: satellite, cable, internet, etc.
• Cameras, D/NVRs, NAS, etc.
• Networking
  • 802.11
  • ethernet
  • zigbee

Personally, I think "rocket science" only gets so easy.  I'm glad I have a dealer that integrated the Control4 product with all the other technologies I have in the house because I know I don't have the time to do it all, I don't have the time to keep up with the "state of the art" in all these areas, and I don't think I can get my skill level where it needs to be in all these areas not to screw something up.  Heck, I have full-size rack of equipment in the house - are you kidding me? Ha!  Who'd have ever thunk????

Rock on Wap . . .dreamers are often the change agents

[therockhr]

11 hours ago, Control-IT said:

Sometimes I feel like I’m weird.  This guy makes me feel normal.  Thanks for that.  

 If you want to be a DIY go buy a Dot and some Hue bulbs and have some fun otherwise just shut up already.  Some people have way too much time on their hands.  Hopefully I’ll be that lucky someday.  

You could always just ignore him instead of just telling him to shut up. But then you wouldn’t get your kudos and cool kid points for piling on. 

[ichbinbose]

As yet another hi margin product bites the dust (Oppo Blu-ray) this is unfortunately yet another nail in the coffin of your dealer only model.
 

I hate to burst your bubble however Oppo was never a hi margin product. In fact it was nearly a negative margin product by the time it was ordered and received.



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[Pounce]

1 hour ago, therockhr said:

You could always just ignore him instead of just telling him to shut up. But then you wouldn’t get your kudos and cool kid points for piling on. 

Kudos to you for setting him straight 

[Rexabyte]

@wappinghigh I had roughly the same issue, I've attached a driver that will let you use the serial and ir connections and if you add a Speaker Point to the project it'll let you use the audio outputs as it disables the advanced audio. It's a trade-off. This is just using the hc generic proxy and mapping the search targets for you.

annex4_hc300.c4i

EDIT: I guess it would help if i posted the 200 version.

annex4_hc200.c4i

[wappinghigh]

hhhhhmmmmm . . . Hey Wap, some interesting posts this weekend and last.  I'm old enough to remember when local area networking with a PC was new.  You had to install your own card and IP stack and you had to get it all to work together.  And don't forget layer 1 - because it wasn't there either.  You had to hire people with knowledge to come do it for you.  Now, it's all automated and comes standard out of the box "plug and play".  So yes, with Amazon and Apple moving into the space, there will be evolution of lighting, av, etc. control toward the easier.  But until then, even 30+ year tech vets like me need help.
I think Control4's model still has legs.  I think "getting easier" will take longer in this space because there are so many different technologies that converge in this space (to name only a few):

• Lighting and lighting control
• A myriad of different AV manufacturers with standard control technology, but no control messaging standards.  IR has been out for decades and you still have to program each and every "universal remote" to the manufacturer's implementation.
• Evolving content standards HD, 4k, 8k, etc.
• Evolving content delivery standards and transports: HDCP, HDMI, HDBaseT, HDBase T over IP, etc.
• Evolving content providers: satellite, cable, internet, etc.
• Cameras, D/NVRs, NAS, etc.
• Networking
  • 802.11
  • ethernet
  • zigbee

Personally, I think "rocket science" only gets so easy.  I'm glad I have a dealer that integrated the Control4 product with all the other technologies I have in the house because I know I don't have the time to do it all, I don't have the time to keep up with the "state of the art" in all these areas, and I don't think I can get my skill level where it needs to be in all these areas not to screw something up.  Heck, I have full-size rack of equipment in the house - are you kidding me? Ha!  Who'd have ever thunk????
Rock on Wap . . .dreamers are often the change agents

I ain’t proposing the end user get all the knowledge and product info *exclusive* of the dealer heaven forbid! Im simply proposing its SHARED. But oh no. You can’t SHARE knowledge. That’s taboo!


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[wappinghigh]

[mention=123761]wappinghigh[/mention] I had roughly the same issue, I've attached a driver that will let you use the serial and ir connections and if you add a Speaker Point to the project it'll let you use the audio outputs as it disables the advanced audio. It's a trade-off. This is just using the hc generic proxy and mapping the search targets for you.
annex4_hc300.c4i

EDIT: I guess it would help if i posted the 200 version.
annex4_hc200.c4i

Great.
Thanks for that!
But according to some I’m the ONLY one with problems with this company and it’s model !!!


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[wappinghigh]

I hate to burst your bubble however Oppo was never a hi margin product. In fact it was nearly a negative margin product by the time it was ordered and received.



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Wow I didn’t know that!

It’s great to have facts.

I like facts.

Another bit of Knowledge now shared with us all

Thanks!


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[THEORY]

34 minutes ago, wappinghigh said:

Great.
Thanks for that!
But according to some I’m the ONLY one with problems with this company and it’s model !!!


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You wanted to upgrade and use your older controllers.  You now have a driver that lets you do that, give it to your dealer and move forward.

You asked for answers and you now have them.  I think it's pretty disgusting some of the comments users are making toward you. That said you fuel it by not progressing the discussion beyond repeatedly asking the same thing even though you have more information.

Your goal of what you are trying to accomplish is totally lost in your own stubborness.  You make plenty of valid points, but it's tiring to participate in a onesided conversation.

[ILoveC4]

Wow I didn’t know that!

It’s great to have facts.

I like facts.

Another bit of Knowledge now shared with us all

Thanks!


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I’ve got a few “facts” I’d love to share with you.


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[wappinghigh]

You wanted to upgrade and use your older controllers.  You now have a driver that lets you do that, give it to your dealer and move forward. 

 

 

Well dog gone!!! Does that driver work and run the HC200? Edit ... Wait there it is in sign language ....^” the 200 version” I was about to put them up “for sale” for nicks ! Looks like I now have a price premium... folks can still use them in their projects!

 

 

 

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[wappinghigh]

Gee wiz! Looks like I missed that little helpful Control4 consumer announcement as well !!! (Bless this little C4 end user community! )


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[zaphod]

I think he does somewhat have a point.  Think about video distribution.  One of the options is now Videostorm where you use a Nvidia Shield as your receiver.  But if you have an Nvidia Shield at every TV in your house then why do you need video distribution since the Shield can be the source for almost anything you want?  The end of Oppo reinforces the fact that physical media is dying off which was one of the reasons to have a video distribution system.  Increasingly streaming sources can even replace live TV so saving money on cable boxes is also less of an issue - just use the AndroidTV apps for TV shows.  Even for sports services like MLBTV and NBA LP are getting better assuming you can get around the issue of local blackouts.  And if you have your own content ripped or downloaded then you can use Plex, Kodi, etc on the Shield.

I think there is now less reason for video distribution than there was in the past, and if I am right then that means less sales for C4 dealers as video distribution puts many $$$ in the pockets of dealers.

[sonic30101]

Your experience is much different than many c4 systems. I would say 90+% have sat or cabletv so distribution is still a thing. Also syncing the content between zones in open concept floorplans is important. Also you lose quality in streaming. Many wont care about the loss but a DTS or atmos, 4k hdr bluray in a room that can take advantage of it is worth it depending on what you are watching. If it is just regular tv I am ok with less quality, but if it is a marvel movie or John Wick additional quality is worth it if I am in the media room