Lighting Control & Design Question

[Hood]

Hi All,

Currently building a new home and we are beginning the electrical rough in.  I discovered 2 lighting challenges that I think could be resolved with a Control4 lighting solution (already planning on using Control4 in the house).  I need a recommendation and then design help from a dealer (preferably one of the friendly ones on this site ).

Here are the 2 situations:

1.  Have multiple flood and soffit lights around the perimeter of the house.  Electrician is asking how we want them wired and where to put light switches.  After researching Control4 lighting today, I think this would be a great opportunity for a wired lighting control situation.  I'd prefer to avoid having the light switches spread out all over the house for different zones.  I'd rather just have a control keypad with multiple buttons that would let me turn on any of the zones from 1 location.  So, how would I do this?  Is it possible to have 2 or 3 wired keypads controlling the same lights?

2.  Have a home theater room included in the house.  Will have 4 lighting circuits in the room (dimming).  Due to the sound isolation design, the designer is suggesting that I put a 4 gang light switch right outside the door to the room in a narrow/tight hallway.  There isn't a convenient spot to put this in the hallway.  What I would prefer to do is have all the lights controlled by a control keypad with multiple buttons.  I could always route individual switches to a my centralized media closet if I needed individual local control, but I would prefer to have this simplified Decora Wired Keypad right outside the door.  This could be the immediate local control, but a touchpad would be the main control for lights while in the room.  How would I do this?

I've read about the wired lighting solutions and it looks like I'd need the following:  2 slot centralized lighting panel, 8-Channel Relay module (for flood and soffit lights), 8-Channel Dimming module (for home theater lights), 8 port ethernet switch, Bus Ethernet Gateway, Bus Power Supply, 2 each 8 channel relay terminal block, Ethernet switch terminal block, 2 Decora Wired Keypads (1 for floodlights/soffit lights and 1 for the home theater).  Is this everything?

https://www.control4.com/docs/product/panelized-lighting/information-sheet/latest/panelized-lighting-information-sheet-rev-b.pdf

I've also read that I would need a dealer to generate the panel, module and load schedule reports based on my lighting loads.  Who could do this for me?  I would need it completed quickly.

https://www.control4.com/docs/product/panelized-lighting/professional-reference-guide/latest/panelized-lighting-professional-reference-guide-rev-b.pdf

Since my electrical rough in is currently in progress (I have the theater room and outdoor lighting on hold until I get more info on the Control4 solution), I need help rather urgently.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Stephen

[South Africa C4 user]

Yes, Control4 can do what you want (and much more in terms of lighting).

Yes, you need a dealer (preferably a local C4 dealer at this stage who can work with the electrician on this).

[Pounce]

You do not need panelized lighting in your scenario. Just C4 switches. You can locate the switching in the equipment room and have keypads and software control elsewhere. No problem. Do it.

If you want panelized lighting and haven't rocked the house yet, now is the time.

[Hood]

8 minutes ago, Pounce said:

You do not need panelized lighting in your scenario. Just C4 switches. You can locate the switching in the equipment room and have keypads and software control elsewhere. No problem. Do it.

Wow!  I didn't realize that was an option.  So, let me just clarify...I can hook up all these lights to C4 switches in a location of my choosing (out of the way somewhere - any location that would make sense) and then put the Decora keypads at a strategic location in the house? 

Do these keypads need to be the wired (C4-KCB-WH) or wireless (C4-KC120277 or C4-KD120-WH)?  I'm assuming wireless.  Same for the regular C4 switches installed out of the way?  

Thanks alot for the reply!

[Pounce]

Yes. Switches that are driving the actual load can be placed in any location according to code. The nature of the C4 switches is that they are controlled by the system. So any aspect of the system can switch them. That's keypads, software and any sort of orchestration and events like motion sensors.

[Hood]

Thank you SO much.  You just saved me a lot of cash and headaches!!!!  Really appreciate it.

[South Africa C4 user]

You can also wire one of the loads to the keypad and if they are switches (not dimmers) don’t put them in a cupboard / room e want silence as he switches click when the load is turned on and off.

[eggzlot]

I have all exterior light loads on c4 switches/dimmers in an attic.  I control them in the main floors w c4 multifunction keypads, experience/custom buttons or for most they just work on a timer and I never touch them

same deal in my master bathroom as there are 4-5 loads so most are in a water/fixture closet and only 1 by the door but it has 5 buttons on it.  Clean and simple

[elee532]

FYI, @chopedogg88 was super helpful and speedy in selling and programming some keypads and dimmer switches for me remotely.

[RAV]

Control4 KD120 solves most of what you want to do.

https://www.control4.com/solutions/products/wireless-keypads

Its a single light dimmer, and adds extra buttons all in a single decora size, the buttons get programmed for whatever you want: single light, group of lights, every light, audio off, etc.

For your theater, you could have one KD inside the room for 1 light, one outside the door for another light, and hide 2 control4 dimmers in your equipment closet. Each KD can then be programmed for individual or scenes. Done. Outside KD to ready the room, inside KD to adjust the room.

For outside floods, you could wire them all to an attic or close closet or whereever. Then have a KD by each door to do the decorative door landing light, and have a button for front floods, and one for rear floods, or however you want to do it.

Keeping in mind Zigbee range and layouts, which your dealer will address with you.

[Hood]

Thanks everyone.  These are all excellent ideas and they avoid all the extra kit and hassle of the wired option.  I really appreciate all the examples.

Question about zigbee range...adding switches between the C4 controller and the furthest spot away is the only way to extend range? Or is there another range extender option?

[Home Theater Advisors]

Do NOT put all of the hidden dimmers in one place or you will have a zigbee nightmare. It is solvable, but NOT recommended or supported. Space them out in areas local to each room, but hidden away


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Brownbatsbreath]

^^^This. 

You could put the theater switches in the same place. Just don’t do a house full of dimmers in the same closet. 

 

Also so if you have time to price it out,  count how many lighting loads you have and compare the price of panelized and dimmers. 

[Hood]

1 hour ago, Brownbatsbreath said:

Also so if you have time to price it out,  count how many lighting loads you have and compare the price of panelized and dimmers. 

Good suggestion.  I can imagine that there are alternating tipping points depending on how many total loads you have.  Have you ever conducted an evaluation on this for your setup?

[Brownbatsbreath]

Exactly. It’s been a long time since I’ve dealt with this stuff, but I seem to remember a tipping point. 

Also remember the individual dimmers/switches communicate wirelessly. So you’ll need to consider wireless coverage, meaning control4’s own zigbee network, not wifi.

The panelized modules will be physically connected to the main processor over the network and then you can have wired, or wireless keypads. 

Are you planning on using Control4 remotes for AV control? This is something to consider when laying things out as the dimmers and wireless keypads will strengthen this wireless network. If you’re already planning on installing c4 dimmers throughout then zigbee coverage should be less of an issue. That’s why it’s a good idea to get a floor plan and what you expect scope wise to a dealer. 

[chopedogg88]

On 1/19/2019 at 6:39 PM, Hood said:

Thanks everyone.  These are all excellent ideas and they avoid all the extra kit and hassle of the wired option.  I really appreciate all the examples.

Question about zigbee range...adding switches between the C4 controller and the furthest spot away is the only way to extend range? Or is there another range extender option?

There are other ways to extend the zigbee range, for example the Z2IO's act as range extenders, and you can add secondary controllers such as CA1's or EA1's to act as zigbee access points.

[blub]

You could even place a remote somewhere on the wall to extend Zigbee range, also most motion sensors also act as a mesh extender.

[msgreenf]

You could even place a remote somewhere on the wall to extend Zigbee range, also most motion sensors also act as a mesh extender.

No most motion sensors do not due to battery. Nor do remotes.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Hood]

3 hours ago, chopedogg88 said:

There are other ways to extend the zigbee range, for example the Z2IO's act as range extenders, and you can add secondary controllers such as CA1's or EA1's to act as zigbee access points.

So, if I used a CA-1 or EA-1 for extending the range, how would it connect to the primary controller?  Cat6 or Wireless?  Just trying to make sure I have all my rough-in wiring in place to provide flexibility until I make final hardware selections.

[blub]

No most motion sensors do not due to battery. Nor do remotes.

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

Oops. Thx.

[msgreenf]

2 hours ago, Hood said:

So, if I used a CA-1 or EA-1 for extending the range, how would it connect to the primary controller?  Cat6 or Wireless?  Just trying to make sure I have all my rough-in wiring in place to provide flexibility until I make final hardware selections.

it can be either; but cat 6 is the best option

[RAV]

Wired extenders are best, and both CA1 and EA1 can be POE. Typically EA1s for secondary TV systems, CA1 if no HDMI output, IR or audio is needed, thus cheaper.

Don't put your zigbee extender next to your WiFi, and wire for as many locations as is practical, wire is cheap, and between WiFi and Zigbee and who knows what else, you'll find you need more drops than you might think. While zigbee is a mesh unlike traditional wifi, if you wire for it like it's a wifi bubble, then you'll be covered, and typically a minimum of 1 zigbee radio per floor of average size.

[AK1]

If this is a new home and the majority of lighting will be controlled via keypads, then it makes sense to do a panelized system from the beginning rather than hiding dimmers all over the house. And likely somewhat cheaper.

[Hood]

I’m counting I would want 8 switched light circuits and 8 dimmed light circuits.  I would want 6 keypads. Now, I just need help with a rough cost comparison for wired vs wireless.  

It’s a 5100 sq ft 2 story home with 6 bedrooms and the media closet is in one corner of the first floor.  I’ve got 4 wireless WiFi hubs around the house to ensure coverage ( 2 down and 2 up), so I’m worried the wireless switch solution will require similar coverage and potentially drive cost to be equivalent with a wired solution.  Obviously the other benefit of wired is eliminating hidden switches in closets around the house.

The only dealer in my city is out on a “job” all week and is unavailable to quote this for me.  I live in a smaller city so I wouldn’t likely use them for purchase or programming as they Only offer Control4 as a side business for a larger home audio store.  I want to get help from one of the “integrators for hire” on these forums for all the programming and purchase help.  

Is there a dealer here that I can PM my floor plan and get some rough pricing/purchasing help for the two options?

[AK1]

This is a modest amount of Control4 lighting for a 5100 ft2 house, so on a cost benefit basis I would be inclined to go with wireless line of lighting products vs panelized. Feel free to PM.