msgreenf Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Why should it be any more than $150 for a C4 controller/ FireTV. Even if you replace it every two years that is cheaper than what you pay for an EA-1 today plus a Roku.You are leaving out functions that a controller has in a firetv cube and the business of firetv cube ie the money making part is not the hardware Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Why should it be any more than $150 for a C4 controller/ FireTV. Even if you replace it every two years that is cheaper than what you pay for an EA-1 today plus a Roku.The Gillette school of business Vs the making money selling hardware school of business. Fire TV gets the user to buy movies. The loss leader hardware is paid for in content purchase. C4 needs to make money selling hardware, that is what it does. Apple makes money selling hardware. It also makes money selling content but does not loss lead on the hardware. Neo1738 and msgreenf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Africa C4 user Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 hours ago, eggzlot said: at the speed of release for C4 controllers I think I am ok with getting a streaming stick for under $100 Off the top of my head, to get streaming audio services to C4 is not a cost under $100. Yes you can do an echo dot or a chromcast audio device or something, but I mean to go into your app/touchscreen and be able to select pandora, siriusxm, radio, spotify, deezer, etc and get a premium experience. To see the apps and be able to navigate that way - you need a Sonos Connect ($300-$400 for just ONE Stream) or VSSL or Nuvo or something like those devices. Not a $40-$100 streaming stick. Is native Tidal or Deezer not streaming audio services that are native with no extra cost? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 43 minutes ago, South Africa C4 user said: Is native Tidal or Deezer not streaming audio services that are native with no extra cost? no extra cost for hardware when I go to add music I can add Deezer or Tidal I dont use either service, so they may charge you Just saying to get streaming video services you can buy a stick for $40 and get Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, and 100's of other optins. What $40 stick gets you those services (Without airplay/google cast or whatever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 I think you will C4 shift to getting more or its revenue from an annual subscription(s). Certainly they have been moving in this direction with more of the new features requiring 4Sight. That's not really a big surprise as the entire tech sector is going in this direction. Apple is going in this direction as well - they are exepected to soon announce a bundle of news, TV and music. And Apple is not forcing you onto their hardware as much as they used to as you can get Apple Music and Apple TV+ on non-Apple hardware. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 2 hours ago, msgreenf said: 3 hours ago, zaphod said: Why should it be any more than $150 for a C4 controller/ FireTV. Even if you replace it every two years that is cheaper than what you pay for an EA-1 today plus a Roku. You are leaving out functions that a controller has in a firetv cube and the business of firetv cube ie the money making part is not the hardware What functions does an EA-1 as a secondary controller have that a FireTV doesn't? Serial control? Zigbee mesh extension? I am envisioning the Fire TV being able to act as an audio endpoint in C4, it certainly has the capability to do so via standalone apps for stuff like Spotif, Amazon Music, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, zaphod said: What functions does an EA-1 as a secondary controller have that a FireTV doesn't? Serial control? Zigbee mesh extension? I am envisioning the Fire TV being able to act as an audio endpoint in C4, it certainly has the capability to do so via standalone apps for stuff like Spotif, Amazon Music, etc. big portion of using an EA1 is zigbee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 But then how does the Zigbee in the EA-1 help me if I already have an EA-3 and dozens of C4 light switches, keypads, remotes, etc around my house? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
msgreenf Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, zaphod said: But then how does the Zigbee in the EA-1 help me if I already have an EA-3 and dozens of C4 light switches, keypads, remotes, etc around my house? it doesn't help everyone - no hardware product is perfect for 100% of the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Is native Tidal or Deezer not streaming audio services that are native with no extra cost? no extra cost for hardware when I go to add music I can add Deezer or Tidal I dont use either service, so they may charge you Just saying to get streaming video services you can buy a stick for $40 and get Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, and 100's of other optins. What $40 stick gets you those services (Without airplay/google cast or whatever).Taking a guess here, but I think you could see them allowing major streaming services inside the controller. It will take a good while. The SONOS ZP / Play solution was defacto for a good while. Roku is on Gen 8 of their streaming hardware. C4 is not going to be anywhere near leading edge on this. The streaming apps that could remain allow use through the C4 GUI, that's the SONOS and Spotify falling out with C4. Also who writes the code for the audio streaming services. I would anticipate that you don't want a buggy video streaming app / ui-ux taking down your controller. You would need a good sandbox there and Netflix is very particular about their ui/ux and the auto play and auto preview functionality. South Africa C4 user 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eggzlot Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 47 minutes ago, SMHarman said: Taking a guess here, but I think you could see them allowing major streaming services inside the controller. It will take a good while. The SONOS ZP / Play solution was defacto for a good while. Roku is on Gen 8 of their streaming hardware. C4 is not going to be anywhere near leading edge on this. The streaming apps that could remain allow use through the C4 GUI, that's the SONOS and Spotify falling out with C4. Also who writes the code for the audio streaming services. I would anticipate that you don't want a buggy video streaming app / ui-ux taking down your controller. You would need a good sandbox there and Netflix is very particular about their ui/ux and the auto play and auto preview functionality. there is fragmentation too - I was a former Hulu Live TV user, and only Roku had their latest UI with the better live TV Guide. If you were using Hulu on other devices say any Android box/TV be it Shield, built in TV or a fork like FireTV - it was not available for about 4-5 months after it was available on Roku. Heck when I first starting using Hulu you could not watch live TV on certain Android Hulu instances. I could only imagine where C4 would fall if they were to offer video streaming services. They would be a very low player in the game and who knows what updates they may have access too at what point. Again to add hardware for audio streaming is expensive so native services make sense. Hardware to add video services is cheap so less of a need for it to be in the controller. As you said Netflix is very much on top of the experience, as is Hulu, and I am sure others. Not sure it would be pretty to have C4 controllers with these features built in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lippavisual Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Why on earth you'd want to have the cheapest electronics (FireCube) run your home is beyond me? Every and I mean every Amazon electronic device that I've purchased has crapped out on me well before the warranty periods. It was commonplace for me to purchase new Fire tablets every 6 months for my kids because they would literally just stop working. Never again and moved on from this crap years ago. msgreenf and SMHarman 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Hardware to add video services is cheap so less of a need for it to be in the controller. As you said Netflix is very much on top of the experience, as is Hulu, and I am sure others. Not sure it would be pretty to have C4 controllers with these features built in.An valid point. A decade ago video hardware was expensive so video distribution was a thing. Now stick a Tivo Stream and Roku or ATV and forget about distribution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 8 hours ago, msgreenf said: Roku universal search does this This is the closest thing, but I've found it to not be flawless either, as apps get changed by developers this is sometimes better or worse. But the difference is is that is on the actual player. Vs an external search option that can get the info from a player, and then send commands to go back to it.... Do we truly want C4 to get into the streaming box service? As mentioned, you'd be looking at a high price unit as C4 doesn't make loss leading hardware, so now people are going to go 'but I can get this (insert device of choice) for.... Plus, original C4 Media Player anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 11 hours ago, SMHarman said: Have you tried https://www.justwatch.com/us Yay, someone that's sort of doing it (as it 'just' tells you where you can watch it, not have you watch it - nor auto filter for subscriptions you actually have without input) for The US, and a few other now let's create a universal one world wide.... And have you search it on your TV, and select it direct though the interface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 1 minute ago, Cyknight said: Yay, someone that's sort of doing it for The US, now let's create a universal one world wide.... They've got one for us hosers too, eh? https://www.justwatch.com/ca They appear to be based in Berlin and are available in something like 38 countries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Just now, zaphod said: They've got one for us hosers too, eh? https://www.justwatch.com/ca They appear to be based in Berlin and are available in something like 38 countries. Yup, already edited my post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 And while it's a neat concept, and a good initiative, until it allows selecting and watching directly, and can be transferred off of a webpage to work in C4.... Maybe @alanchow wants to look into that . Well once he's not so insanely busy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 Yay, someone that's sort of doing it (as it 'just' tells you where you can watch it, not have you watch it - nor auto filter for subscriptions you actually have without input) for The US, and a few other now let's create a universal one world wide.... And have you search it on your TV, and select it direct though the interface. They've got one for us hosers too, eh?https://www.justwatch.com/ca They appear to be based in Berlin and are available in something like 38 countries.The US and a few others. Like 38 countries. That's likely the majority of the streaming world. Once you are signed in it remembers which subscriptions you have. And being as the deep linking database exists and is being maintained turning this from a website / app calling those links to a C4 driver surely isn't the most impossible idea using the my movies interface and search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanchow Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 25 minutes ago, Cyknight said: And while it's a neat concept, and a good initiative, until it allows selecting and watching directly, and can be transferred off of a webpage to work in C4.... Maybe @alanchow wants to look into that . Well once he's not so insanely busy We're always busy now that we are working on 6 month cycles (ISE / CEDIA). The question is now do you want to wait 6 weeks versus do you want to wait 10 weeks before we start working on a project Back on topic. We spoke to the guys at Caavo (https://caavo.com/) at CEDIA Expo. Their product does just this. I asked them to expose their API so that we can do this on all the control systems we support but at the moment they are using Crestron's voice input to display the data on their own onscreen UI. Hopefully sometime in the future they will have implemented bi-directional communications and if so we'll develop a driver for them. msgreenf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyknight Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 30 minutes ago, alanchow said: The question is now do you want to wait 6 weeks versus do you want to wait 10 weeks HAH! Not MY question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Fact is that in the last 24 hours this thread has ascertained that the data set mostly exists and that Alan is already thinking about this. That's progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 So what's Caavo' business model? How can they make money on this for $160 and no sub fee? And to get back to some of the stuff I was talking about above - why couldn't Caavo just be an app on a Fire TV Cube which has IR blasters and is the same price, plus also gives you streaming capabilities. It looks like Caavo just gives you the unified search plus IR blasting capabilities. I wonder if Logitech/Harmony will also get into this space? Or if Amazon will expand the capabilites to do more of what I describe as it kind of needs the Cube to be both running apps and to be running at a lower level to control the entire AV system and search. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMHarman Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 So what's Caavo' business model? How can they make money on this for $160 and no sub fee? And to get back to some of the stuff I was talking about above - why couldn't Caavo just be an app on a Fire TV Cube which has IR blasters and is the same price, plus also gives you streaming capabilities. It looks like Caavo just gives you the unified search plus IR blasting capabilities. I wonder if Logitech/Harmony will also get into this space? Or if Amazon will expand the capabilites to do more of what I describe as it kind of needs the Cube to be both running apps and to be running at a lower level to control the entire AV system and search.Off topic, but hey Zaphod, sorry about your planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaphod Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 minute ago, SMHarman said: Off topic, but hey Zaphod, sorry about your planet. The guardians of this Mostly Harmless planet aren't doing such a great job these days either. Time for another Pan Galactic Gargle Blaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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